What causes porn addiction???

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Morpheus
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Re: What causes porn addiction???

Post by Morpheus » Tue May 26, 2009 9:59 am

AS: What does it matter what kind of sex if it is in a secluded place outdoors away from voyeuristic eyes?

Eh? Yet again you've misread what I wrote. The outdoor sex in private was an aside. It's not sex outdoors per se but Richard's proposal of sex in full public view. In other words, I was asking Richard whether he would approve of violent, misogynistic, homophobic or racist sex being performed in public - i.e. harcore porn. I would suggest that it would be highly unlikely to occur even if sex in public were legalised. This is because people are less keen to act out hardcore for free, unless drunk or drugged (or maybe not drunk as they'd be incapable!) The fact is, the people who make a fortune out of porn are those at the top, those who make the material and distribute it. So, even if sex in public were the norm, it's likely that hardcore porn-making would continue as it would still be offering something different from that seen on the street. In any case, it's only a hypothetical argument, for who really knows?

Anyone can do whatever they wish in private, although if the behaviour is also harmful (e.g. risking disease, physical injury) then I'd question why they should wish to do it. The problem is that you have normalised degradation and abuse. I am seeing this from a totally different perspective from yourself.

AS: This is how I feel about sex in general. I feel it is just as natural.

I think sex is natural too.

AS:I was so turned off by that website I may never be able to have sex again! I liked Richard's site much better! (btw...thank you Richard! lol) That being said, I am sure there are people who could get addicted to the feminists site as well. I don't think the addiction has anything to do with the style of porn...as addictions can manifest themselves in a variety of subjects...food, cigarettes, repetitive actions, work...I think addiction is a modern day dilemma brought on by having too much free time on our hands. I don't know the solution. I just know I like hardcore porn(since you defined it as having violent overtones and ejaculation...and I suppose other stuff), I'm just not addicted to it. However, I will say that sex with all the innocence and wonderment (yes...I am still talking about hardcore sex...believe it or not!) is never degrading if you are with a lover who has your best interest in mind. I like to laugh and play...and I don't feel anything I experiment with is degrading. Sex is fantasy...it is exciting and can even be silly at times. Sex for me is as innocent and enjoyable as going to Disneyland. How more ethical can you get?

I'm not promoting any type of porn, rather I'm wondering if the feminist version is exactly as claimed by its proponents - i.e. non-abusive to women and non-violent, as opposed to the mainstream variety made primarily for males. As I said, personally I'm not into porn. However, if people feel they can't live without it, then I'm suggesting a humane compromise. You can do whatever you wish with your husband in private. But when you also use pornography, you are including others. Thus, ignoring (or not caring?) about the inhumanities inherent to the porn industry. You are focused only on your own enjoyment.

AS: First of all, young minds should not be viewing any type of porn...porn is an adult thing...just like drinking and staying out past curfew. Second, it's obvious that when they get a little older, they need an education that most women do not like this type of treatment for real...just like most car chases and murders in the movies are not real.

Exactly, so we need to make porn less easy for youngsters to access over the Internet, which is likely to be the main source for minors. The thing with car chases and murders in mainstream movies, these things are not real. The sex in hardcore porn is very real. People are actually performing sex. When such material is combined with violence and degradation, this is extremely harmful to certain young minds. It may well require professional intervention to help heal thus damaged minds. I'm thinking of the increase in sex crimes amongst children themselves - 11 and 12 year olds committing rape and torture. In all known cases, such kids were repeatedly exposed to hardcore porn, and thus had 'normalised' the behaviour. In fact, any extremely violent and sadistic material is capable of causing long-term harm to a young mind, even when the material is without a sexual element.

AS I just keep thinking about how you are most certainly correct that many in the porn industry have been abused. But how far do we take regulation?

Here we go again, your false argument.

Not once have I said we must regulate or ban anything Show me where I've said this? I'm sure I write clearly enough, since few others have difficulty reading me. I said earlier that we will not agree on this issue, so why do you keep covering over old ground and repeating straw man arguments? I've only ever talked about voluntary measures. The more we educate ourselves about the porn industry and its many abuses, non-addicted people will stop buying into it. In this way, the demand for porn is reduced. However, I do think there should be some control over Internet porn, making it only available to those willing to pay for it. Then fewer minors would be able to access it.

AS What I am asking is why is hardcore sex itself degrading or abusive? Could it just be our perception?

Certainly you have normalised something that I find disturbing due to its abusiveness, yes.

AS Or is it because there are diseases as you say?

It's not a case of this or that, the issues are multi-factorial as I've attempted to explain. Regarding disease, however, no one in their right mind would have unprotected sex with numerous partners. And I mean, not in their right mind. They must have no self-esteem due to their unhappy life experiences.

AS Even if so...diseases are more prevalent among people who are promiscuous whether or not they are in the porn industry. I have had (in the past) what you would consider 'degrading' sex...and I have never had a disease.

Then you are very lucky! Presumably you got yourself checked out for STDs afterwards.

AS I think it is a little harder to get a disease if a man ejaculates or spits on your skin than if he ejaculates or spits inside of you. Not to mention...I don't understand how it is possible to like having sex with a penis and not find everything about it attractive...the look, the taste, the cool tricks it can do! (look ma...no hands!) :wink:

Eh? Again, you are projecting a different meaning into my words. I find this extraordinary! What baffles me is that you appear to view this issue almost superficially. There are no deeper shades of perception. I'm not being insulting, I'm attempting to understand why you are unable to see where I'm coming from. From my perspective, there is a disconnection somewhere. However, I'm not blaming you for this. We see and feel things differently, so there is little point going round in circles. You are trying to rationalise or de-sensitise something that for others is perceived as deeply disturbing. Clearly you are unable to feel such disturbance when viewing violent and degrading porn. Therefore, it's impossible for you to understand at gut level a viewpoint such as mine.

AS Maybe I don't understand your whole argument...I am sorry for that...I am trying very hard to understand....I just don't see what is unnatural about sex.

As said, clearly you don't understand! I see nothing unnatural about sex. Why do you imagine this? There's nothing unnatural about violence, racism, misogyny, homophobia and all other forms of degradation either - for this is what humans are capable of. However, some of us find such behaviours distasteful and inhumane - whether combined with sex or without it. No doubt you will misinterpret this comment too!

Richard Baron
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Re: What causes porn addiction???

Post by Richard Baron » Tue May 26, 2009 12:02 pm

Morpheus wrote:However, I do think there should be some control over Internet porn, making it only available to those willing to pay for it. Then fewer minors would be able to access it.
My initial reaction would be to disagree, on grounds of personal freedom. If something is permitted at all, you should be allowed to give it away. And a minimum price would only help the professional porn factories. Having said that, you might make a case for imposing an excise duty to compensate for harm done, in the same way as duties are imposed on alcohol and tobacco (although those duties are not in fact geared to the harm done, but to the state's appetite for money).

But the Internet genie is out of the bottle. I do not think that you could impose any such control without creating the kind of Great Firewall that China and Saudi Arabia have created and that Australia is trying to create. Now that really would be a great evil.

Morpheus
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Re: What causes porn addiction???

Post by Morpheus » Tue May 26, 2009 12:14 pm

A brief comment which will invite accusations of prudery no doubt! Personally I don't understand why people need sex toys. I'm not judging them for using such gadgets, just baffled as to why they are meant to be a turn-on. Vibrators, for example, if used frequently surely would deaden the nerve endings, making non-gadget sex less intense. Also, I don't understand why body mutilation is supposed to be sexually alluring - I mean plastic breasts and all manner of other body and facial disfigurments in the name of 'cosmetic surgery'? No wonder young women have so many hang-ups nowadays. They become disastisfied with their own natural beauty and feel they must compete with the porn stars, thus turning themselves into Barbie Dolls. There's something amiss here. Something very amiss. This is sex, Scotty, but not sex as we (the Royal 'we') know it!

Richard: Yes the Genie is out of the bottle. For this reason, AS and others need not worry. They already have the society they approve of.

Richard Baron
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Re: What causes porn addiction???

Post by Richard Baron » Tue May 26, 2009 12:39 pm

Morpheus wrote:A brief comment which will invite accusations of prudery no doubt! Personally I don't understand why people need sex toys. ... Also, I don't understand why body mutilation is supposed to be sexually alluring - I mean plastic breasts and all manner of other body and facial disfigurments in the name of 'cosmetic surgery'?
I would not level any such accusation. I also cannot understand the attraction - especially not of surgery or even piercings. But each to their own.

Morpheus
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Re: What causes porn addiction???

Post by Morpheus » Tue May 26, 2009 12:52 pm

I had my ears pierced when I was a teenager as I've always had a passion for antique earrings. I kept losing clip-ons as they fall out more easily. I know that ear piercing could be regarded as mutilation, but it only cost a few bob at the time and has saved me a fortune in the long-term! But I digress...

artisticsolution
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Re: What causes porn addiction???

Post by artisticsolution » Tue May 26, 2009 2:18 pm

Hi Morpheus,

M: The thing with car chases and murders in mainstream movies, these things are not real. The sex in hardcore porn is very real. People are actually performing sex.

AS:Yes, and people in movies are actually driving cars. What is not real is the reasons why they are doing it. In porn...after the scene is done...the director goes "cut!" and the porn stars collect their money and go home to have whatever type of lives they wish to lead. It is not real sex...it is fantasy. Even if it was male only fantasy...what is wrong with males having their own fantasies? I am pretty sure they have discovered that most women don't share them. How lucky for them to find a woman who does! They should be grateful. However, most of them aren't...because they have been taught that women who like this type of sex are to be used and abused. This makes it impossible for them to see women as equals. If we tell them that the women who enjoy sexual fantasies are 'damaged' and the ones who like straight vanilla sex are the ones who are 'good' then we have made it impossible for them to view women as anything other than objects...either 'good' or 'bad' objects. There are normal women out there...who are strong...who are confident...who like hardcore sex sometimes. That does not mean they like to degrade themselves or others! It simply means they like to fantasize. Also, how do you say in one breathe that men's version of porn is any less ethical than the feminist version of porn? Seems a little sexist.

M:When such material is combined with violence and degradation, this is extremely harmful to certain young minds. It may well require professional intervention to help heal thus damaged minds. I'm thinking of the increase in sex crimes amongst children themselves - 11 and 12 year olds committing rape and torture. In all known cases, such kids were repeatedly exposed to hardcore porn, and thus had 'normalised' the behaviour. In fact, any extremely violent and sadistic material is capable of causing long-term harm to a young mind, even when the material is without a sexual element.

AS: I think this is due to fact that parents have taught the kids that this this type of sex is degrading and so women who enjoy this type of sex are to be used for this purpose. Do you see the dilemma? These kids are naturally attracted to sex. I don't think there is a man(or woman) alive who would not be attracted to hardcore porn if they viewed it. It is a natural response to visual stimuli. So then, if it is natural for men to become excited from these images then it is also natural for women as well. The damaging part comes from being attracted to these images and then having a conflicting message being told to you. You are bad. She is bad. Therefore you must only use her for your base instincts if you must and then go find a 'good' girl to marry. It makes all women become objects whether or not that are 'good' or 'bad.' Don't you see this? It is an impossible scenerio you have set up. Most people like to act out guttural base instincts. Down and dirty caveman dominant sex. However, we do not LIVE like that anymore. It's not real...it's just fantasy! If people could only see the difference... The harm comes from the lie that hardcore sex is degrading.

AS I just keep thinking about how you are most certainly correct that many in the porn industry have been abused. But how far do we take regulation?

M:Here we go again, your false argument.

AS: No it is not a false argument. In my line above...I clearly question whether "WE" (meaning all of society) may be going to far with regulating everything we feel harmed by. I didn't say that you personally would ban anything. What I am saying is that IF we establish that your premise is correct. I.e. hardcore porn is degrading, abusive and inhumane, then why would we not ban it? If something is wrong...then it should be banned! I am trying to make the argument that if you don't think it should be banned, then you don't think it is wrong. That quite possibly you understand that a lot of normal people like hardcore sex. So then if normal people like hardcore sex...then it ceases to be degrading abusive sex and is becomes the norm.

M:Certainly you have normalised something that I find disturbing due to its abusiveness, yes.

AS: I haven't "normalized" a thing. It has been around since the dawn of man. Blame nature for normalizing it...not me.

M: however, no one in their right mind would have unprotected sex with numerous partners.

AS: I agree. So then...none of us really knows where our partners have been. So should we make sure we always have protected sex? Do you make sure you always have protected sex? Not to mention...in most porn I have viewed today...the people are wearing protection. If porn stars wear protection...do you think it is less degrading or abusive?

M:Then you are very lucky! Presumably you got yourself checked out for STDs afterwards.

AS: I ask you the same thing. I only have sex with one man, my husband. Am I supposed to be checked out for std's after every encounter? I don't understand your reasoning. I am simply saying that both you and I have equal chances of getting an std, even though you might believe you are at less of a risk because you don't watch porn or have 'degrading sex'.

M: You are trying to rationalise or de-sensitise something that for others is perceived as deeply disturbing.

AS: Then the only rational thing to do is to find out how many humans like their sex hardcore...and then see which of us are the 'others'. You seem to be saying that all people who like hardcore sex or porn are "normalizing' it because they have become de'sensitized'. I am saying that if the majority of people find it exciting then it is a normal act of human sexuality.

M:As said, clearly you don't understand! I see nothing unnatural about sex. Why do you imagine this? There's nothing unnatural about violence, racism, misogyny, homophobia and all other forms of degradation either - for this is what humans are capable of. However, some of us find such behaviours distasteful and inhumane - whether combined with sex or without it. No doubt you will misinterpret this comment too!

AS: I am not trying to misinterpret you...I am trying to understand what it is you want to happen. You don't want to ban something you find inhumane?!? I don't think you can actually mean this...I think you are being dishonest here. If I considered something inhumane...like for example...murder...I most certainly would want it banned! How can you say that hardcore porn is inhumane and then still want it to continue? I just don't get it.

Morpheus
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Re: What causes porn addiction???

Post by Morpheus » Tue May 26, 2009 4:24 pm

AS: It is not real sex...it is fantasy.

:?: So now harcore porn is not real sex? So you are saying no penis ever enters any body orifice? As it's not real sex, then why not simply imagine such goings on rather than expecting other people to act out your sexual fantasies at great risk to themselves?

According to you, I'm supposedly saying that feminist porn is 'ethical'. I've already stated that the term seems like a contradiction. I'm saying that if you must have porn, then why not consider a different variety which is not focused on degradation and hatred? If we are to believe the proponents of feminist porn, men do like this variety too. I've not seen feminist porn, so I'm in no position to promote is as more 'ethical'. However, if it is devoid of sadism, then it may well be less harmful should a child get hold of it.

AS wrote: Even if it was male only fantasy...what is wrong with males having their own fantasies?

I'm not saying people shouldn't have fantasies. Here's another of your false arguments. This time you are confusing fantasy with reality. Porn is hardcore reality, not just something inside someone's head. The sexual acts are real. What began as a sexual fantasy in the mind is literally fleshed out through hardcore pornography.

Where on earth did I say that "men who enjoy sexual fantasies are 'damaged' and the ones who like straight vanilla sex are the ones who are 'good." No, this is your misinterpretation. Why do you keep misinterpretating almost everything I say? I can hazard a guess: something I've said has hit home, but you don't have the courage to admit it. So, instead of just accepting that we disagree - or even perhaps accepting that I may have raised something for you to think about more deeply, you continue to bombard me with straw man arguments in the hope that I'll start believing that I actually said what you think I said. Robert McCluskey, you've certainly been here before!

AS: Also, how do you say in one breathe that men's version of porn is any less ethical than the feminist version of porn? Seems a little sexist.

Eh? Where on earth did I say that? If I had said that, you'd have cut and pasted it here. So, yet another false statement. Go and find out about feminist porn yourself. According to the makers, it's for everyone - straight, gay, bi, transgendered, any which way you like it. The more usual porn is misogynist, portraying men being abusive to women.

AS: I don't think there is a man(or woman) alive who would not be attracted to hardcore porn if they viewed it.

So, I must be dead then. So, too, your husband, for you told us earlier that he doesn't like porn. The little bit I've seen on the Internet whilst researching this topic did nothing for me erotically. Rather, some of the images made me feel a bit queasy. But I can see why such material would be harmful for young people and emotionally immature men with violent and misogynistic tendencies. Such material merely reinforces the idea that women like to be raped and abused.

It would be impossible to ban porn, as we all know. Especially with the advent of the Internet which has introduced increasingly violent and hateful versions of porn to a wider audience, an audience far wider than ever before. People need to educate themselves in the ways I've already outlined. It's only when people stop buying into porn (even viewing it for free over the Internet), will it cease to be of interest to those who profit most from it. When there's no longer much money to be made out of porn, you can be certain there will be a reduction in output.

AS: I ask you the same thing. I only have sex with one man, my husband. Am I supposed to be checked out for std's after every encounter? I don't understand your reasoning. I am simply saying that both you and I have equal chances of getting an std, even though you might believe you are at less of a risk because you don't watch porn or have 'degrading sex'.

I thought you said you had had risky sex in the past - by that I thought you meant unprotected promiscuous sex. So you've created yet another diversion by saying it's not what you meant at all.


AS: I am not trying to misinterpret you...I am trying to understand what it is you want to happen. You don't want to ban something you find inhumane?!? I don't think you can actually mean this...I think you are being dishonest here. If I considered something inhumane...like for example...murder...I most certainly would want it banned! How can you say that hardcore porn is inhumane and then still want it to continue? I just don't get it.

Who says I want it to continue? Read what I said above about education and decrease in demand. Where there's money to be made out of porn, there will be those who will continue to produce it. A ban won't work even if I wanted a ban, due to the nature of the Internet. If you think that calling for a ban on murder would work, then tell me how it would work. Murder (other than state sanctioned murder) is already illegal, but it still happens. I'd like to ban all wars, but there's no chance of a ban working because warfare has become normalised in our consciousness. The only way to change things for the better is by changing the collective consciousness. We can increase awareness of an issue by looking at it from differing perspectives.

To say that I'm being dishonest is the last straw in this largely straw man argument. So let's call it a day.

RachelAnn
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Re: What causes porn addiction???

Post by RachelAnn » Tue May 26, 2009 4:39 pm

Richard, how could de-regulation and proscriptive laws co-exist, concerning the safety and well-being of children in such a Richard Baronesque society?

Richard Baron
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Re: What causes porn addiction???

Post by Richard Baron » Tue May 26, 2009 5:11 pm

RachelAnn wrote:Richard, how could de-regulation and proscriptive laws co-exist, concerning the safety and well-being of children in such a Richard Baronesque society?
If you mean how could we deregulate and proscribe the same thing, then I don't think we could. If I suggested that we could or should, then I made a mistake. But it is possible that deregulation would produce a better overall result, if it meant that the thing deregulated was no longer seen as a big deal, on account of the deregulation. Prohibition of alcohol is the obvious parallel. I don't know whether children's consumption of alcohol went down or up during prohibition, and I also don't know what would happen in the context of porn.

We might be able to get some idea by comparing countries with different levels of regulation (I mean countries with different middle-of-the-road policies, not the theocratic extremes), or by comparing times before and after a policy change within one country. In the UK, for instance, films and still photographs of penetration and ejaculation were not allowed (but still available, of course) up to something like ten years ago, and then there was a sudden change in policy. Unfortunately the rise of the Internet came at about the same time, and that would make it hard to draw any conclusions about the effect of the policy change.

There is also the question, which has been raised before in this thread, of the extent to which we should limit the freedom of everyone in order to protect the vulnerable, and the question of the extent to which we should place responsibility on parents to protect their children, so that the rest of us do not, in enjoying our freedoms, place them at risk (subject to how assiduous the parents are).

If you mean how can we deregulate some things and proscribe others, I don't think that there is a big problem except when it is difficult to define the boundary - which it sometimes is.

RachelAnn
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Re: What causes porn addiction???

Post by RachelAnn » Tue May 26, 2009 6:28 pm

There is also the question, which has been raised before in this thread, of the extent to which we should limit the freedom of everyone in order to protect the vulnerable, and the question of the extent to which we should place responsibility on parents to protect their children, so that the rest of us do not, in enjoying our freedoms, place them at risk (subject to how assiduous the parents are).
Richard, you are helping me to think these things through :) .
Assiduous parents... sadly, many parents do not uphold their responsibilities, and Kantian deontology ought apply to parenting duties if nothing else. That is a whole other pot of coffee.
In regards to parents, kids, and deregulated pornography/sexing/nudity: Don't demand the law, the school, the municipal pool, to parent your progeny.
I "violate" my kids' "privacy" on their computers. Many an "inappropriate" site, email, or sickopervneedsitcutoff have I discovered. Kids do not invite them: "Hey, Mr. Pedophile, over here!" -- the bastards hunt online, try to hook them, and reel them in.
If you mean how can we deregulate some things and proscribe others, I don't think that there is a big problem except when it is difficult to define the boundary - which it sometimes is.
Back to square one, eh? That is the crux of the matter, defining the boundaries, so as to guarantee safety (of the vulnerable especially) while minimizing regulations.

Michael Oakeshott (my philosopher 'crush') clears ground on this, in On Human Conduct, around Pp.60-71.

My kids, if they knew I spied on them, would no doubt holler for the American Civil Liberties Union and vengefully switch my French roast coffee to decaf. Brats.

artisticsolution
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Re: What causes porn addiction???

Post by artisticsolution » Tue May 26, 2009 8:26 pm

Hi Morpheus,

M: :?: So now harcore porn is not real sex? So you are saying no penis ever enters any body orifice? As it's not real sex, then why not simply imagine such goings on rather than expecting other people to act out your sexual fantasies at great risk to themselves?

AS: Maybe we are talking about 2 separate things here. I will try again. People like sex for all sorts of various reasons. One of them being fantasy. When I talk about fantasy in this manner I am talking about sexual acts that you want to do for the sake of fun that may have nothing to do with how you wish to be treated in the actual world...by men. One popular fantasy of 'normal' women is a rape fantasy. Does that mean women want to be raped? NO! Does that mean we might like to role play with a man we trusted just for the sheer fun and enjoyment of playing? YES! To tell women that this behavior is degrading to them is wrong. To tell men that all women they see in a hardcore porn film has been abused and therefore is really performing an act of degrading and abusive sex...is wrong. I am all for education (we have that in common) but I am not for trying to tell people that their likes and dislikes are wrong. It is okay to bring your fantasies to life with a real person if you are an adult. It is not wrong.

M:I'm not saying people shouldn't have fantasies. Here's another of your false arguments. This time you are confusing fantasy with reality. Porn is hardcore reality, not just something inside someone's head. The sexual acts are real. What began as a sexual fantasy in the mind is literally fleshed out through hardcore pornography.

AS: Yes...but the sentiment behind the act is what is not real sometimes. I believe education must be provided in a responsible way...not just in order to boost an agenda. I want education of the facts only. You are advocating education that is designed to say specific sex acts are wrong. You say they are wrong because they are degrading and inhumane. This is false as we have already established that many 'normal' people like hardcore porn and many 'normal' people don't. I would agree to education...like you...but I would disagree with your objective. Which I believe is:

Human trafficking is degrading, inhumane, abusive.
Human trafficking has been known to be involved in hardcore porn.
Therefore, hardcore porn is degrading, inhuman, abusive.

(Am I correct so far?)

What I have been saying is...

Human trafficking has been known to involve hardcore porn.
Human trafficking is degrading inhumane, abusive.
Not all hardcore porn involves human trafficking.
Therefore not all hardcore porn is degrading, inhumane, abusive.

I agree that I have misread you a couple of times...but you have jumped to conclusions about me as well. So I apologize and I am trying very hard to stay on track. Will you please do the same for me?

MWhere on earth did I say that "men who enjoy sexual fantasies are 'damaged' and the ones who like straight vanilla sex are the ones who are 'good." No, this is your misinterpretation.

AS: I never said you said that...I said this is what society has done by making sex out to be either good or bad. I don't believe it is up to you or I to tell consenting adults what is or is not degrading sex.

M:I can hazard a guess: something I've said has hit home, but you don't have the courage to admit it.

AS: But I have admitted it! I believe in a person's right to choose without being fed a bunch of propaganda! The facts do not support your premise that all hardcore sex is degrading, inhumane and abusive.


AS: I don't think there is a man(or woman) alive who would not be attracted to hardcore porn if they viewed it.

M:So, I must be dead then. So, too, your husband, for you told us earlier that he doesn't like porn.

AS: LOL I didn't say this...see how we both are misinterpreting each other. Can you admit that you are also to blame for strawman arguments? Yes...you are correct. My husband does not like porn...he does not think it's degrading though. He just doesn't like it cause it's fake. Also, he is more your vanilla sex type of guy...and I love that about him (opposites attract) Just because I like variety doesn't mean I don't love my husband more. This is what I mean about giving over my power and allowing him to be the patriarch of our family. Hardcore sex is not anywhere close to the love (and great sex) I have with my husband. However, in the past I have been in love with men who like hardcore sex....and they never once disrespected me. In fact, all of the lovers in my life have treated me like a princess...because I demand that sort of treatment from the men I choose to love. No respect, no relationship. I have very few lover because of this...most men do not understand that life in the bedroom is not life in reality. So then they do not get to have me. When I was dating...my motto was, "NEXT!" Because if a guy showed the least amount of disrespect he was out the door before he even made it to the bedroom. I really wish you and I could start over...because I don't know how to communicate very well, doesn't mean I don't respect your ideas I am just frustrated by my lack of ability to make you understand I am not a seedy low life character. I am a normal woman...just like you.

M:Such material merely reinforces the idea that women like to be raped and abused.

AS: No...this is false. I am a 'normal' healthy woman. I don't want to be raped or abused. I like hardcore porn. If there is one of us...then doesn't that suggest there would be more? So then....any education we need to supply needs to clearly state...women do not want to be raped...hardcore porn sometimes can be a sexual fantasy they wish to play out in the safety of their own homes with people they trust. Cherish this as a gift not as an invitation that she wishes to be abused.

M: When there's no longer much money to be made out of porn, you can be certain there will be a reduction in output.

AS: For sure...but at what cost? Our freedom? Is it worth it? Here's another scenerio...we could educate people about the facts only...leaving it up to them what is right or wrong. Part of the facts would be to show statistics on the other side as well...meaning...not just statistic on human trafficking...but statistics about people like me as well. Normal healthy people who just like to role play. That way they could make an informed decision about the porn they buy. Do you think that is a good compromise?

M:I thought you said you had had risky sex in the past - by that I thought you meant unprotected promiscuous sex. So you've created yet another diversion by saying it's not what you meant at all.

AS: I never said I had risky sex...that was your thoughts. I said I like hardcore porn. In the past I have enjoyed hardcore sex with lovers...but you can be sure I would never subject myself to hardcore sex with a stranger! I am not that stupid! Men are physically stronger than us...you have to be completely sure they are sane before you agree to the type of sex which requires complete trust. Also...I'm a bitch...I always made my lovers jump through hoops to have me...so I weeded out many of the ones who did not cherish me. So...after a period of courting went by....then...yes...I used protection and caution (protected my heart) for the first few months...but then when I was in a steady relationship...I began to trust and threw caution to the wind because I don't like using condoms.

Morpheus
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Re: What causes porn addiction???

Post by Morpheus » Tue May 26, 2009 9:05 pm

AS, I don't care what you do in private. That's your business. Women can have whatever fantasies they wish. However, there is no need to have real people act out such fantasies for all the reasons outlined ad nauseum. I will not move from my viewpoint simply to satisfy your need for me to agree with you. I'm looking at the issue of hardcore porn holistically - close up and from a distance. Meaning, it's effects on the individual performers, the viewers and the effect on society as a whole. You are in denial over much of this, particularly denying that many porn performers are emotionally damaged individuals (read the research papers if you can't accept this instinctively). Yet again you are mispresenting the human trafficking aspect. I'm not going to repeat myself for the umpteenth time as it's getting boring.

I don't know why you are so concerned about my views on this. You are in a win, win situation - you have your porn and a culture that condones it. It's far more difficult for people like me to live in a culture that bothers us on many levels. Indeed, I've always lived on the edge of society, for so much of mainstream thinking leaves me in despair. So please consider how it is for people like me. I'm having to be incredibly tolerant every day of my life - far more tolerant than you could possibly imagine.

So, my final comment is this: you will be flogging a dead horse if you are expecting me to continue this repetitive dialogue. I want to remain on good terms with you, so let's leave it here...please!

To illustrate my point:
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RachelAnn
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Re: What causes porn addiction???

Post by RachelAnn » Tue May 26, 2009 11:37 pm

Artisticsolution:
One popular fantasy of 'normal' women is a rape fantasy. Does that mean women want to be raped?
To paraphrase and condense a few papers and books on women and rape: women fantasize about a "rape" that is generally a seduction, a fantasy in which the man cannot control his passion and desire for her. The papers' studies (two USA, one Belgium), pretty much concurred on that area of women's sexual rape fantasy. So once again, definitions about what is rape fantasy according to a woman, a man (men have similar fantasies, thought they do not call it 'rape').
Hey - be back tomorrow - my books just arrived!

artisticsolution
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Re: What causes porn addiction???

Post by artisticsolution » Wed May 27, 2009 1:24 am

RachelAnn wrote:Artisticsolution:
One popular fantasy of 'normal' women is a rape fantasy. Does that mean women want to be raped?
To paraphrase and condense a few papers and books on women and rape: women fantasize about a "rape" that is generally a seduction, a fantasy in which the man cannot control his passion and desire for her. The papers' studies (two USA, one Belgium), pretty much concurred on that area of women's sexual rape fantasy. So once again, definitions about what is rape fantasy according to a woman, a man (men have similar fantasies, thought they do not call it 'rape').
Hey - be back tomorrow - my books just arrived!
Yes...you are right about woman's rape fantasy. It still doesn't mean we want men to rape us for real. It's inhumane and shows his genetic weakness in not being able to control his mind or body. The rape fantasy does not involve an mentally ill man who hates or wants to harm women. A man's desire is pretty much a given if he is attracted to women...his love is another thing all together. When a man loves a woman he respects her whole being...sexual limits or insatiable desire.

RachelAnn
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Location: Troy, NY

Re: What causes porn addiction???

Post by RachelAnn » Wed May 27, 2009 2:42 pm

But it is possible that deregulation would produce a better overall result, if it meant that the thing deregulated was no longer seen as a big deal, on account of the deregulation. Prohibition of alcohol is the obvious parallel. I don't know whether children's consumption of alcohol went down or up during prohibition, and I also don't know what would happen in the context of porn.
If pornography were no big deal, then it would not have been regulated in the first place.
On the other hand, that it is regulated not only reflects perceptions about sex, it ensures continuation of them.

Deregulation might remove the tendency to equate the nude image with the pornographic image. And the pornographic image would fall into a neater boundary should regulating some aspect of porn be deemed necessary, if at all.

What might happen if pornography were deregulated, given current cultural taboos?
Morpheus mentions breastfeeding. When breasts are considered "naughty," public breastfeeding violates lewdness laws.

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