Free will

So what's really going on?

Moderators: AMod, iMod

User avatar
bahman
Posts: 8791
Joined: Fri Aug 05, 2016 3:52 pm

Free will

Post by bahman »

Free will by definition is the ability to unbiasedly choose between at least two options. To show that free will is real we discuss three different situations that which a free decision is needed. We consider a situation with only two options, A and B. We may like A more than B and choose A. This is a non-free decision that we call it conditional decision. We may like A and B equally and choose one of them. It is clear that we cannot be biased by one of the options so our decision is free in such a situation. There are situations that which the future outcome of A or B is not known. Again we cannot be biased by one of the options yet we can decide so such a decision is free too. We may like A more than B but we have the power to choose B for no specific reason. This is again a free decision since we were biased by A but we were able to choose B.
bobmax
Posts: 596
Joined: Fri Jun 03, 2022 7:38 am

Re: Free will

Post by bobmax »

I think choosing between multiple options is just a possible manifestation of free will, but not free will itself.

Because free will has to do with myself.

That is, I exist, as I, precisely because I am this same free will.
And I manifest myself to myself precisely through this will.
Which is free because it expresses myself.

I am this same freedom of will.

However, freedom is incompatible with nature.

There is nothing in nature that is free.
Because everything depends entirely on something else.
There is nothing that happens whose cause is truly attributable to a specific thing and nothing else. Not even the slightest component of this cause.

Why should I be different then?

Therefore this body of mine exists, this mind of mine exists, this will of mine exists... but do I really exist?
User avatar
bahman
Posts: 8791
Joined: Fri Aug 05, 2016 3:52 pm

Re: Free will

Post by bahman »

bobmax wrote: Thu Jul 07, 2022 7:39 am I think choosing between multiple options is just a possible manifestation of free will, but not free will itself.
I said that free will is the ability.
bobmax wrote: Thu Jul 07, 2022 7:39 am Because free will has to do with myself.

That is, I exist, as I, precisely because I am this same free will.
And I manifest myself to myself precisely through this will.
Which is free because it expresses myself.

I am this same freedom of will.
I don't think so. You have the ability to experience, think, cause, etc.
bobmax wrote: Thu Jul 07, 2022 7:39 am However, freedom is incompatible with nature.

There is nothing in nature that is free.
Because everything depends entirely on something else.
There is nothing that happens whose cause is truly attributable to a specific thing and nothing else. Not even the slightest component of this cause.
Free will is compatible with nature when there are options.
bobmax wrote: Thu Jul 07, 2022 7:39 am Why should I be different then?

Therefore this body of mine exists, this mind of mine exists, this will of mine exists... but do I really exist?
Yes, you are real.
bobmax
Posts: 596
Joined: Fri Jun 03, 2022 7:38 am

Re: Free will

Post by bobmax »

bahman wrote: Thu Jul 07, 2022 2:52 pm Free will is compatible with nature when there are options.
Give me an example, please.
User avatar
bahman
Posts: 8791
Joined: Fri Aug 05, 2016 3:52 pm

Re: Free will

Post by bahman »

bobmax wrote: Thu Jul 07, 2022 3:35 pm
bahman wrote: Thu Jul 07, 2022 2:52 pm Free will is compatible with nature when there are options.
Give me an example, please.
You have never had options in your life?
User avatar
Sculptor
Posts: 8536
Joined: Wed Jun 26, 2019 11:32 pm

Re: Free will

Post by Sculptor »

Whatever free will is, it is completely deterministic.
The only way the phrase makes sense is to describe a condition where an agent can act without being compelled from external forces, but act solely on their own determination.

When do an act of will, it is determined by prevailing conditions. For each of us choices are made base on our personal experience and motivation. It is wholly biased to our own way of thinking.
And thus an act of free will is 100% biased on our OWN needs, wants, and motivations.
bobmax
Posts: 596
Joined: Fri Jun 03, 2022 7:38 am

Re: Free will

Post by bobmax »

bahman wrote: Thu Jul 07, 2022 5:21 pm
bobmax wrote: Thu Jul 07, 2022 3:35 pm
bahman wrote: Thu Jul 07, 2022 2:52 pm Free will is compatible with nature when there are options.
Give me an example, please.
You have never had options in your life?
Feeling free to want doesn't mean you really are.

The ego manifests itself through this feeling.
But what seems true is not necessarily true.

The sun appears to revolve around the earth, but it is not.

There is nothing in nature that is free. But we delude ourselves instead of being free to want one thing rather than another.

It would be enough to consider that we are not able to want to want. But we only want...
User avatar
bahman
Posts: 8791
Joined: Fri Aug 05, 2016 3:52 pm

Re: Free will

Post by bahman »

Sculptor wrote: Thu Jul 07, 2022 6:48 pm Whatever free will is, it is completely deterministic.
No, a deterministic system goes from one state to another state. Decision matters when we are faced with at least two options or two states (options that need free decision as they are described in OP) so a deterministic system cannot evolve any further when it reaches such a situation.
Sculptor wrote: Thu Jul 07, 2022 6:48 pm The only way the phrase makes sense is to describe a condition where an agent can act without being compelled from external forces, but act solely on their own determination.
Yes, that is how I defined free will.
Sculptor wrote: Thu Jul 07, 2022 6:48 pm When do an act of will, it is determined by prevailing conditions. For each of us choices are made base on our personal experience and motivation. It is wholly biased to our own way of thinking.
And thus an act of free will is 100% biased on our OWN needs, wants, and motivations.
No. I have already given three situations that need, want, or motivation cannot help or do not matter.
User avatar
bahman
Posts: 8791
Joined: Fri Aug 05, 2016 3:52 pm

Re: Free will

Post by bahman »

bobmax wrote: Thu Jul 07, 2022 7:46 pm
bahman wrote: Thu Jul 07, 2022 5:21 pm
bobmax wrote: Thu Jul 07, 2022 3:35 pm

Give me an example, please.
You have never had options in your life?
Feeling free to want doesn't mean you really are.

The ego manifests itself through this feeling.
But what seems true is not necessarily true.

The sun appears to revolve around the earth, but it is not.

There is nothing in nature that is free. But we delude ourselves instead of being free to want one thing rather than another.

It would be enough to consider that we are not able to want to want. But we only want...
Have you ever had options in your life? Yes or no?
User avatar
Sculptor
Posts: 8536
Joined: Wed Jun 26, 2019 11:32 pm

Re: Free will

Post by Sculptor »

bahman wrote: Thu Jul 07, 2022 8:34 pm
Sculptor wrote: Thu Jul 07, 2022 6:48 pm Whatever free will is, it is completely deterministic.
No, a deterministic system goes from one state to another state. Decision matters when we are faced with at least two options or two states (options that need free decision as they are described in OP) so a deterministic system cannot evolve any further when it reaches such a situation.
IF an act of will is not deterministic, then how can you act at all?
What informs your choice of action.
You clearly have not thought this through at all.
Sculptor wrote: Thu Jul 07, 2022 6:48 pm The only way the phrase makes sense is to describe a condition where an agent can act without being compelled from external forces, but act solely on their own determination.
Yes, that is how I defined free will.
And yet you immediately piss on it by misunderstanding it.
Sculptor wrote: Thu Jul 07, 2022 6:48 pm When do an act of will, it is determined by prevailing conditions. For each of us choices are made base on our personal experience and motivation. It is wholly biased to our own way of thinking.
And thus an act of free will is 100% biased on our OWN needs, wants, and motivations.
No. I have already given three situations that need, want, or motivation cannot help or do not matter.
Then how do you make a choice?
User avatar
bahman
Posts: 8791
Joined: Fri Aug 05, 2016 3:52 pm

Re: Free will

Post by bahman »

Sculptor wrote: Thu Jul 07, 2022 8:48 pm
bahman wrote: Thu Jul 07, 2022 8:34 pm
Sculptor wrote: Thu Jul 07, 2022 6:48 pm Whatever free will is, it is completely deterministic.
No, a deterministic system goes from one state to another state. Decision matters when we are faced with at least two options or two states (options that need free decision as they are described in OP) so a deterministic system cannot evolve any further when it reaches such a situation.
IF an act of will is not deterministic, then how can you act at all?
I freely decide and then act.
Sculptor wrote: Thu Jul 07, 2022 8:48 pm What informs your choice of action.
My awareness of the situation.
Sculptor wrote: Thu Jul 07, 2022 8:48 pm You clearly have not thought this through at all.
I have thought of this thoroughly.
Sculptor wrote: Thu Jul 07, 2022 6:48 pm Then how do you make a choice?
That is the duty of mind. Any free agent has the ability to do so.
bobmax
Posts: 596
Joined: Fri Jun 03, 2022 7:38 am

Re: Free will

Post by bobmax »

bahman wrote: Thu Jul 07, 2022 8:35 pm Have you ever had options in your life? Yes or no?
I live most of the time convinced that I am choosing between several possibilities.
And this belief makes my "I" be.

But this belief is an illusion.

That free will is an illusion can be seen by looking at how the world works.
However, that free will does not exist is above all an ethical necessity.

This is not to say that then there is no responsibility for evil.
Indeed, the responsibility extends to all the evil in the world.

Because it is as if I were at the origin of all things, and this evil depended precisely on me.
User avatar
bahman
Posts: 8791
Joined: Fri Aug 05, 2016 3:52 pm

Re: Free will

Post by bahman »

bobmax wrote: Thu Jul 07, 2022 9:30 pm
bahman wrote: Thu Jul 07, 2022 8:35 pm Have you ever had options in your life? Yes or no?
I live most of the time convinced that I am choosing between several possibilities.
And this belief makes my "I" be.

But this belief is an illusion.

That free will is an illusion can be seen by looking at how the world works.
However, that free will does not exist is above all an ethical necessity.

This is not to say that then there is no responsibility for evil.
Indeed, the responsibility extends to all the evil in the world.

Because it is as if I were at the origin of all things, and this evil depended precisely on me.
Perhaps you need to read the OP again thoroughly and think about it.
Skepdick
Posts: 14366
Joined: Fri Jun 14, 2019 11:16 am

Re: Free will

Post by Skepdick »

bahman wrote: Wed Jul 06, 2022 9:06 pm Free will by definition is the ability to unbiasedly choose between at least two options.
This conception makes no sense to me. Bias is the same thing as choice.

To be unbiased is to be unable to choose any one of the available options.

Buridan's ass was unbiased.
User avatar
bahman
Posts: 8791
Joined: Fri Aug 05, 2016 3:52 pm

Re: Free will

Post by bahman »

Skepdick wrote: Thu Jul 07, 2022 9:47 pm
bahman wrote: Wed Jul 06, 2022 9:06 pm Free will by definition is the ability to unbiasedly choose between at least two options.
This conception makes no sense to me. Bias is the same thing as choice.
No, choices define a situation. You might be biased toward one though. You can choose it but that is what I call a non-free decision.
Skepdick wrote: Thu Jul 07, 2022 9:47 pm To be unbiased is to be unable to choose any one of the available options.
No, you can choose one.
Skepdick wrote: Thu Jul 07, 2022 9:47 pm Buridan's ass was unbiased.
The ass can choose one but not both. So it is up to him.
Post Reply