The Catcher in the Rye

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duszek
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The Catcher in the Rye

Post by duszek » Mon Jan 28, 2019 6:54 pm

1. If Holden is so good in English (as Salinger probably was himself) why does he speak using bad grammar ? Even non-native speakers are able to notice.
Or is this the level of English of a 16 year old person attending a prep school ?

2. Everything makes Holden puke. Especially everything and everyone phony around him.

Would it help if someone discussed the advantages of manners and politenss with him ?
After all, speaking one´s mind bluntly is not what we could endure in the long run.

Frank N Stein
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Re: The Catcher in the Rye

Post by Frank N Stein » Mon Jan 28, 2019 11:03 pm

Because spoken and written English are two different things. Formal spoken, formal written, informal written, informal spoken, colloquial, slang etc. etc. That doesn't alter the rules.

Impenitent
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Re: The Catcher in the Rye

Post by Impenitent » Mon Jan 28, 2019 11:12 pm

novels in textspeak will be double plus good

-Imp

duszek
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Re: The Catcher in the Rye

Post by duszek » Wed Jan 30, 2019 7:06 pm

Frank N Stein wrote:
Mon Jan 28, 2019 11:03 pm
Because spoken and written English are two different things. Formal spoken, formal written, informal written, informal spoken, colloquial, slang etc. etc. That doesn't alter the rules.
There is nothing wrong with slang, it is a legitimate part of a language.
But there are rules about forming a negative sentence. Perhaps Holden is even horsing around when he speaks, trying out structures that are not considered correct and checking if they can still convey the intended meaning. So he expands the English language that way.

Let me be less judgemental.

The border line is passed if the rules are misregarded so much that the communication does not work any more.

duszek
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Re: The Catcher in the Rye

Post by duszek » Wed Jan 30, 2019 7:10 pm

Impenitent wrote:
Mon Jan 28, 2019 11:12 pm
novels in textspeak will be double plus good

-Imp


Texts reflecting everyday imperfect speach are particulary appreciated by you ?

Speakers formulating their thoughts with awareness are double worth listening to.

duszek
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Re: The Catcher in the Rye

Post by duszek » Thu Jan 31, 2019 5:51 pm

"Stradlater wasn´t hardly listening."

instead of

Stradlater was hardly listening.

This is the kind of bad grammar that irritated me all the time.
It is a serious violation of grammar rules.

But apart from this the grammar seems to be o.k., just the sentence structure is clumsy more often than not.

But the book is really good, I have to admit.
It must have changed the lives of quite a lot of young people in the US and beyond.

"The Bell Jar" expresses a similar existential crisis.

Long ago I read the book "The disgust" (La nausée) by Jean-Paul Sartre. It impressed me a lot, but I don´t remember the details. The perspective was one of an intellectual adult, but the topic of disgust was also there.

Has Catcher influenced your process of growing up ?
Please, tell me, if it´s not too personal.

Frank N Stein
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Re: The Catcher in the Rye

Post by Frank N Stein » Thu Jan 31, 2019 7:10 pm

duszek wrote:
Thu Jan 31, 2019 5:51 pm
"Stradlater wasn´t hardly listening."

instead of

Stradlater was hardly listening.

This is the kind of bad grammar that irritated me all the time.
It is a serious violation of grammar rules.

But apart from this the grammar seems to be o.k., just the sentence structure is clumsy more often than not.

But the book is really good, I have to admit.
It must have changed the lives of quite a lot of young people in the US and beyond.

"The Bell Jar" expresses a similar existential crisis.

Long ago I read the book "The disgust" (La nausée) by Jean-Paul Sartre. It impressed me a lot, but I don´t remember the details. The perspective was one of an intellectual adult, but the topic of disgust was also there.

Has Catcher influenced your process of growing up ?
Please, tell me, if it´s not too personal.
Those words are written in the way that he speaks. You would hate Dickens then. Have you ever heard a real cockney?

gaffo
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Re: The Catcher in the Rye

Post by gaffo » Fri Feb 01, 2019 5:06 am

duszek wrote:
Mon Jan 28, 2019 6:54 pm
1. If Holden is so good in English (as Salinger probably was himself) why does he speak using bad grammar ? Even non-native speakers are able to notice.
Or is this the level of English of a 16 year old person attending a prep school ?

2. Everything makes Holden puke. Especially everything and everyone phony around him.

Would it help if someone discussed the advantages of manners and politenss with him ?
After all, speaking one´s mind bluntly is not what we could endure in the long run.
i read that work in the early 90's - ten yr after orwell's 1984. I've forgotten most of it (did not think a classic (unlike 1984 IMO) - so forgetable

not double plus good, maybe ok or so.

I think we can assume Salinger knew english and intentionally used poor grammar for the Holden character as a part of his character development in the book.

2-cents.

thanks for the 1984 reference by latter poster - loved that work, then and now.

Age
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Re: The Catcher in the Rye

Post by Age » Fri Feb 01, 2019 6:28 am

duszek wrote:
Wed Jan 30, 2019 7:10 pm
Impenitent wrote:
Mon Jan 28, 2019 11:12 pm
novels in textspeak will be double plus good

-Imp


Texts reflecting everyday imperfect speach are particulary appreciated by you ?
Was this, (a reflection of an imperfect text), intentional?

Frank N Stein
Posts: 143
Joined: Tue Jan 01, 2019 3:03 am

Re: The Catcher in the Rye

Post by Frank N Stein » Fri Feb 01, 2019 10:33 pm

The novel is written in the first person--hence the colloquial speech.
Is Catcher in the Rye the one with references to 'cornholing'?

duszek
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Re: The Catcher in the Rye

Post by duszek » Mon Feb 04, 2019 7:45 pm

Cornholing ?

Holden remembers wrongly a line by Robert Burns which is:

"When a body meet a body in the rye ... "

Holden remembers it as: When a body catch a body in the rye ...

He imagines himself hiding in a field of rye while children are playing in it. The field ends close to a clip and so when a child approaches the ravine or clip he catches the child and saves it from death.

He is like a bay-watcher, only in a field of rye instead of on the beach.

duszek
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Re: The Catcher in the Rye

Post by duszek » Mon Feb 04, 2019 7:46 pm

It must be possible to enjoy being a phoney.
Otherwise not so many people would do it all the time.

duszek
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Re: The Catcher in the Rye

Post by duszek » Mon Feb 04, 2019 7:50 pm

Age wrote:
Fri Feb 01, 2019 6:28 am
duszek wrote:
Wed Jan 30, 2019 7:10 pm
Impenitent wrote:
Mon Jan 28, 2019 11:12 pm
novels in textspeak will be double plus good

-Imp


Texts reflecting everyday imperfect speach are particulary appreciated by you ?
Was this, (a reflection of an imperfect text), intentional?
I am not always sure if I understand Mr. Impenitent correctly.
So I sometimes offer a paraphrase and ask if he agrees.

He is not obliged to answer me if he does not feel like it.

duszek
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Joined: Wed Jun 03, 2009 5:27 pm
Location: Thin Air

Re: The Catcher in the Rye

Post by duszek » Mon Feb 04, 2019 7:52 pm

Anglo-Saxons have a tradition of drama and theatre plays so being a phoney is a kind of game to them. Being natural is simply a pose (said Oscar Wilde). Speaking one´s mind is bad manners.

duszek
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Re: The Catcher in the Rye

Post by duszek » Mon Feb 18, 2019 7:03 pm

Being a phoney is a way of life to some of us.

If you don´t suffer phoneys gladly you are doomed.

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