Good Translation for Plato's Republic?

For the discussion of philosophical books.

Moderators: AMod, iMod

User avatar
i_another
Posts: 30
Joined: Sun Feb 23, 2014 3:04 pm
Location: United States

Re: Good Translation for Plato's Republic?

Post by i_another » Tue May 13, 2014 2:14 am

Hat-tip to Melchior for catching my mistake.

You're correct, sir. I quoted Jowett's rendition but mistakenly attributed it to Lee. I'll make the correction in my post.

User avatar
i_another
Posts: 30
Joined: Sun Feb 23, 2014 3:04 pm
Location: United States

Re: Good Translation for Plato's Republic?

Post by i_another » Tue May 13, 2014 2:30 am

Melchior wrote:Bloom's ideas of translation are entirely wrong, and "literal" translations are a farce. His translations of the Republic should be banned.
I didn't mean to suggest that English translations of ancient Greek are actually literal. As I said, my advice to any reader would be to lean toward literality if given the choice. By pursuing a literal translation Bloom intended to "emancipate" the reader "from the tyranny of the translator and thus permit the reader "to discover the subtleties of the elusive original." He admits in his introductory remarks to The Republic that he may have been unsuccessful in this attempt; but I don't know that we can expect anything more from ordinary men, eminent though they may be. Out of curiosity, what is it about Bloom's approach that you find intolerable?

Melchior
Posts: 859
Joined: Mon Apr 28, 2014 3:20 pm

Re: Good Translation for Plato's Republic?

Post by Melchior » Tue May 13, 2014 2:49 am

i_another wrote:
Melchior wrote:Bloom's ideas of translation are entirely wrong, and "literal" translations are a farce. His translations of the Republic should be banned.
I didn't mean to suggest that English translations of ancient Greek are actually literal. As I said, my advice to any reader would be to lean toward literality if given the choice. By pursuing a literal translation Bloom intended to "emancipate" the reader "from the tyranny of the translator and thus permit the reader "to discover the subtleties of the elusive original." He admits in his introductory remarks to The Republic that he may have been unsuccessful in this attempt; but I don't know that we can expect anything more from ordinary men, eminent though they may be. Out of curiosity, what is it about Bloom's approach that you find intolerable?
Why on earth would you advise any reader "to lean toward literality if given the choice"? What is the benefit? Let me tell you: there isn't any.

That statement of his that you quoted is sheer idiocy. I have written a paper on this very claim that I would be glad to share with you. Send me a message and include your e-mail and I will send it to you. Bloom is indirectly responsible for numerous horrible translations by people who accept the nonsense that he spouts. Bloom is what amounts to a cultural terrorist.

User avatar
i_another
Posts: 30
Joined: Sun Feb 23, 2014 3:04 pm
Location: United States

Re: Good Translation for Plato's Republic?

Post by i_another » Tue May 13, 2014 12:36 pm

I'd be happy to help gladden you, Melchior. Send away.

(This paper didn't happen to appear in the 1977 volume of Political Theory, did it?)

Melchior
Posts: 859
Joined: Mon Apr 28, 2014 3:20 pm

Re: Good Translation for Plato's Republic?

Post by Melchior » Tue May 13, 2014 2:28 pm

i_another wrote:I'd be happy to help gladden you, Melchior. Send away.

(This paper didn't happen to appear in the 1977 volume of Political Theory, did it?)
Nope, not me!

Melchior
Posts: 859
Joined: Mon Apr 28, 2014 3:20 pm

Re: Good Translation for Plato's Republic?

Post by Melchior » Sun May 18, 2014 2:21 am

The Griffith translation may be worth exploring.

HE-Comm
Posts: 1
Joined: Wed Aug 13, 2014 12:57 am

Re: Good Translation for Plato's Republic?

Post by HE-Comm » Wed Aug 13, 2014 1:01 am

Bloom's translation is ridicules see example below..

TRANSLATED BY ALLAN BLOOM:
"And in many other places, don't we," I said, "notice that, when desires force someone contrary to calculation, he reproaches himself and his spirit is roused against that in him which is doing the forcing; and, just as though there were two parties at faction, such a man's spirit becomes the ally of speech? But as for its making common cause with the desires to do what speech has declared must not be done, I suppose you'd say you had never noticed anything of the kind happening in yourself, nor, I suppose, in anyone else.

Translated by Benjamin Jowett:

And are there not many other cases in which we observe that when a man's desires violently prevail over his reason, he reviles himself, and is angry at the violence within him, and that in this struggle, which is like the struggle of factions in a State, his spirit is on the side of his reason;—but for the passionate or spirited element to take part with the desires when reason decides that she should not be opposed, is a sort of thing which I believe that you never observed occurring in yourself, nor, as I should imagine, in any one else?

Melchior
Posts: 859
Joined: Mon Apr 28, 2014 3:20 pm

Re: Good Translation for Plato's Republic?

Post by Melchior » Wed Aug 13, 2014 3:05 pm

HE-Comm wrote:Bloom's translation is ridicules see example below..

TRANSLATED BY ALLAN BLOOM:
"And in many other places, don't we," I said, "notice that, when desires force someone contrary to calculation, he reproaches himself and his spirit is roused against that in him which is doing the forcing; and, just as though there were two parties at faction, such a man's spirit becomes the ally of speech? But as for its making common cause with the desires to do what speech has declared must not be done, I suppose you'd say you had never noticed anything of the kind happening in yourself, nor, I suppose, in anyone else.

Translated by Benjamin Jowett:

And are there not many other cases in which we observe that when a man's desires violently prevail over his reason, he reviles himself, and is angry at the violence within him, and that in this struggle, which is like the struggle of factions in a State, his spirit is on the side of his reason;—but for the passionate or spirited element to take part with the desires when reason decides that she should not be opposed, is a sort of thing which I believe that you never observed occurring in yourself, nor, as I should imagine, in any one else?

Bloom is a moron!!!!!!! How can anyone read that crap? It's not even English!!!!!

stutterin' steve
Posts: 7
Joined: Wed Apr 15, 2015 9:08 pm

Re: Good Translation for Plato's Republic?

Post by stutterin' steve » Wed Apr 15, 2015 9:12 pm

Melchior! I knew I recognized that spleen-venting vitriol, and your later comments confirmed it. You're the guy who used to argue with all the good Amazon reviews of West's Four Texts.

Bloom is a fine translation, folks. If you don't like Bloom, try Sachs. Jowett is beautiful, I grant, but it is not reliable enough for the Greekless reader to use in study. It's as simple as that.

Melchior
Posts: 859
Joined: Mon Apr 28, 2014 3:20 pm

Re: Good Translation for Plato's Republic?

Post by Melchior » Thu Apr 16, 2015 4:07 pm

stutterin' steve wrote:Melchior! I knew I recognized that spleen-venting vitriol, and your later comments confirmed it. You're the guy who used to argue with all the good Amazon reviews of West's Four Texts.

Bloom is a fine translation, folks. If you don't like Bloom, try Sachs. Jowett is beautiful, I grant, but it is not reliable enough for the Greekless reader to use in study. It's as simple as that.
"A fine translation"? Bullshit! You haven't the slightest idea what you are talking about! You are totally clueless about what a translation can and cannot do. I'm sick and tired of moronic academics like you, who don't have the faintest knowledge of translation, spouting your ignorance. Bloom is a cultural terrorist! His translation is not even readable! West should be prosecuted for fraud! How he holds an academic position is beyond comprehension, and in saying that I'm being kind! I will be glad to send you my paper on the subject to show you how formal equivalence is hopelessly inadequate as a translation method

User avatar
WanderingLands
Posts: 819
Joined: Wed Jan 08, 2014 3:39 am
Contact:

Re: Good Translation for Plato's Republic?

Post by WanderingLands » Thu Apr 16, 2015 10:00 pm

Melchior wrote:
stutterin' steve wrote:Melchior! I knew I recognized that spleen-venting vitriol, and your later comments confirmed it. You're the guy who used to argue with all the good Amazon reviews of West's Four Texts.

Bloom is a fine translation, folks. If you don't like Bloom, try Sachs. Jowett is beautiful, I grant, but it is not reliable enough for the Greekless reader to use in study. It's as simple as that.
"A fine translation"? Bullshit! You haven't the slightest idea what you are talking about! You are totally clueless about what a translation can and cannot do. I'm sick and tired of moronic academics like you, who don't have the faintest knowledge of translation, spouting your ignorance. Bloom is a cultural terrorist! His translation is not even readable! West should be prosecuted for fraud! How he holds an academic position is beyond comprehension, and in saying that I'm being kind! I will be glad to send you my paper on the subject to show you how formal equivalence is hopelessly inadequate as a translation method
Can I get a copy, too? I'm interested in what you have to say regarding translations.

Melchior
Posts: 859
Joined: Mon Apr 28, 2014 3:20 pm

Re: Good Translation for Plato's Republic?

Post by Melchior » Thu Apr 16, 2015 10:38 pm

WanderingLands wrote:
Melchior wrote:
stutterin' steve wrote:Melchior! I knew I recognized that spleen-venting vitriol, and your later comments confirmed it. You're the guy who used to argue with all the good Amazon reviews of West's Four Texts.

Bloom is a fine translation, folks. If you don't like Bloom, try Sachs. Jowett is beautiful, I grant, but it is not reliable enough for the Greekless reader to use in study. It's as simple as that.
"A fine translation"? Bullshit! You haven't the slightest idea what you are talking about! You are totally clueless about what a translation can and cannot do. I'm sick and tired of moronic academics like you, who don't have the faintest knowledge of translation, spouting your ignorance. Bloom is a cultural terrorist! His translation is not even readable! West should be prosecuted for fraud! How he holds an academic position is beyond comprehension, and in saying that I'm being kind! I will be glad to send you my paper on the subject to show you how formal equivalence is hopelessly inadequate as a translation method
Can I get a copy, too? I'm interested in what you have to say regarding translations.
E-mail address?

User avatar
WanderingLands
Posts: 819
Joined: Wed Jan 08, 2014 3:39 am
Contact:

Re: Good Translation for Plato's Republic?

Post by WanderingLands » Thu Apr 16, 2015 11:07 pm

Melchior wrote:

E-mail address?
I'll PM you right now.

Melchior
Posts: 859
Joined: Mon Apr 28, 2014 3:20 pm

Re: Good Translation for Plato's Republic?

Post by Melchior » Fri Apr 17, 2015 1:02 am

WanderingLands wrote:
Melchior wrote:

E-mail address?
I'll PM you right now.

Sent.

User avatar
WanderingLands
Posts: 819
Joined: Wed Jan 08, 2014 3:39 am
Contact:

Re: Good Translation for Plato's Republic?

Post by WanderingLands » Fri Apr 17, 2015 1:04 am

Thanks - I got it, and now I'll read it.

Post Reply

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest