What causes porn addiction???

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artisticsolution
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Re: What causes porn addiction???

Post by artisticsolution » Sun May 17, 2009 5:52 pm

Nisus wrote:
My judgement is based on the porn movies I have already watched (yes, like all the other young Western males I have watched porn too, though I am very happy today for not resorting to this kind of rubbish anymore). The scene is always invariably made in the sense that the guy is the 'tough man' who fucks all bitches who are around him and the woman is the whore, the slut ever ready to be fucked by every man available. And the scene must necessarily end with the guy(s) cumming or spitting on the girl's face. If the idea is not humiliating the girl, what's it?
It's called ejaculation, nisus, nothing more nothing less. If this is what you consider disgusting sexuality is disgusting then you an RU are right...all sexual acts are rape and men use women for the soul purpose of pleasure. If that is true then ANY woman a man has sex with is being humiliated. So then women are damned if the are 'good' girls and they are damned if they are not and thus you have reduced them all into something inhuman. So now...where does that leave you? You have no choice then but to have children with a 'slut'. How do you see yourself overcoming this dilemma? If a person cease to be a person, then they become an object, and who cares if you humiliate and object...right?

Sex is not a humiliation...if it was...then men are the ones being humiliated because women are the ones who demand being treated 'special' (above all other women) even to the point of creating this dynamic in the first place! You feel this way about women because women (not just your mother...but your father's mother, your girlfriend and her mother...in fact every woman in society) have told you to believe this way. Women do it in very subtle ways. It is how women win wars. We use mind control very subtly in order to make sure we are seen as the best. And you men fall for it...hell most women don't even know they are doing it! Your male domination is all an illusion, brought on by a woman whose illusion of 'goodness' can control the world. Hell, even that Shelly lubbin woman was using her 'womanly' tricks to one up herself...trying to pull people's heart strings into cherishing her (above all other women) for being abused and then writing about it to help others.

Women are very clever.

Morpheus
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Re: What causes porn addiction???

Post by Morpheus » Sun May 17, 2009 7:25 pm

AS: As I said in my previous post, we are talking about different things here: I'm talking about the monetary greed, the drug-fuelled abuse and exploitation of emotionally damaged people (i.e. the Porn Industry), whereas you are talking about sex itself. Whether or not Shelley Lubbin is using her 'feminine tricks' to get people to 'cherish her' is beside the point. Personally, I wish she'd leave God out of it, although I can't blame her for becoming a Christian. But that's my own prejudice getting in the way. Certainly she is right to highlight the casualties of the porn industry - that so many porn performers are adult victims of child sexual abuse. Getting into porn is neither a pretty nor a happy occupation.

As for the male domination part, well there are plenty of male victims of the porn industry too. Quite a few have committed suicide according to the information I've started to uncover. Next time you view porn, consider what the performers may be suffering in their hearts. Think that at least one of those adults was once a small, helpless child screaming inside. Think that the money you paid for that piece of porn is perpetuating a market for a ruthless and often criminal enterprise.

artisticsolution
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Re: What causes porn addiction???

Post by artisticsolution » Sun May 17, 2009 9:20 pm

Hi Morpheus,

M:Getting into porn is neither a pretty nor a happy occupation.

AS: I never said that it was. However, part of the reason it is an 'unhappy' occupation is because of the mindset that sex itself is dirty, shameful and a sin. If porn was a legit industry, would the stars be held in any less regard than sports stars, Hollywood actresses or actors? Of course not. The Playboy Bunnies seem like every other girl to me...some are happy...some are not I suppose. It seems to be you are allowing your prejudice to cloud your reason. And here is a clue into the reasons why that is....

M: Next time you view porn, consider what the performers may be suffering in their hearts. Think that at least one of those adults was once a small, helpless child screaming inside. Think that the money you paid for that piece of porn is perpetuating a market for a ruthless and often criminal enterprise."

AS: The logic you used above is designed to make people (me in this case) feel shame over their sexual preferences. This is what most of us are taught. But the cold hard fact is, porn is free. You can get it from people just like you and I everyday. Regular people...good people...enjoy sex...in all sorts of scenarios. This is not an exploitation if it is between 2 consenting adults! The perpetuation of the thought that some sex is 'good' and some sex is 'bad' divides people into groups of bad and good. This is why idealism is sometimes a bad thing...because we, as humans...tend to think our way is the 'best' way and so every other person should conform to our way or else they should be ashamed of themselves. Do you see how easy it is for you to label me uneducated because I don't agree with you? I happen to live in Las Vegas...Sin City...I have quite a few friends of all walks of life. I believe I am as educated as you. Do you see yourself trying to shame me into conforming to your way above? I am not faulting you for it...I am simply pointing it out to make a point.

The funny thing is...you have no idea how I live my life. I probably have had less sexual partners than anyone I know (good girls included). However, I don't think this makes me better than anyone else...because I have my hangups too. I have many friends in the porn industry...some happy and some terribly confused...but the thing is....I have just as many friends who are 'good girls' who are just as unhappy and confused.

Maybe we both need to step back and look at this from another point of view. What do you consider "acceptable sex?"

We have already established that you think 'I am paying for porn' (which is untrue as it is free online) and that the purchase in itself is causing these women and men to be 'used.' I say, men and women will always 'use' each other for sexual pleasure and the reason that these consenting ADULTS in the porn industry are unhappy is because society has made them feel their sexuality is shameful. Which in turn causes some people to abuse them and then come to the conclusion that, "THEY (adult porn stars/people who enjoy watching) are shameful. Therefore THEY need to be punished. AND I am the one to do it since I am not shameful"

RachelAnn
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Re: What causes porn addiction???

Post by RachelAnn » Sun May 17, 2009 9:36 pm

Artisticsolution sezz:
I happen to live in Las Vegas...Sin City
That's what the Texas Baptists used to call New Orleans, and I lived in that particular City of Sin for over 15 years. Perhaps that is why my views are similar to yours, the exposure - ahem - if you will, to that way of life and its professionals. In the northeast prostitution is part and parcel of criminal exploitation. In New Orleans, women (and men) were adults who slept with a man for pay as well as dined with and accompanied him to some social events. These were not children, or drug-addicted 18 year olds. These were healthy adult women (and men) who made choices suitable for them.
But that way of life is, of course, culturally embedded prostitution.
Anyhow, I am glad, Artisticsolution, that you understand what I mean when I discuss this type of whorin'. Ain't no shame, cher!

Camus Society
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Re: What causes porn addiction???

Post by Camus Society » Sun May 17, 2009 10:29 pm

Nicus, I can understand what you are saying and how you feel about porn. But if we're going to discuss it we need to discuss it carefully. You seem to be only describing a particular type of porn. No soft-core porn contains sexual penetration (UK definition) and so can not include the type of scenes you describe. In the same way, no 'femdom' porn in which a female is a mistress and an male is a slave can be the type of sex you describe. Obscure niche fetishes (like fetished for long fingernails, stockings, feet, etc.) do not involve the kind of violent scenes you describe. The type of porn you describe is a particular genre of porn that caters for men who want to see rough and violent scenes.

You may have a point that ALL porn, no matter where it is topless pinups or simulated rape (self-described degrading porn) is degrading and humiliating but you will have a lot of work convincing the majority of people. No-one yet has managed to do it. Without a convincing argument that what most people view as soft-core titiliation is in fact an act of violence, then such labelling will put people off taking your point seriously. It is more effective to concentrate on porn that actually promotes itself as degrading to women and then to argue why it isn't in fact harmless fantasy, than to target ALL porn. You can, once you have won that argument, then move on to other kinds of porn.

____

Shelly Lubbin does not present a solid argument. Highlighting and listing what she considers the casualties of porn is not a reasonable argument. The number one cause of death in the retail industry is murder. That is simply because the retail industry is not particularly dangerous, most people retire before they die of old age, and fatal workplace accidents are rare. However, if you listed all the people who had been murdered, then this line of work would appear very dangerous indeed. In fact, you could go on to argue that working in retail leads to murder - using these facts as your 'evidence'. In the UK, we had a massive hysteria over the MMR jabs (measles, mumps, rubella) because a doctor published a paper which looked at a few cases in which children given the MMR jab went on to develop Autism. The papers picked this up and, using what seemed to be case study after case study, frightened parents into thinking that MMR jabs led to Autism, we now know this is not the case. Or more accurately there is nothing like a strong case despite appearances when you list the known cases one after the other.

Asking people if they would like their daughter to work in porn is a loaded question. If you ask me if I'd like my daughter working in porn, I'd say no. If you asked if I wanted her to be a toilet cleaner, I'd say no. I'd also say no to checkout assistant, fast food worker, factory packer and any other low-paid menial labour. This isn't because I think there is any thing morally wrong with those jobs it just that I have higher hopes for her, and I think she'd have a happier life doing something else. If you asked me if I wanted her to one day have a baby, I'd say yes. If you asked me if I wanted her to one day have sex, I'd rather not discuss it. If you asked if she wanted to do any particular sex act, even within a loving and caring relationship, I'd say no - I don't want her to do it. If you asked me if I wanted her to become a Hindu, I'd say no - not because I think that it's morally wrong for anyone to become a Hindu or that you can't become a Hindu and be happy but because I have my own religious views and that influences my hopes for my child. I did once have an argument with a guy who seriously suggested that people with low-paid jobs were bad people and their jobs were a punishment for laziness and stupidity. When I disagreed, his tactic was to ask my if I'd be happy if my son or daughter cleaned toilets for a living. His sophistry is obvious, asking the same question about porn (especially after describing it as degrading, rape, etc.) is bad argument.

Of course, just because I think that using Shelly Lubbin's tactic, or asking if you'd want your child to work in the porn industry, are bad arguments it doesn't mean that I'm pro-porn. I beleive that there are better arguments to be found.

*edit: I forgot to mention. The clients I treated for porn addiction were not being treated because of porn being bad. They were addicted to a particular activity. Food is not bad in itself but compulsive over-eating is.

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Nisus
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Re: What causes porn addiction???

Post by Nisus » Mon May 18, 2009 12:10 am

Camus,

thanks for your answer, and I recognize that I have been really a bit harsh and extreme. What happens is that I really think that porn is an industry dedicated to the sexual abuse of women, and nothing gets more on my nerves than seeing women and children being abused...

But you're right: not all sorts of porn fits the description I gave. That doesn't change the fact that a gang bang scene is utterly disgusting.
artisticsolution wrote: It's called ejaculation, nisus, nothing more nothing less. If this is what you consider disgusting sexuality is disgusting then you an RU are right...all sexual acts are rape and men use women for the soul purpose of pleasure. If that is true then ANY woman a man has sex with is being humiliated. So then women are damned if the are 'good' girls and they are damned if they are not and thus you have reduced them all into something inhuman. So now...where does that leave you? You have no choice then but to have children with a 'slut'. How do you see yourself overcoming this dilemma? If a person cease to be a person, then they become an object, and who cares if you humiliate and object...right?

Sex is not a humiliation...if it was...then men are the ones being humiliated because women are the ones who demand being treated 'special' (above all other women) even to the point of creating this dynamic in the first place! You feel this way about women because women (not just your mother...but your father's mother, your girlfriend and her mother...in fact every woman in society) have told you to believe this way. Women do it in very subtle ways. It is how women win wars. We use mind control very subtly in order to make sure we are seen as the best. And you men fall for it...hell most women don't even know they are doing it! Your male domination is all an illusion, brought on by a woman whose illusion of 'goodness' can control the world. Hell, even that Shelly lubbin woman was using her 'womanly' tricks to one up herself...trying to pull people's heart strings into cherishing her (above all other women) for being abused and then writing about it to help others.

Women are very clever.
Tell me, Artistic, do you know the difference between a natural sexual act and an artificial one? Do you know that in porn all is fake? Do you understand that what I criticize is the message overspread by porn movies, not the people themselves?

Do you see the difference between a man having a consensual sexual relation with his woman or his girlfriend and his letting this woman being gang raped by a lot of men?

No, you obviously don't. If you did, you wouldn't dare talk about porn, respect and women's right in one and the same post.

But as I said before, I understand you. You're a product of the mentality of your time. There is nothing that you can say about porn that every other 'open-minded' female of your time wouldn't say. A pity.

artisticsolution
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Re: What causes porn addiction???

Post by artisticsolution » Mon May 18, 2009 4:43 am

N: Do you know that in porn all is fake?

AS: Do you understand that is exactly whats appealing about porn for a woman? To not have to pretend we are angels so our men won't disrespect us when we show them a glimpse of our sexuality? Women are in a catch 22...if we show our sexuality to our mate we risk losing respect in the relationship. However, if we hide our sexuality...we have respect...but we don't get to go buck wild!

Imagine for a moment being in a relationship with someone like you. Imagine having to look pretty, be virginal, innocent, say the right thing, do the right thing, cook for you, clean for you...and for what?!? So someone like you can think you are nothing but a child.. incapable of true intelligence. So someone like you can laugh and put you down? Only to decide at a later date that they are bored with you and they need a good fuck with the slut down the road?! Oh yeah...that's every woman's dream all right. :roll: Personally, I would rather have the porn girl's life than your girlfriends. At least the porn star can clock out and go home.

N:Do you understand that what I criticize is the message overspread by porn movies, not the people themselves?

AS:What message do you criticize? That women should not debase themselves? Oh yes...I forgot...you know them better than they know themselves...so of course you would know how they should behave and what sexual fantasies they 'should' have. :roll:

N:Do you see the difference between a man having a consensual sexual relation with his woman or his girlfriend and his letting this woman being gang raped by a lot of men?

AS: Do think men should be able to give their consent to having sex with a lot of women? Do think a different set of rules should apply to women?

N:No, you obviously don't. If you did, you wouldn't dare talk about porn, respect and women's right in one and the same post.

AS: I respect a woman's right to make her own choices, bad and good. Just like men. If men abuse women because they have made a bad choice then shame on those men. If women abuse women because they have made a bad choice...then shame on those women. etc.. We are talking about human beings here...flesh and blood. They will not be perfect. You degrade women when you think they are not capable of making a decision to consent to sex. It is not your place to say. The only reason the abuse continues is because of men like you who divide women into groups. This is the reason you got tired of your girlfriend. You admit to using her...she's a REAL person with feelings...and then you have the nerve to tell me I don't respect women?! Please.

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Satyr
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Re: What causes porn addiction???

Post by Satyr » Mon May 18, 2009 6:59 am

artisticsolution wrote: Hi RachelAnn,

Yes, I think it is awful when people abuse children. Furthermore, I believe it is the attitudes of people such as Nisus, RU, Satyr who believe women should remain pure...be virgins...the perpetuate child pornography. Because basically, the more liberated women become in their sexuality the less like it will be to find a virgin to use for the one time shot of losing that virginity. The whole mind set makes it so a man will have to look for younger and younger children, in order to fulfill some sick desire to possess another.
Little stupid fuckin' woman. Caricaturing me and placing ideas and opinions in my mouth will not further your normal, average, culturally normal modern mythology.

If you wish to understand ME then you talk to ME.

If you wish to understand your fag, average, idiot, husband, and the effeminate male, retarded, children you have produced with him, then you talk to THEM.

The rest is politics.

PeterWes
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Re: What causes porn addiction???

Post by PeterWes » Mon May 18, 2009 8:57 am

Nikolai wrote:It was actually a serious question, not least because I think thee might be truth in what you say
Your previous response seemed defensive.

In pornography the performers are only mimickers of humans in love, tragic puppets impersonating what they believe are the feelings and emotions of real people. Warmth, intimacy and genuine affection are replaced by fake smiles, mechanical voices, automated movements and glazed, empty eyes. These are humans reduced to soulless, narcissistic machines.

What we witness in pornography - and something already alluded to by others - is nothing more than abused children recreating their own trauma. Revisiting upon themselves the sexual and psychological debasement that turned them into empty caricatures of humans in the first place. They have a physical presence, sure, but psychically they are only shadows; emotionally they are no longer with us. Many of these performers end up dead from drug addiction, violent crime or AIDS. None of them lead happy lives.

The inhabitants of this little world do everything to mimic their adult counterparts, many even fantasize that for them pornography is only a stepping stone to serious acting, their grasp on reality is so tenuous (the truth is they are unable to grow up, they are still searching for the love and care that will make them whole but which was denied to them as children and which they believe they can somehow find in sex with strangers (they were merely sex toys for their emotionally distant parents)). They even have their own award ceremonies and honors which shadow the Oscars.

As far as the latent homosexual is concerned, his nature is an artifice. He has repressed his real feelings out of consciousness (or even destroyed them) and erected a false sexuality in its place. His sexual attraction to the opposite sex is cosmetic, skin-deep, cerebral, self consciously nurtured over his formative years. Pornography is the perfect vehicle for relieving his sexual tension, there is no somatic component, no emotional involvement in what is essentially a mechanical act deriving its energy from a narcissistic confabulation.

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Re: What causes porn addiction???

Post by Morpheus » Mon May 18, 2009 10:52 am

Peter wrote: What we witness in pornography - and something already alluded to by others - is nothing more than abused children recreating their own trauma. Revisiting upon themselves the sexual and psychological debasement that turned them into empty caricatures of humans in the first place. They have a physical presence, sure, but psychically they are only shadows; emotionally they are no longer with us. Many of these performers end up dead from drug addiction, violent crime or AIDS. None of them lead happy lives.

Yes this is what I'm talking about too. It's easy for some to write off what I'm saying by imagining I'm talking about morals, as in the religious sense. Far from it.

Choice? Aside from those who get involved with porn because they are emtionally damaged people, there is the issue of human trafficking where impoverished women from Eastern European countries (and elsewhere) are drugged, kidnapped and coerced into prostitution (including porn films). There's no way of knowing when watching a porn film how many of the participants really are doing it by choice. It's also a fact of life that indiscriminate sex commonly results in STDs, including herpes and AIDS. Emotional disharmony aside, how on earth can prostitution in its variant forms be a healthy activity when disease within the 'profession' is rife?

As for the notion that we mustn't allow ourselves to use emotional tactics to talk people out of supporting the porn industry, well that's ludicrous. It's impossible for human beings to be purely intellectual about anything, particularly when we are talking about sexual interaction. Certainly we can't help but have an emotional reaction when something affects us directly. As I said, I would certainly do my best to dissuade a child of my own from entering the self-destructive porn industry. Likewise, as a pacifist, I'd do my best to talk them out of joining the military - of becoming pawns of the State. Thankfully my two sons, now in their early 30s, share my pacifist views, so I've been spared the task. Likewise, they don't support the porn industry.

If my sons had chosen to clean toilets for a living, I certainly wouldn't judge them on that score. It's ludicrous to compare the dangerous existence of a prostitute/porn actor with the low-risk job of lavatory cleaning - low risk, that is, unless the person developed systemic anaphylaxis, an allergic reaction to the lav cleaning products.

For those who feel they can't live without porn, perhaps there should be a move towards developing a non-violent, non abusive version of erotica involving real-life couples in non-violent and mutually enjoyable scenarios? Maybe this already exists? I don't know as it's just something that comes to mind as I write. There needs to be some form of legislation to guarantee that the participants have not been drugged in order to perform, that the participants are not victims of human trafficking, and such like.

One way to help rid the market of extreme forms of porn involving real victims is to encourage people to shun the industry, neither buying hardcore pornography, nor even watching it for free. To educate people not to objectify pornography, but instead to consider the essential humanity of the individual performers. To realise that most performers are far from happy. It would also be helpful to remind ourselves that we could be viewing our own son or our daughter; our sister or our brother - even our mother or father. To put it another way, it's common for porn consumers to believe it's OK to masturbate over someone else's son, daughter, mother or father. But it's a different story entirely when it involves their own kith and kin.

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Re: What causes porn addiction???

Post by RachelAnn » Mon May 18, 2009 11:50 am

Choice? Aside from those who get involved with porn because they are emtionally damaged people, there is the issue of human trafficking where impoverished women from Eastern European countries (and elsewhere) are drugged, kidnapped and coerced into prostitution (including porn films). There's no way of knowing when watching a porn film how many of the participants really are doing it by choice. It's also a fact of life that indiscriminate sex commonly results in STDs, including herpes and AIDS. Emotional disharmony aside, how on earth can prostitution in its variant forms be a healthy activity when disease within the 'profession' is rife?
Morpheus, I have to agree with you.
The industry of pornography differs greatly, and for the worse, from the ladies of the "Maisons" to which A.S. and I were referring.

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Re: What causes porn addiction???

Post by Morpheus » Mon May 18, 2009 1:25 pm

A question for Nisus: I'd be interested to know how old you were when first exposed to hardcore porn? I ask this question because I'm wondering if it may have shaped your current worldview? In my opinion (no doubt you will correct me if I'm mistaken), it's potentially very destructive indeed for a child or young teenager to be exposed to hardcore pornography. It can have a negative infuence over the way they view women and their own sexuality. I understand that it's now pretty easy for minors to obtain such material over the Intenet. I doubt that all parents are sufficiently vigilant.

artisticsolution
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Re: What causes porn addiction???

Post by artisticsolution » Tue May 19, 2009 12:02 am

Morpheus wrote: For those who feel they can't live without porn, perhaps there should be a move towards developing a non-violent, non abusive version of erotica involving real-life couples in non-violent and mutually enjoyable scenarios? Maybe this already exists? I don't know as it's just something that comes to mind as I write. There needs to be some form of legislation to guarantee that the participants have not been drugged in order to perform, that the participants are not victims of human trafficking, and such like.
Then we agree? Porn is okay between consenting adults?

Human trafficking is not about consent and should not be legal. Do you believe playboy bunnies are products of human trafficking?

Camus Society
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Re: What causes porn addiction???

Post by Camus Society » Tue May 19, 2009 1:35 am

Human trafficking is bad in and of itself - of course it is. But does anyone actually believe that the people working in porn have been 'human trafficked'? Why would any porn producer traffick or drug humans when there is a surplus of people desperate to get into porn? The casting agencies always have more people wanting to be in porn than there are roles to be filled. Taking a strictly business point of view then trafficking humans or drugging them, or in anyway forcing people into porn does make financial sense.

I started by PhD studies as an investigation into porn. But the trouble was that most of the arguments against it were all about mud-slinging - associating porn with obviously bad things (child abuse, rape, human trafficking, etc.) but none of these associations could be proved. The general idea being that if you could always associate porn with these negative things then the association would stick. The trouble was, with all the performers I interview and in all the research studies I looked at this was never borne out. Performers worked in what we would consider 'high status jobs' and preferred porn. Performers worked in low status jobs and preferred porn. Obivously, what you see in the finished film doesn't represent what the experience is like for the actors on set. I never met a female performer who felt degraded but I did meet several male ones who did. What I also found was that films like the Saw franchise seems to have far greater negative effects on human self-esteem and happiness than porn, as did a lot of what is called 'gangster rap'. In the end I got tired of looking at the subject. Not because I couldn't find the answer I wanted but because an answer - other than all sex outside marriage isn't good for human self-esteem - couldn't be found.

All I know for sure is my own opinion but rather than dress that opinion up as argued for and reasoned fact I will suffice to stay true to my own conviction and only point out obvious contradiction and inconsistancies in others. Not to put them down, but to hopefully help make some headway into finding a convincing argument one way or the other.

artisticsolution
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Re: What causes porn addiction???

Post by artisticsolution » Tue May 19, 2009 2:19 am

Camus Society wrote: All I know for sure is my own opinion but rather than dress that opinion up as argued for and reasoned fact I will suffice to stay true to my own conviction and only point out obvious contradiction and inconsistancies in others. Not to put them down, but to hopefully help make some headway into finding a convincing argument one way or the other.
Hi Camus,

You seem very well. I strive everyday to do what you seem to do so naturally. Unfortunately, everyday I fail and my passion surpasses my thinking and I succumb to inconsistent arguments and put downs. It's good to know there are people out there, like you, who are use reason instead of insults to make an argument. I makes it seem possible to achieve.

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