The Truth Contradiction

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Advocate
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Re: The Truth Contradiction

Post by Advocate »

[quote=Eodnhoj7 post_id=608545 time=1668120248 user_id=14533]
[quote=Advocate post_id=607619 time=1667575217 user_id=15238]
[quote=Eodnhoj7 post_id=600232 time=1665090011 user_id=14533]
Given truth A is not the same as truth T it necessitates that truth is contradictory given both A and T are truths.
[/quote]

A truth is an instance of The Truth such as a fact or perspective.
[/quote]

If truth occurs in instances then this is a truth as it is an instance; the single truth thus diverges, ie contrasts and contradicts, through many instances.
[/quote]

The Truth is whatever's most concurrent between all available perspectives, or as close to it as you can get.
Eodnhoj7
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Re: The Truth Contradiction

Post by Eodnhoj7 »

Advocate wrote: Fri Nov 11, 2022 11:00 pm
Eodnhoj7 wrote: Thu Nov 10, 2022 11:44 pm
Advocate wrote: Fri Nov 04, 2022 4:20 pm A truth is an instance of The Truth such as a fact or perspective.
If truth occurs in instances then this is a truth as it is an instance; the single truth thus diverges, ie contrasts and contradicts, through many instances.
The Truth is whatever's most concurrent between all available perspectives, or as close to it as you can get.
And perspectives contradict.
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Re: The Truth Contradiction

Post by Advocate »

[quote=Eodnhoj7 post_id=610264 time=1669228906 user_id=14533]
[quote=Advocate post_id=608651 time=1668204003 user_id=15238]
[quote=Eodnhoj7 post_id=608545 time=1668120248 user_id=14533]


If truth occurs in instances then this is a truth as it is an instance; the single truth thus diverges, ie contrasts and contradicts, through many instances.
[/quote]

The Truth is whatever's most concurrent between all available perspectives, or as close to it as you can get.
[/quote]

And perspectives contradict.
[/quote]

No, they compliment. They may only apparently contradict, not actually.
Skepdick
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Re: The Truth Contradiction

Post by Skepdick »

Advocate wrote: Wed Nov 23, 2022 11:28 pm No, they compliment. They may only apparently contradict, not actually.
How do the perspectives "Lets kill Advocate" and "Lets not kill Advocate" complement?

In so far as they propose incompatible actions/outcomes they seem very much contradictory.
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Re: The Truth Contradiction

Post by Advocate »

[quote=Skepdick post_id=610317 time=1669283229 user_id=17350]
[quote=Advocate post_id=610290 time=1669242536 user_id=15238]
No, they compliment. They may only apparently contradict, not actually.
[/quote]
How do the perspectives "Lets kill Advocate" and "Lets not kill Advocate" complement?

In so far as they propose incompatible actions/outcomes they seem very much contradictory.
[/quote]

That's a matter of two different people's future desires conflicting, not reality contradicting itself. And the fact there desires point in opposite directions doesn't imply reality is paradoxical even though both desires are real.

Does a line that points both right and left contradict itself? Does the fact that the sun circling the Earth causes day and night mean the sun is contradicting itself? Opposition isn't contradiction. Contradiction isn't paradox.
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Re: The Truth Contradiction

Post by Skepdick »

Advocate wrote: Thu Nov 24, 2022 1:51 pm That's a matter of two different people's future desires conflicting, not reality contradicting itself.
Both people a part of reality. So it's one part of reality contradicting another part of reality.

It is reality contradicting itself.
Advocate wrote: Thu Nov 24, 2022 1:51 pm And the fact there desires point in opposite directions doesn't imply reality is paradoxical even though both desires are real.
I don't know if the directions are "opposite", but they are definitely incompatible.

It's not possible that we arrive at a future where we've killed you AND we haven't killed you.

Advocate wrote: Thu Nov 24, 2022 1:51 pm Does a line that points both right and left contradict itself?
Lines don't manifest incompatible futures.
Advocate wrote: Thu Nov 24, 2022 1:51 pm Does the fact that the sun circling the Earth causes day and night mean the sun is contradicting itself? Opposition isn't contradiction. Contradiction isn't paradox.
Day/night is periodic modality. After day comes a night, then comes day agay. Dead/alive isn't periodic. Once you die you don't become alive again.

Sophist.
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Agent Smith
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Re: The Truth Contradiction

Post by Agent Smith »

Maybe should begin here: (p & ~p), a contradiction.
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Re: The Truth Contradiction

Post by Skepdick »

Agent Smith wrote: Thu Nov 24, 2022 4:48 pm Maybe should begin here: (p & ~p), a contradiction.
That's a non-starter. How should we interpret those symbols?

Could it be: my indicator is ON (p) and (&) not ON (-p) ?
Or perhaps: It's raining (p) and (&) not raining (-p).

Dialetheists would certainly like to have a word with you!

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dialetheism
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Agent Smith
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Re: The Truth Contradiction

Post by Agent Smith »

Skepdick wrote: Thu Nov 24, 2022 6:02 pm
Agent Smith wrote: Thu Nov 24, 2022 4:48 pm Maybe should begin here: (p & ~p), a contradiction.
That's a non-starter. How should we interpret those symbols?

Could it be: my indicator is ON (p) and (&) not ON (-p) ?
Or perhaps: It's raining (p) and (&) not raining (-p).

Dialetheists would certainly like to have a word with you!

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dialetheism
:)

I've heard of dialethiesm and also paraconsistent logic (so-called contradiction tolerant logics) but there doesn't seem to be any resources online on these most interesting ways of reasoning. Do you perchance have a link or two that have basic info on them?

p & ~p is the standard well-formed formula that states/expresses a contradiction where lower-case "p" is a statement variable and "~" is negation.
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Re: The Truth Contradiction

Post by Skepdick »

Agent Smith wrote: Sat Nov 26, 2022 7:35 am
Skepdick wrote: Thu Nov 24, 2022 6:02 pm
Agent Smith wrote: Thu Nov 24, 2022 4:48 pm Maybe should begin here: (p & ~p), a contradiction.
That's a non-starter. How should we interpret those symbols?

Could it be: my indicator is ON (p) and (&) not ON (-p) ?
Or perhaps: It's raining (p) and (&) not raining (-p).

Dialetheists would certainly like to have a word with you!

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dialetheism
:)

I've heard of dialethiesm and also paraconsistent logic (so-called contradiction tolerant logics) but there doesn't seem to be any resources online on these most interesting ways of reasoning. Do you perchance have a link or two that have basic info on them?
SEP is always a good start: https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/logic-paraconsistent

Agent Smith wrote: Sat Nov 26, 2022 7:35 am p & ~p is the standard well-formed formula that states/expresses a contradiction where lower-case "p" is a statement variable and "~" is negation.
OK, but then there is nothing special about "contradictions". Like I said - that formula can be used to represents/describe every-day human experiences

My indicator is ON (p) and (&) not ON (-p).
It's raining (p) and (&) not raining (-p).
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Agent Smith
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Re: The Truth Contradiction

Post by Agent Smith »

Skepdick wrote: Sat Nov 26, 2022 7:52 am
Agent Smith wrote: Sat Nov 26, 2022 7:35 am
Skepdick wrote: Thu Nov 24, 2022 6:02 pm
That's a non-starter. How should we interpret those symbols?

Could it be: my indicator is ON (p) and (&) not ON (-p) ?
Or perhaps: It's raining (p) and (&) not raining (-p).

Dialetheists would certainly like to have a word with you!

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dialetheism
:)

I've heard of dialethiesm and also paraconsistent logic (so-called contradiction tolerant logics) but there doesn't seem to be any resources online on these most interesting ways of reasoning. Do you perchance have a link or two that have basic info on them?
SEP is always a good start: https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/logic-paraconsistent

Agent Smith wrote: Sat Nov 26, 2022 7:35 am p & ~p is the standard well-formed formula that states/expresses a contradiction where lower-case "p" is a statement variable and "~" is negation.
OK, but then there is nothing special about "contradictions". Like I said - that formula can be used to represents/describe every-day human experiences

My indicator is ON (p) and (&) not ON (-p).
It's raining (p) and (&) not raining (-p).
I quite don't get what you mean here. The conversation is about to spiral outta control at my end mon ami. :lol:

Contradiction is, as per philosophers, a big No-No! If I say water is a liquid and water isn't a liquid, something terrible has gone wrong inside me brain.
Skepdick
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Re: The Truth Contradiction

Post by Skepdick »

Agent Smith wrote: Sun Nov 27, 2022 12:24 pm I quite don't get what you mean here. The conversation is about to spiral outta control at my end mon ami. :lol:

Contradiction is, as per philosophers, a big No-No!
Who cares about philosophers' prescriptions?

Agent Smith wrote: Sun Nov 27, 2022 12:24 pm If I say water is a liquid and water isn't a liquid, something terrible has gone wrong inside me brain.
Why? Water has different phases. Liquid or non-liquid water is still water.

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Agent Smith
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Re: The Truth Contradiction

Post by Agent Smith »

Skepdick wrote: Sun Nov 27, 2022 1:21 pm
Agent Smith wrote: Sun Nov 27, 2022 12:24 pm I quite don't get what you mean here. The conversation is about to spiral outta control at my end mon ami. :lol:

Contradiction is, as per philosophers, a big No-No!
Who cares about philosophers' prescriptions?

Agent Smith wrote: Sun Nov 27, 2022 12:24 pm If I say water is a liquid and water isn't a liquid, something terrible has gone wrong inside me brain.
Why? Water has different phases. Liquid or non-liquid water is still water.

Image
You have a point; there's something amiss in denying contradictions entry into the ideaverse. I'm not saying we should accept them though for if we do pandemonium ensues if you catch me drift mate.

Have you read paraconsistent logic to sufficient depth to understand what exactly it means to say that it's both true that water is liquid and water is not liquid?
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Re: The Truth Contradiction

Post by Skepdick »

Agent Smith wrote: Sun Nov 27, 2022 6:08 pm You have a point; there's something amiss in denying contradictions entry into the ideaverse. I'm not saying we should accept them though for if we do pandemonium ensues if you catch me drift mate.
I think claims of "pandemonium" amount to fearmongering. Language is recursive - contradictions are built-in. It's a feature, not a bug. To eliminate contradiction is to eliminate self-reference, but... it would be pretty weird if the discipline which calls itself "the humanities" banned us from talking about our own humanity, don't you think?
Agent Smith wrote: Sun Nov 27, 2022 6:08 pm Have you read paraconsistent logic to sufficient depth to understand what exactly it means to say that it's both true that water is liquid and water is not liquid?
Your particular example doesn't even require para-consistent logic. Liguidity and non-liquidity are properties of water. To say "water is NOT liquid" is to say "water is either gas or solid".

And to say "water is liquid AND not liquid" is to point out that the diagram I showed you has a clear line separating the three distinct phases.
The line represents precisely the uncertain time-period in which water is busy phase-transitioning. The time-period in which the change occurs but you aren't quite certain whether is either gas or solid.
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Re: The Truth Contradiction

Post by Agent Smith »

Skepdick wrote: Mon Nov 28, 2022 9:47 am
Agent Smith wrote: Sun Nov 27, 2022 6:08 pm You have a point; there's something amiss in denying contradictions entry into the ideaverse. I'm not saying we should accept them though for if we do pandemonium ensues if you catch me drift mate.
I think claims of "pandemonium" amount to fearmongering. Language is recursive - contradictions are built-in. It's a feature, not a bug. To eliminate contradiction is to eliminate self-reference, but... it would be pretty weird if the discipline which calls itself "the humanities" banned us from talking about our own humanity, don't you think?
Agent Smith wrote: Sun Nov 27, 2022 6:08 pm Have you read paraconsistent logic to sufficient depth to understand what exactly it means to say that it's both true that water is liquid and water is not liquid?
Your particular example doesn't even require para-consistent logic. Liguidity and non-liquidity are properties of water. To say "water is NOT liquid" is to say "water is either gas or solid".

And to say "water is liquid AND not liquid" is to point out that the diagram I showed you has a clear line separating the three distinct phases.
The line represents precisely the uncertain time-period in which water is busy phase-transitioning. The time-period in which the change occurs but you aren't quite certain whether is either gas or solid.
You're right of course and on target mon ami. Also it looks like I need to be more specific.

Lemme try again.

1. x > 2
2. x < 2

Do the above 2 statements constitute a contradiction? If no, why? If yes, why is it, if it is, problematic to logic?
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