Time cannot be created/emergent

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bahman
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Time cannot be created/emergent

Post by bahman » Tue Jun 05, 2018 7:46 pm

Time is fundamental variable of any dynamical theory. This means that time cannot be an emergent property of a dynamical theory since otherwise it has to be emergent property and fundamental variable of the theory at the same time.

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QuantumT
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Re: Time cannot be created/emergent

Post by QuantumT » Tue Jun 05, 2018 8:31 pm

A universe is defined by matter, energy and movement. Time is the concept that breaks down changes in those to moments. Time starts when the first change occurs. Time can only exist in a universe with change.

If our universe is not unique, time is older than our universe.

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bahman
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Re: Time cannot be created/emergent

Post by bahman » Wed Jun 06, 2018 7:27 pm

QuantumT wrote:
Tue Jun 05, 2018 8:31 pm
A universe is defined by matter, energy and movement. Time is the concept that breaks down changes in those to moments. Time starts when the first change occurs. Time can only exist in a universe with change.

If our universe is not unique, time is older than our universe.
The main point in this argument is that time cannot be created or be emergent. I would be glad to elaborate if I know where you lack understanding.

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QuantumT
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Re: Time cannot be created/emergent

Post by QuantumT » Wed Jun 06, 2018 11:02 pm

bahman wrote:
Wed Jun 06, 2018 7:27 pm
The main point in this argument is that time cannot be created or be emergent. I would be glad to elaborate if I know where you lack understanding.
You see time as a human construct, right? It only exists in our minds.
Relativity disagrees.
Me? I'm open for suggestions, so please elaborate :wink:

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bahman
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Re: Time cannot be created/emergent

Post by bahman » Thu Jun 07, 2018 12:22 am

QuantumT wrote:
Wed Jun 06, 2018 11:02 pm
bahman wrote:
Wed Jun 06, 2018 7:27 pm
The main point in this argument is that time cannot be created or be emergent. I would be glad to elaborate if I know where you lack understanding.
You see time as a human construct, right? It only exists in our minds.
Time is real. I have an argument for that that I post it in this thread
QuantumT wrote:
Wed Jun 06, 2018 11:02 pm
Relativity disagrees.
It is matter of fact that you cannot have change/motion without time (as it is discussed in another thread). Any dynamical theory which attemts to describe reality needs time as its fundamental variable.
QuantumT wrote:
Wed Jun 06, 2018 11:02 pm
Me? I'm open for suggestions, so please elaborate :wink:
What I am arguing is that time cannot be created. Did you get the argument in OP? :wink:

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QuantumT
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Re: Time cannot be created/emergent

Post by QuantumT » Thu Jun 07, 2018 12:27 am

bahman wrote:
Thu Jun 07, 2018 12:22 am
What I am arguing is that time cannot be created. Did you get the argument in OP? :wink:
Well, you also said it can't emerge. But I consider TBB as an emerging thing, thus time did emerge. Or what? :wink:

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bahman
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Re: Time cannot be created/emergent

Post by bahman » Thu Jun 07, 2018 12:35 am

QuantumT wrote:
Thu Jun 07, 2018 12:27 am
bahman wrote:
Thu Jun 07, 2018 12:22 am
What I am arguing is that time cannot be created. Did you get the argument in OP? :wink:
Well, you also said it can't emerge. But I consider TBB as an emerging thing, thus time did emerge. Or what? :wink:
What is TBB? :mrgreen:

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QuantumT
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Re: Time cannot be created/emergent

Post by QuantumT » Thu Jun 07, 2018 12:51 am

bahman wrote:
Thu Jun 07, 2018 12:35 am
What is TBB? :mrgreen:
The Big Boom/Bang/Baloon. That thing that started all this shit! :mrgreen:

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bahman
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Re: Time cannot be created/emergent

Post by bahman » Thu Jun 07, 2018 12:54 am

QuantumT wrote:
Thu Jun 07, 2018 12:51 am
bahman wrote:
Thu Jun 07, 2018 12:35 am
What is TBB? :mrgreen:
The Big Boom/Bang/Baloon. That thing that started all this shit! :mrgreen:
You mean Big Bang? Well, if there is a dynamical theory which time is its fundamental variable then time cannot be emergent at the same time since you need time for motion.

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QuantumT
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Re: Time cannot be created/emergent

Post by QuantumT » Thu Jun 07, 2018 1:00 am

bahman wrote:
Thu Jun 07, 2018 12:54 am
You mean Big Bang? Well, if there is a dynamical theory which time is its fundamental variable then time cannot be emergent at the same time since you need time for motion.
So, you disagree that the big bang emerged? Elaborate please!

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bahman
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Re: Time cannot be created/emergent

Post by bahman » Thu Jun 07, 2018 1:05 am

QuantumT wrote:
Thu Jun 07, 2018 1:00 am
bahman wrote:
Thu Jun 07, 2018 12:54 am
You mean Big Bang? Well, if there is a dynamical theory which time is its fundamental variable then time cannot be emergent at the same time since you need time for motion.
So, you disagree that the big bang emerged? Elaborate please!
I am claiming that dynamical theory which explains the emergence of the big bang needs time as its fundamental variable otherwise you cannot have any change or any emergence. Time cannot be an emergent phenomena and fundamental variable in this dynamical theory.

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Re: Time cannot be created/emergent

Post by AlexW » Tue Jun 12, 2018 3:00 am

Time, space plus any theory that describes the behaviour of objects are always in a circular relationship.
One part depends on the other - as such none of them are ultimately real. None is prior or fundamental - each one arises only when all three come together making the mental construct seem real. All three are mind made and have no existence outside of it.

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bahman
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Re: Time cannot be created/emergent

Post by bahman » Tue Jun 12, 2018 12:49 pm

AlexW wrote:
Tue Jun 12, 2018 3:00 am
Time, space plus any theory that describes the behaviour of objects are always in a circular relationship. One part depends on the other - as such none of them are ultimately real. None is prior or fundamental - each one arises only when all three come together making the mental construct seem real.
I understand what you are saying but what you are saying does not resolve the problem that I am raising. You are saying that time exists at beginning and it is related to other things. I am saying that time cannot be emergent since it is needed for any dynamical theory which the theory has to eventually describe the beginning. So your argument cannot address my argument unless you claim that everything existed at beginning. That is true since for example in the case of creation you have two states of affair, God and God+creation, which they are separated by time. What I am arguing is that time in this case cannot be emergent since it is needed for the act of creation.
AlexW wrote:
Tue Jun 12, 2018 3:00 am
All three are mind made and have no existence outside of it.
I agree. Time, space and objects are part of Qualia and any theory which describes how objects are subject of motion describes the structure of Qualia.

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Re: Time cannot be created/emergent

Post by AlexW » Wed Jun 13, 2018 10:20 am

bahman wrote:
Tue Jun 12, 2018 12:49 pm
You are saying that time exists at beginning and it is related to other things
No, I am not saying that... I say there is no time (outside of memory/projection)
bahman wrote:
Tue Jun 12, 2018 12:49 pm
I am saying that time cannot be emergent since it is needed for any dynamical theory which the theory has to eventually describe the beginning.
Every theory emerges from... thought.
Every theory that requires time to be present for it to function relies on time emerging from... thought. It simply doesn't emerge from anywhere else.
bahman wrote:
Tue Jun 12, 2018 12:49 pm
So your argument cannot address my argument unless you claim that everything existed at beginning.
I claim that all exists NOW. (aka awareness/consciousness)
Awareness "exists" only now, not in the past or the future - now is NOT in time.
Only the past and future seem to be in time (due to our belief in thought).

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bahman
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Re: Time cannot be created/emergent

Post by bahman » Thu Jun 14, 2018 5:35 am

AlexW wrote:
Wed Jun 13, 2018 10:20 am
bahman wrote:
Tue Jun 12, 2018 12:49 pm
You are saying that time exists at beginning and it is related to other things
No, I am not saying that... I say there is no time (outside of memory/projection)
I agree that time is a mind dependent thing.
AlexW wrote:
Wed Jun 13, 2018 10:20 am
bahman wrote:
Tue Jun 12, 2018 12:49 pm
I am saying that time cannot be emergent since it is needed for any dynamical theory which the theory has to eventually describe the beginning.
Every theory emerges from... thought.
Every theory that requires time to be present for it to function relies on time emerging from... thought. It simply doesn't emerge from anywhere else.
That is the point that I am trying to make. Time cannot be emergent. This is already discussed in OP but I elaborate again. Time cannot be an emergent property of a dynamical theory since you need time to have a dynamical theory at first place.

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