Nothing to something must be possible

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bahman
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Re: Nothing to something must be possible

Post by bahman »

Harbal wrote: Sun Jul 31, 2022 7:35 pm
bahman wrote: Sun Jun 12, 2022 3:19 pm To show this I have to show three things: (1) The universe cannot be eternal, (2) the universe has a beginning, and (3) the act of creation is logically impossible.
Nobody has ever been able to conclusively show any of those things, bahman, what on earth has made you think you are going to be the first to do it.
Because I made a clear argument for each. Do you want to discuss them?
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Harbal
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Re: Nothing to something must be possible

Post by Harbal »

bahman wrote: Sun Jul 31, 2022 7:51 pm
Because I made a clear argument for each. Do you want to discuss them?
No thank you.
iambiguous
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Re: Nothing to something must be possible

Post by iambiguous »

Why there’s something rather than nothing
By Joel Achenbach at the Washington Post
Right now I’m halfway through Jim Holt’s terrific book “Why Does the World Exist?,” which is entirely about the something-nothing question. It’s a wild ride, and romping great fun. You get the impression that Holt thought about this issue until his skull began to crack.
Now this is a truly crucial observation. Aside from the objectivists among us who actually do believe that how they think about nothing, something and everything that there now is reflects the whole truth, the more sophisticated minds can't help but grasp just how mind-boggling existence qua existence itself is.

How do you wrap your head around it? In other words, if you don't just take the shortcut to God.

Everything that we note around us once did not exist. Then it did. Then over time it will not again. It might take billions of years before planet Earth is gone but it is predicted that the Sun on the way to its own demise will swallow the Earth whole. At best we can reduce everything down to atoms and to subatomic particulars that do their thing...forever?

But existence itself? In a No God universe? How can it either always have existed or come into existence out of nothing at all? Which rendition seems the most preposterous?
There is an element here of a travelogue, and even a dining guide – the people who wonder about existence tend to drink a lot – but most of all it’s a tireless rumination on a single, unanswerable (sorry) question. Holt describes how philosophers, theologians and cosmologists have tried to shinny up this greased pole for thousands of years.
And we too are all along for the ride, aren't we? Is it an unanswerable question? Hell, we don't even know whether any answer we do come up with isn't the only answer we were ever able to come up with. Why? Because all the matter that encompasses "everything there is" [whether from nothing or always around] is inherently, necessarily subsumed in the immutable laws of matter itself.

Then back to those here who insist their pole is anything but greased. They've climbed all the way to the top. How? By constructing a "world of words" "in their head" allowing them to "think up" the solution.

Then when you ask them to demonstrate it, all they have available for you are yet more "arguments".
Age
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Re: Nothing to something must be possible

Post by Age »

bahman wrote: Sun Jul 31, 2022 7:51 pm
Harbal wrote: Sun Jul 31, 2022 7:35 pm
bahman wrote: Sun Jun 12, 2022 3:19 pm To show this I have to show three things: (1) The universe cannot be eternal, (2) the universe has a beginning, and (3) the act of creation is logically impossible.
Nobody has ever been able to conclusively show any of those things, bahman, what on earth has made you think you are going to be the first to do it.
Because I made a clear argument for each. Do you want to discuss them?
A 'clear' argument is NOT a 'sound and valid' argument, and it is only 'sound and valid' arguments that show, or prove, things.
Age
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Re: Nothing to something must be possible

Post by Age »

iambiguous wrote: Fri Aug 05, 2022 7:26 pm Why there’s something rather than nothing
By Joel Achenbach at the Washington Post
Right now I’m halfway through Jim Holt’s terrific book “Why Does the World Exist?,” which is entirely about the something-nothing question. It’s a wild ride, and romping great fun. You get the impression that Holt thought about this issue until his skull began to crack.
Now this is a truly crucial observation. Aside from the objectivists among us who actually do believe that how they think about nothing, something and everything that there now is reflects the whole truth, the more sophisticated minds can't help but grasp just how mind-boggling existence qua existence itself is.
What is 'it', which you are boggled about here, exactly?

And, the oxymoron and self-contradictory claim that, 'the more sophisticated minds are the boggled ones', speaks for itself.

1. How the whole Truth is obtained is, essentially, very simple and very easy.

2. In relation to why there is something rather than nothing, it is extremely simple and easy to KNOW and to UNDERSTAND.

3. Because of what the Universe is fundamentally made up of, and because of how the Universe actually works, there can only be 'something'.

4. Existence exists, or there is Existence, because it could not be any other way.
iambiguous wrote: Fri Aug 05, 2022 7:26 pm How do you wrap your head around it? In other words, if you don't just take the shortcut to God.
Very easily and very simply.

1. If you were more specific than just saying 'it', then I could better explain to you how you exactly do so-call ' wrap your head around 'it' '.

2. God is just a word that refers to some 'thing'.
iambiguous wrote: Fri Aug 05, 2022 7:26 pm Everything that we note around us once did not exist.
This is not true, but while you actually do believe that how you think about nothing, something and everything here now reflects the whole truth, then you are not open to seeing and learning more, nor anew.
iambiguous wrote: Fri Aug 05, 2022 7:26 pm Then it did.
Just about all things evolve into existence, exist, and then exit.

But do not forget that appearances are not always as they appear as well.
iambiguous wrote: Fri Aug 05, 2022 7:26 pm Then over time it will not again. It might take billions of years before planet Earth is gone but it is predicted that the Sun on the way to its own demise will swallow the Earth whole. At best we can reduce everything down to atoms and to subatomic particulars that do their thing...forever?

But existence itself? In a No God universe? How can it either always have existed or come into existence out of nothing at all? Which rendition seems the most preposterous?
In a God or NO God Universe the Universe, Itself, is always existing, (just in a continual different shape or form).

The Universe coming from nothing is logically and physically IMPOSSIBLE.

The Universe always existing is not just logically and physically POSSIBLE, the Universe existing always is just what is actually irrefutably True, or otherwise known as the whole Truth.

The Universe always being in Existence is not just a possibility but what is actuality.
iambiguous wrote: Fri Aug 05, 2022 7:26 pm
There is an element here of a travelogue, and even a dining guide – the people who wonder about existence tend to drink a lot – but most of all it’s a tireless rumination on a single, unanswerable (sorry) question. Holt describes how philosophers, theologians and cosmologists have tried to shinny up this greased pole for thousands of years.
And we too are all along for the ride, aren't we? Is it an unanswerable question? Hell, we don't even know whether any answer we do come up with isn't the only answer we were ever able to come up with. Why? Because all the matter that encompasses "everything there is" [whether from nothing or always around] is inherently, necessarily subsumed in the immutable laws of matter itself.

Then back to those here who insist their pole is anything but greased. They've climbed all the way to the top. How? By constructing a "world of words" "in their head" allowing them to "think up" the solution.

Then when you ask them to demonstrate it, all they have available for you are yet more "arguments".
What else do you want besides an 'argument' or 'arguments'?

Also, are you aware that a 'sound and valid argument' is irrefutable, and therefore a Fact that cannot be disproved?

So, once a 'sound and valid argument' is provided, then what else would you want, or need?
iambiguous
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Re: Nothing to something must be possible

Post by iambiguous »

Age wrote: Sat Aug 06, 2022 12:36 am
iambiguous wrote: Fri Aug 05, 2022 7:26 pm Why there’s something rather than nothing
By Joel Achenbach at the Washington Post
Right now I’m halfway through Jim Holt’s terrific book “Why Does the World Exist?,” which is entirely about the something-nothing question. It’s a wild ride, and romping great fun. You get the impression that Holt thought about this issue until his skull began to crack.
Now this is a truly crucial observation. Aside from the objectivists among us who actually do believe that how they think about nothing, something and everything that there now is reflects the whole truth, the more sophisticated minds can't help but grasp just how mind-boggling existence qua existence itself is.
What is 'it', which you are boggled about here, exactly?

And, the oxymoron and self-contradictory claim that, 'the more sophisticated minds are the boggled ones', speaks for itself.

1. How the whole Truth is obtained is, essentially, very simple and very easy.

2. In relation to why there is something rather than nothing, it is extremely simple and easy to KNOW and to UNDERSTAND.

3. Because of what the Universe is fundamentally made up of, and because of how the Universe actually works, there can only be 'something'.

4. Existence exists, or there is Existence, because it could not be any other way.
iambiguous wrote: Fri Aug 05, 2022 7:26 pm How do you wrap your head around it? In other words, if you don't just take the shortcut to God.
Very easily and very simply.

1. If you were more specific than just saying 'it', then I could better explain to you how you exactly do so-call ' wrap your head around 'it' '.

2. God is just a word that refers to some 'thing'.
iambiguous wrote: Fri Aug 05, 2022 7:26 pm Everything that we note around us once did not exist.
This is not true, but while you actually do believe that how you think about nothing, something and everything here now reflects the whole truth, then you are not open to seeing and learning more, nor anew.
iambiguous wrote: Fri Aug 05, 2022 7:26 pm Then it did.
Just about all things evolve into existence, exist, and then exit.

But do not forget that appearances are not always as they appear as well.
iambiguous wrote: Fri Aug 05, 2022 7:26 pm Then over time it will not again. It might take billions of years before planet Earth is gone but it is predicted that the Sun on the way to its own demise will swallow the Earth whole. At best we can reduce everything down to atoms and to subatomic particulars that do their thing...forever?

But existence itself? In a No God universe? How can it either always have existed or come into existence out of nothing at all? Which rendition seems the most preposterous?
In a God or NO God Universe the Universe, Itself, is always existing, (just in a continual different shape or form).

The Universe coming from nothing is logically and physically IMPOSSIBLE.

The Universe always existing is not just logically and physically POSSIBLE, the Universe existing always is just what is actually irrefutably True, or otherwise known as the whole Truth.

The Universe always being in Existence is not just a possibility but what is actuality.
iambiguous wrote: Fri Aug 05, 2022 7:26 pm
There is an element here of a travelogue, and even a dining guide – the people who wonder about existence tend to drink a lot – but most of all it’s a tireless rumination on a single, unanswerable (sorry) question. Holt describes how philosophers, theologians and cosmologists have tried to shinny up this greased pole for thousands of years.
And we too are all along for the ride, aren't we? Is it an unanswerable question? Hell, we don't even know whether any answer we do come up with isn't the only answer we were ever able to come up with. Why? Because all the matter that encompasses "everything there is" [whether from nothing or always around] is inherently, necessarily subsumed in the immutable laws of matter itself.

Then back to those here who insist their pole is anything but greased. They've climbed all the way to the top. How? By constructing a "world of words" "in their head" allowing them to "think up" the solution.

Then when you ask them to demonstrate it, all they have available for you are yet more "arguments".
What else do you want besides an 'argument' or 'arguments'?

Also, are you aware that a 'sound and valid argument' is irrefutable, and therefore a Fact that cannot be disproved?

So, once a 'sound and valid argument' is provided, then what else would you want, or need?
Anyone else? 8)
Advocate
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Re: Nothing to something must be possible

Post by Advocate »

Nothing isn't possible so nothing to something also isn't possible.
Age
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Re: Nothing to something must be possible

Post by Age »

iambiguous wrote: Sat Aug 06, 2022 2:01 am
Age wrote: Sat Aug 06, 2022 12:36 am
iambiguous wrote: Fri Aug 05, 2022 7:26 pm Why there’s something rather than nothing
By Joel Achenbach at the Washington Post



Now this is a truly crucial observation. Aside from the objectivists among us who actually do believe that how they think about nothing, something and everything that there now is reflects the whole truth, the more sophisticated minds can't help but grasp just how mind-boggling existence qua existence itself is.
What is 'it', which you are boggled about here, exactly?

And, the oxymoron and self-contradictory claim that, 'the more sophisticated minds are the boggled ones', speaks for itself.

1. How the whole Truth is obtained is, essentially, very simple and very easy.

2. In relation to why there is something rather than nothing, it is extremely simple and easy to KNOW and to UNDERSTAND.

3. Because of what the Universe is fundamentally made up of, and because of how the Universe actually works, there can only be 'something'.

4. Existence exists, or there is Existence, because it could not be any other way.
iambiguous wrote: Fri Aug 05, 2022 7:26 pm How do you wrap your head around it? In other words, if you don't just take the shortcut to God.
Very easily and very simply.

1. If you were more specific than just saying 'it', then I could better explain to you how you exactly do so-call ' wrap your head around 'it' '.

2. God is just a word that refers to some 'thing'.
iambiguous wrote: Fri Aug 05, 2022 7:26 pm Everything that we note around us once did not exist.
This is not true, but while you actually do believe that how you think about nothing, something and everything here now reflects the whole truth, then you are not open to seeing and learning more, nor anew.
iambiguous wrote: Fri Aug 05, 2022 7:26 pm Then it did.
Just about all things evolve into existence, exist, and then exit.

But do not forget that appearances are not always as they appear as well.
iambiguous wrote: Fri Aug 05, 2022 7:26 pm Then over time it will not again. It might take billions of years before planet Earth is gone but it is predicted that the Sun on the way to its own demise will swallow the Earth whole. At best we can reduce everything down to atoms and to subatomic particulars that do their thing...forever?

But existence itself? In a No God universe? How can it either always have existed or come into existence out of nothing at all? Which rendition seems the most preposterous?
In a God or NO God Universe the Universe, Itself, is always existing, (just in a continual different shape or form).

The Universe coming from nothing is logically and physically IMPOSSIBLE.

The Universe always existing is not just logically and physically POSSIBLE, the Universe existing always is just what is actually irrefutably True, or otherwise known as the whole Truth.

The Universe always being in Existence is not just a possibility but what is actuality.
iambiguous wrote: Fri Aug 05, 2022 7:26 pm

And we too are all along for the ride, aren't we? Is it an unanswerable question? Hell, we don't even know whether any answer we do come up with isn't the only answer we were ever able to come up with. Why? Because all the matter that encompasses "everything there is" [whether from nothing or always around] is inherently, necessarily subsumed in the immutable laws of matter itself.

Then back to those here who insist their pole is anything but greased. They've climbed all the way to the top. How? By constructing a "world of words" "in their head" allowing them to "think up" the solution.

Then when you ask them to demonstrate it, all they have available for you are yet more "arguments".
What else do you want besides an 'argument' or 'arguments'?

Also, are you aware that a 'sound and valid argument' is irrefutable, and therefore a Fact that cannot be disproved?

So, once a 'sound and valid argument' is provided, then what else would you want, or need?
Anyone else? 8)
The reason there is nothing in what I said here that you could refute nor counter is because it is all irrefutable.

The Universe is therefore eternal, and infinite. As already proved True.

Your BELIEF of otherwise is WHY you cannot yet see this Fact.
Age
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Re: Nothing to something must be possible

Post by Age »

Advocate wrote: Sat Aug 06, 2022 2:16 am Nothing isn't possible so nothing to something also isn't possible.
Nothing is logically possible, and in fact does actually exist WITH something.

Nothing only, however, although also logically possible is not, actually, actually possible.

So, because nothing only is not an actual possiblity, as you so rightly pointed out nothing to something could not also be possible.

In fact, absolutely EVERY thing, besides matter and space, comes from at least two other prior, existing, things coming together.
iambiguous
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Re: Nothing to something must be possible

Post by iambiguous »

Age wrote: Sat Aug 06, 2022 2:26 am
iambiguous wrote: Sat Aug 06, 2022 2:01 am
Age wrote: Sat Aug 06, 2022 12:36 am

What is 'it', which you are boggled about here, exactly?

And, the oxymoron and self-contradictory claim that, 'the more sophisticated minds are the boggled ones', speaks for itself.

1. How the whole Truth is obtained is, essentially, very simple and very easy.

2. In relation to why there is something rather than nothing, it is extremely simple and easy to KNOW and to UNDERSTAND.

3. Because of what the Universe is fundamentally made up of, and because of how the Universe actually works, there can only be 'something'.

4. Existence exists, or there is Existence, because it could not be any other way.


Very easily and very simply.

1. If you were more specific than just saying 'it', then I could better explain to you how you exactly do so-call ' wrap your head around 'it' '.

2. God is just a word that refers to some 'thing'.


This is not true, but while you actually do believe that how you think about nothing, something and everything here now reflects the whole truth, then you are not open to seeing and learning more, nor anew.



Just about all things evolve into existence, exist, and then exit.

But do not forget that appearances are not always as they appear as well.



In a God or NO God Universe the Universe, Itself, is always existing, (just in a continual different shape or form).

The Universe coming from nothing is logically and physically IMPOSSIBLE.

The Universe always existing is not just logically and physically POSSIBLE, the Universe existing always is just what is actually irrefutably True, or otherwise known as the whole Truth.

The Universe always being in Existence is not just a possibility but what is actuality.


What else do you want besides an 'argument' or 'arguments'?

Also, are you aware that a 'sound and valid argument' is irrefutable, and therefore a Fact that cannot be disproved?

So, once a 'sound and valid argument' is provided, then what else would you want, or need?
Anyone else? 8)
The reason there is nothing in what I said here that you could refute nor counter is because it is all irrefutable.

The Universe is therefore eternal, and infinite. As already proved True.

Your BELIEF of otherwise is WHY you cannot yet see this Fact.
:lol:

No, seriously.
Age
Posts: 12083
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Re: Nothing to something must be possible

Post by Age »

iambiguous wrote: Sat Aug 06, 2022 5:05 am
Age wrote: Sat Aug 06, 2022 2:26 am
iambiguous wrote: Sat Aug 06, 2022 2:01 am

Anyone else? 8)
The reason there is nothing in what I said here that you could refute nor counter is because it is all irrefutable.

The Universe is therefore eternal, and infinite. As already proved True.

Your BELIEF of otherwise is WHY you cannot yet see this Fact.
:lol:

No, seriously.
You have already proclaimed that you are too 'boggled' to even be able to begin to understand existence, itself. You are also proving just how boggled you really are here. You could not even begin to answer any of the questions I posed to you.

See, the Universe is always in Existence.

This is a Fact, of which obviously the proof cannot be refuted.

You, however, BELIEVE you are 'boggled', and as such will remain so.
Age
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Re: Nothing to something must be possible

Post by Age »

Aside from the 'believers' among us who actually do believe that how they think about nothing, something and everything that there now is reflects the whole truth, the truly open mind is not 'boggled' at all, and is able to see those who are 'boggled' and BELIEVE so.

Because of the 'laws' of cause and effect, every action causes a reaction, which means the Universe, Itself, always is in Existence, Itself.

And this is just one of many proofs, which, obviously, no one could refute.

The Universe is eternal, and there is not one proof otherwise.
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