We are living in simulating reality

So what's really going on?

Moderators: AMod, iMod

Post Reply
Iwannaplato
Posts: 6591
Joined: Tue Aug 11, 2009 10:55 pm

Re: We are living in simulating reality

Post by Iwannaplato »

bahman wrote: Thu May 19, 2022 3:16 pm We know that we don't have direct access to the color of an object. There is light reflected from the object, then our sensory system comes to play, and then qualia are formed in the brain.
If it's a simulation or simulating we don't know if that model is correct. Further how do we know that objects don't really have colors. Through observations of reality. We seem to have some connection to reality.

We know certain things about reality such as the existence of the sensory system.
Which we got by studying bodies (or animals and other humans). IOW via observing reality. Or if its not reality, then we don't know.
Actually, there is a shortcut, we experience changes, and anything that changes is contingent (qualia), therefore there is a mind that experiences and creates qualia. The reality is then made of minds and qualia that mind is primary and qualia are due to mind. So we are dealing with idealism where nothing independent of mind exists. Qualia that we experience is either generated by us, such as thought or generated by others. Therefore we are living in simulating reality.
I still don't know how other minds generate qualia for us. Then they are directly contacting us, and we their qualia. If all there is beyond us to experience is qualia, then that's reality and we are in contact with it.
Others also experience changes.
If you are not in direct contact with reality and we are not you, then how can you be sure, especially if you are in a simulation, what our relationship with reality is. Your conclusions are based on your simulation (and your memory).
User avatar
bahman
Posts: 8791
Joined: Fri Aug 05, 2016 3:52 pm

Re: We are living in simulating reality

Post by bahman »

Walker wrote: Tue May 17, 2022 4:19 pm
bahman wrote: Mon May 16, 2022 7:49 pm
Walker wrote: Mon May 16, 2022 7:42 pm
Check out the red ... see more than red.
What is more than red? Any help?
The web is not reality.
The web is a sticky overlay, mistaken for reality.
How to escape the web, because we know why spiders weave webs.
Is this a problem?
I don't understand what you mean by this.
User avatar
bahman
Posts: 8791
Joined: Fri Aug 05, 2016 3:52 pm

Re: We are living in simulating reality

Post by bahman »

Iwannaplato wrote: Thu May 19, 2022 4:25 pm
bahman wrote: Thu May 19, 2022 3:16 pm We know that we don't have direct access to the color of an object. There is light reflected from the object, then our sensory system comes to play, and then qualia are formed in the brain.
If it's a simulation or simulating we don't know if that model is correct. Further how do we know that objects don't really have colors. Through observations of reality. We seem to have some connection to reality.
Let's go with shortcut.
Iwannaplato wrote: Thu May 19, 2022 4:25 pm
We know certain things about reality such as the existence of the sensory system.
Which we got by studying bodies (or animals and other humans). IOW via observing reality. Or if its not reality, then we don't know.
Let's go with the shortcut.
Iwannaplato wrote: Thu May 19, 2022 4:25 pm
Actually, there is a shortcut, we experience changes, and anything that changes is contingent (qualia), therefore there is a mind that experiences and creates qualia. The reality is then made of minds and qualia that mind is primary and qualia are due to mind. So we are dealing with idealism where nothing independent of mind exists. Qualia that we experience is either generated by us, such as thought or generated by others. Therefore we are living in simulating reality.
I still don't know how other minds generate qualia for us. Then they are directly contacting us, and we their qualia. If all there is beyond us to experience is qualia, then that's reality and we are in contact with it.
It is a matter of necessity. If the mind does not create qualia then there would be no motion and no thing. We are dealing with idealism.
Iwannaplato wrote: Thu May 19, 2022 4:25 pm

Others also experience changes.
If you are not in direct contact with reality and we are not you, then how can you be sure, especially if you are in a simulation, what our relationship with reality is. Your conclusions are based on your simulation (and your memory).
This simulation is not caused by me. Therefore there are others.
Walker
Posts: 14245
Joined: Thu Nov 05, 2015 12:00 am

Re: We are living in simulating reality

Post by Walker »

Dontaskme wrote: Thu May 19, 2022 9:16 am but but ...my but hole is holier than yours so there :mrgreen:
An obstetrician I once knew said he would often toss in an extra couple of stitches for the husband, no charge. He was a real humanitarian.
User avatar
Dontaskme
Posts: 16940
Joined: Sat Mar 12, 2016 2:07 pm
Location: Nowhere

Re: We are living in simulating reality

Post by Dontaskme »

Walker wrote: Thu May 19, 2022 5:22 pm
Dontaskme wrote: Thu May 19, 2022 9:16 am but but ...my but hole is holier than yours so there :mrgreen:
An obstetrician I once knew said he would often toss in an extra couple of stitches for the husband, no charge. He was a real humanitarian.
Jabberwocky off your mocky hockey wocky focky shocky cocky.
Iwannaplato
Posts: 6591
Joined: Tue Aug 11, 2009 10:55 pm

Re: We are living in simulating reality

Post by Iwannaplato »

bahman wrote: Thu May 19, 2022 4:48 pm
Let's go with shortcut.


Let's go with the shortcut.
I don't know what those responses mean.
Iwannaplato wrote: Thu May 19, 2022 4:25 pm
I still don't know how other minds generate qualia for us. Then they are directly contacting us, and we their qualia. If all there is beyond us to experience is qualia, then that's reality and we are in contact with it.
It is a matter of necessity. If the mind does not create qualia then there would be no motion and no thing. We are dealing with idealism.
How can other minds create qualia for me? If they are qualia, how do I know they are not just part of my mind? Why do you assume there are other minds? And that they are directly contacting us? If it is all mind, then we have direct contact with reality, because qualia are reality. It doesn't make sense to me to say everything is mind and qualia AND we are not in direct contact with reality. Qualia would be a large part of reality. Mind would be the rest. There would be no reality to be in transcendant contact with. But if qualia are reality, then we are in direct contact with them. I mean, notice how intimately inside us qualia are. In fact I cannot find a border between me and qualia.
Iwannaplato wrote: Thu May 19, 2022 4:25 pm If you are not in direct contact with reality and we are not you, then how can you be sure, especially if you are in a simulation, what our relationship with reality is. Your conclusions are based on your simulation (and your memory).
This simulation is not caused by me. Therefore there are others.
How do you know it is not caused by you.

If you are claiming we all are in a simulation or there is only simulation, then you are admitting that you are simulating what you experience. How could you possibly make claims about us? We are not your mind, unless you are a solipsist. We are part of reality external to you. You cannot possibly know what we experience or if we are in simulations or simulating reality.
User avatar
bahman
Posts: 8791
Joined: Fri Aug 05, 2016 3:52 pm

Re: We are living in simulating reality

Post by bahman »

Iwannaplato wrote: Thu May 19, 2022 8:13 pm
bahman wrote: Thu May 19, 2022 4:48 pm
Let's go with shortcut.


Let's go with the shortcut.
I don't know what those responses mean.
Iwannaplato wrote: Thu May 19, 2022 4:25 pm
I still don't know how other minds generate qualia for us. Then they are directly contacting us, and we their qualia. If all there is beyond us to experience is qualia, then that's reality and we are in contact with it.
It is a matter of necessity. If the mind does not create qualia then there would be no motion and no thing. We are dealing with idealism.
How can other minds create qualia for me? If they are qualia, how do I know they are not just part of my mind? Why do you assume there are other minds? And that they are directly contacting us? If it is all mind, then we have direct contact with reality, because qualia are reality. It doesn't make sense to me to say everything is mind and qualia AND we are not in direct contact with reality. Qualia would be a large part of reality. Mind would be the rest. There would be no reality to be in transcendant contact with. But if qualia are reality, then we are in direct contact with them. I mean, notice how intimately inside us qualia are. In fact I cannot find a border between me and qualia.
Iwannaplato wrote: Thu May 19, 2022 4:25 pm If you are not in direct contact with reality and we are not you, then how can you be sure, especially if you are in a simulation, what our relationship with reality is. Your conclusions are based on your simulation (and your memory).
This simulation is not caused by me. Therefore there are others.
How do you know it is not caused by you.

If you are claiming we all are in a simulation or there is only simulation, then you are admitting that you are simulating what you experience. How could you possibly make claims about us? We are not your mind, unless you are a solipsist. We are part of reality external to you. You cannot possibly know what we experience or if we are in simulations or simulating reality.
Could we agree that there is a change? If yes then consider a change in an object A to B where A and B are initial and final states of the object that are extremely close to each other. To be B the object must not be A. But there is nothing when there is no A and nothing cannot possibly cause B. Therefore there must be a mind that experiences A and causes B. Why mind should have the ability to experience A? Because otherwise, it cannot cause B that is correlated to A. It is obvious that mind should have the ability to cause B too since otherwise there would be no B or nothing after A vanishes. So we established that we have mind. A or B is however subject of experience that we call qualia. Your mind has the ability to cause qualia for example when you think or when you command to move your arm. What you experience however is not generated by your mind since you have no control over it. Therefore, you are living in a simulating reality, a reality that which what you experience is created by another/other mind/minds.
Iwannaplato
Posts: 6591
Joined: Tue Aug 11, 2009 10:55 pm

Re: We are living in simulating reality

Post by Iwannaplato »

bahman wrote: Thu May 19, 2022 8:30 pm Could we agree that there is a change? If yes then consider a change in an object A to B where A and B are initial and final states of the object that are extremely close to each other. To be B the object must not be A. But there is nothing when there is no A and nothing cannot possibly cause B. Therefore there must be a mind that experiences A and causes B. Why mind should have the ability to experience A? Because otherwise, it cannot cause B that is correlated to A. It is obvious that mind should have the ability to cause B too since otherwise there would be no B or nothing after A vanishes. So we established that we have mind. A or B is however subject of experience that we call qualia. Your mind has the ability to cause qualia for example when you think or when you command to move your arm. What you experience however is not generated by your mind since you have no control over it. Therefore, you are living in a simulating reality, a reality that which what you experience is created by another/other mind/minds.
Let's say your change argument works. It's not really responding to my points. IOW you just mounted a case for your kind of idealism. It's a bird's eye view. Talking about all minds. But you don't live out of an overview. You wake up, you experience...etc. In that space you are claiming that you live in a simulating reality without direct contact with anything your mind is not simulating. How could you possibly know what my mind does or experiences? You've already admitted to being isolated in your own mind.
User avatar
bahman
Posts: 8791
Joined: Fri Aug 05, 2016 3:52 pm

Re: We are living in simulating reality

Post by bahman »

Iwannaplato wrote: Thu May 19, 2022 8:42 pm
bahman wrote: Thu May 19, 2022 8:30 pm Could we agree that there is a change? If yes then consider a change in an object A to B where A and B are initial and final states of the object that are extremely close to each other. To be B the object must not be A. But there is nothing when there is no A and nothing cannot possibly cause B. Therefore there must be a mind that experiences A and causes B. Why mind should have the ability to experience A? Because otherwise, it cannot cause B that is correlated to A. It is obvious that mind should have the ability to cause B too since otherwise there would be no B or nothing after A vanishes. So we established that we have mind. A or B is however subject of experience that we call qualia. Your mind has the ability to cause qualia for example when you think or when you command to move your arm. What you experience however is not generated by your mind since you have no control over it. Therefore, you are living in a simulating reality, a reality that which what you experience is created by another/other mind/minds.
Let's say your change argument works. It's not really responding to my points. IOW you just mounted a case for your kind of idealism. It's a bird's eye view. Talking about all minds. But you don't live out of an overview. You wake up, you experience...etc. In that space you are claiming that you live in a simulating reality without direct contact with anything your mind is not simulating. How could you possibly know what my mind does or experiences? You've already admitted to being isolated in your own mind.
I already defined what mind does. It is a matter of necessity that mind experiences and causes qualia.
Iwannaplato
Posts: 6591
Joined: Tue Aug 11, 2009 10:55 pm

Re: We are living in simulating reality

Post by Iwannaplato »

bahman wrote: Thu May 19, 2022 8:57 pm I already defined what mind does. It is a matter of necessity that mind experiences and causes qualia.
You certain asserted it, yes. But you are assuming that your experience and ontology is universal, despite the obvious epistemological problems entailed by you being in a simulation. Yes, you think all minds all reality must be like you. But it's just an assumption.
User avatar
bahman
Posts: 8791
Joined: Fri Aug 05, 2016 3:52 pm

Re: We are living in simulating reality

Post by bahman »

Iwannaplato wrote: Thu May 19, 2022 9:12 pm
bahman wrote: Thu May 19, 2022 8:57 pm I already defined what mind does. It is a matter of necessity that mind experiences and causes qualia.
You certain asserted it, yes. But you are assuming that your experience and ontology is universal, despite the obvious epistemological problems entailed by you being in a simulation.
What is the problem?
Iwannaplato wrote: Thu May 19, 2022 9:12 pm Yes, you think all minds all reality must be like you. But it's just an assumption.
Yes, all mind must be like me if they cause motion.
Iwannaplato
Posts: 6591
Joined: Tue Aug 11, 2009 10:55 pm

Re: We are living in simulating reality

Post by Iwannaplato »

bahman wrote: Thu May 19, 2022 9:18 pm What is the problem?
What's the problem with not thinking everything is qualia and mind?
Iwannaplato wrote: Thu May 19, 2022 9:12 pm Yes, you think all minds all reality must be like you. But it's just an assumption.
Yes, all mind must be like me if they cause motion.
You're making claims about all of reality when you are only in touch with yourself, by our own admission. You don't know if the same ontology holds everywhere.
User avatar
bahman
Posts: 8791
Joined: Fri Aug 05, 2016 3:52 pm

Re: We are living in simulating reality

Post by bahman »

Iwannaplato wrote: Thu May 19, 2022 9:27 pm
bahman wrote: Thu May 19, 2022 9:18 pm What is the problem?
What's the problem with not thinking everything is qualia and mind?
Yes, everything is minds and qualia. Minds being primary and qualia are due to minds.
Iwannaplato wrote: Thu May 19, 2022 9:12 pm You're making claims about all of reality when you are only in touch with yourself, by our own admission. You don't know if the same ontology holds everywhere.
It is a matter of fact. If there is a motion that is not due to my mind then it is due to another mind. There are motions that they are not due to me so there is at least one mind more.
Veritas Aequitas
Posts: 12242
Joined: Wed Jul 11, 2012 4:41 am

Re: We are living in simulating reality

Post by Veritas Aequitas »

bahman wrote: Thu May 19, 2022 2:41 pm
Veritas Aequitas wrote: Thu May 19, 2022 6:34 am
bahman wrote: Wed May 18, 2022 8:49 pm
Of course, there is motion in absence of humans.


He was right in saying there is no motion when there is no mind but he was wrong in assuming that there are only human minds.


What we are talking about is beyond the domain of science.


Mind is not the outcome of brain functions.
Can you prove there are other minds other than human minds?

Note definition of what is mind.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mind
To me, mind is an irreducible substance with the ability to experience qualia and cause qualia.
You mean 'mind' is an irreducible substance beyond a living human?

A human mind is supported by real empirical neurons in working order plus the whole human self.
If a human is dead, there is no human mind.

Can you prove there are other minds other than human minds?
What are such 'minds' supported by?
What are the empirical evidences to verify and justify your claim that such an external non-human mind is real?
Iwannaplato
Posts: 6591
Joined: Tue Aug 11, 2009 10:55 pm

Re: We are living in simulating reality

Post by Iwannaplato »

bahman wrote: Thu May 19, 2022 9:51 pm Yes, everything is minds and qualia. Minds being primary and qualia are due to minds.
Yes, I knew you believed that.
I wrote:
What's the problem with not thinking everything is qualia and mind?
Iwannaplato wrote: Thu May 19, 2022 9:12 pm You're making claims about all of reality when you are only in touch with yourself, by our own admission. You don't know if the same ontology holds everywhere.
It is a matter of fact. If there is a motion that is not due to my mind then it is due to another mind. There are motions that they are not due to me so there is at least one mind more.
And again. I ask you how you can know things that are beyond your mind and you repeat your position. I know that is your position.
Post Reply