How much can a person change about themselves?

Can philosophers help resolve the real problems that people have in their lives?

Moderators: AMod, iMod

Gary Childress
Posts: 8117
Joined: Sun Sep 25, 2011 3:08 pm
Location: Retirement Home for foolosophers

How much can a person change about themselves?

Post by Gary Childress »

I get kind of angry and frustrated at times talking with people on the Internet. I know I shouldn't but there seems to be something inside my mind that propels me in that direction. It's not like I can just flip a switch and turn off anger or frustration and not be angry or frustrated anymore. Some of the time I just walk away and sulk in the proverbial corner but I still feel irritated while I'm away. I suppose I could go to an anger management class or something, but if they're anything like other kinds of therapy sessions I've been to, then I wonder how much they will really help me.

What are some ways that others here handle anger? Do you get angry or frustrated sometimes talking to people on the Internet too? If not, is it something that just doesn't come to your mind or do you somehow diffuse it in some way (and if so, how)?
User avatar
Immanuel Can
Posts: 22257
Joined: Wed Sep 25, 2013 4:42 pm

Re: How much can a person change about themselves?

Post by Immanuel Can »

Gary Childress wrote: Thu Jan 28, 2021 4:05 pm ...do you somehow diffuse it in some way (and if so, how)?
Anger's usually a signal of two things: first, a feeling of threat, and secondly, a feeling of powerlessness.

Consequently, anger's the "ratcheting up" of the emotions, so as to deal with the frustration of something that has threatened one, but one feels unable to deal with it at lower pitch.

The internet is kind of perfect for creating anger, because you can find people verbally threatening your beliefs, or even threatening your image of yourself, but you have no power to make them stop doing it.

Solutions are of two kinds, I think: first, keeping perspective, when you are online. The internet is a cacophony of bad and unformed opinions, trolls, abuse, advertising, opportunism, and other kinds of dementia. Sure, there are good opinions and discussions there, at times; but far more often it's a kind of "wild west" of bad stuff. People say things here that they would never be vile enough to say to somebody's face, and they treat each other in dehumanized ways. It's sad, but it's how it goes: and keeping perspective means understanding what you're dealing with here. And it's remembering that you can't change the way people do business here by simply saying to yourself, "It ought not to be this way." You're right, but you can't change it.

Secondly, and equally importantly, you need to practice getting away from online, so that it does not become the "world" in which you locate your important relationships or your identity. If you allow that to happen, then bad people can threaten your entire sense of worth, and can repeatedly chip away at your world. No one can endure that, from a hundred angles, forever. So the minute one feels that "everything depends on" what's happening to the opinions on the internet, one is becoming a kind of mentally-ill and needs to walk away for a time. Give yourself permission not to engage it.

Then deal with the "withdrawal" symptoms, because you'll get them. The online world is addictive because it stimulates dopamine in the brain. But give yourself the break you need, or you'll become angry and miserable.
Gary Childress
Posts: 8117
Joined: Sun Sep 25, 2011 3:08 pm
Location: Retirement Home for foolosophers

Re: How much can a person change about themselves?

Post by Gary Childress »

Immanuel Can wrote: Thu Jan 28, 2021 5:32 pm
Gary Childress wrote: Thu Jan 28, 2021 4:05 pm ...do you somehow diffuse it in some way (and if so, how)?
Anger's usually a signal of two things: first, a feeling of threat, and secondly, a feeling of powerlessness.

Consequently, anger's the "ratcheting up" of the emotions, so as to deal with the frustration of something that has threatened one, but one feels unable to deal with it at lower pitch.

The internet is kind of perfect for creating anger, because you can find people verbally threatening your beliefs, or even threatening your image of yourself, but you have no power to make them stop doing it.

Solutions are of two kinds, I think: first, keeping perspective, when you are online. The internet is a cacophony of bad and unformed opinions, trolls, abuse, advertising, opportunism, and other kinds of dementia. Sure, there are good opinions and discussions there, at times; but far more often it's a kind of "wild west" of bad stuff. People say things here that they would never be vile enough to say to somebody's face, and they treat each other in dehumanized ways. It's sad, but it's how it goes: and keeping perspective means understanding what you're dealing with here. And it's remembering that you can't change the way people do business here by simply saying to yourself, "It ought not to be this way." You're right, but you can't change it.

Secondly, and equally importantly, you need to practice getting away from online, so that it does not become the "world" in which you locate your important relationships or your identity. If you allow that to happen, then bad people can threaten your entire sense of worth, and can repeatedly chip away at your world. No one can endure that, from a hundred angles, forever. So the minute one feels that "everything depends on" what's happening to the opinions on the internet, one is becoming a kind of mentally-ill and needs to walk away for a time. Give yourself permission not to engage it.

Then deal with the "withdrawal" symptoms, because you'll get them. The online world is addictive because it stimulates dopamine in the brain. But give yourself the break you need, or you'll become angry and miserable.
Thanks. That does make a lot of sense. It's always a nice thing when people can discuss issues in a civil and informed way. I appreciate your help.
User avatar
Immanuel Can
Posts: 22257
Joined: Wed Sep 25, 2013 4:42 pm

Re: How much can a person change about themselves?

Post by Immanuel Can »

Gary Childress wrote: Thu Jan 28, 2021 5:39 pm Thanks. That does make a lot of sense. It's always a nice thing when people can discuss issues in a civil and informed way. I appreciate your help.
You're a good guy, Gary. Just keep that in mind when the seas get rough. How they act doesn't make you less than you are.

And get yourself a coffee, and read a good book. You'll feel better, I promise.
User avatar
Lacewing
Posts: 6604
Joined: Wed Jul 29, 2015 2:25 am

Re: How much can a person change about themselves?

Post by Lacewing »

Gary Childress wrote: Thu Jan 28, 2021 4:05 pm I get kind of angry and frustrated at times talking with people on the Internet. I know I shouldn't but there seems to be something inside my mind that propels me in that direction. It's not like I can just flip a switch and turn off anger or frustration and not be angry or frustrated anymore. Some of the time I just walk away and sulk in the proverbial corner but I still feel irritated while I'm away. I suppose I could go to an anger management class or something, but if they're anything like other kinds of therapy sessions I've been to, then I wonder how much they will really help me.

What are some ways that others here handle anger? Do you get angry or frustrated sometimes talking to people on the Internet too? If not, is it something that just doesn't come to your mind or do you somehow diffuse it in some way (and if so, how)?
It's an interesting question.

My guess is that it is easier for people to change or choose differently when they realize/discover the other options/characteristics available. Then their path can be more mindfully chosen. Whereas, if a person thinks they have no choice -- if they think a certain response is inevitable -- they will not see/practice otherwise. This is not about blaming ourselves... it's about seeing broader potential within and for ourselves.

I also think it's helpful to have a sense of humor and a lot of love and gratitude (as we might if we were watching children act out on a stage). We tend to take too many things seriously on the stage of life. If we can step back from the stage and observe more of the show... or step back even further and observe more of the stage that the show is on... then the individual scenes and scripts don't mean as much compared to the larger view. When we practice seeing the stage and ourselves (on it) with more humor and love, we can practice becoming more skilled in having fun with it.
User avatar
Terrapin Station
Posts: 4548
Joined: Wed Aug 03, 2016 7:18 pm
Location: NYC Man

Re: How much can a person change about themselves?

Post by Terrapin Station »

I've definitely gotten frustrated talking to people online, as there are so many people interacting who are knowledgeable and educated in some ways, but utter imbeciles in many other ways while also being extremely arrogant/having really a-holish attitudes. Social interaction sites also seem to attract a lot of people with psychological issues--people who are socially maladjusted to completely socially dysfunctional. And often enough you run into someone for whom it's difficult to believe they're not institutionalized. Way too many people come across more or less like Gene Ray, the "Time Cube" guy. There are a ton of "agenda kooks."

I've finally decided to simply start (functionally) ignoring the Gene Rays. Whether that will leave anyone to talk to (as folks who don't have those issues tend to not post near as much), I don't know.
Gary Childress
Posts: 8117
Joined: Sun Sep 25, 2011 3:08 pm
Location: Retirement Home for foolosophers

Re: How much can a person change about themselves?

Post by Gary Childress »

Lacewing wrote: Thu Jan 28, 2021 11:12 pm
Gary Childress wrote: Thu Jan 28, 2021 4:05 pm I get kind of angry and frustrated at times talking with people on the Internet. I know I shouldn't but there seems to be something inside my mind that propels me in that direction. It's not like I can just flip a switch and turn off anger or frustration and not be angry or frustrated anymore. Some of the time I just walk away and sulk in the proverbial corner but I still feel irritated while I'm away. I suppose I could go to an anger management class or something, but if they're anything like other kinds of therapy sessions I've been to, then I wonder how much they will really help me.

What are some ways that others here handle anger? Do you get angry or frustrated sometimes talking to people on the Internet too? If not, is it something that just doesn't come to your mind or do you somehow diffuse it in some way (and if so, how)?
It's an interesting question.

My guess is that it is easier for people to change or choose differently when they realize/discover the other options/characteristics available. Then their path can be more mindfully chosen. Whereas, if a person thinks they have no choice -- if they think a certain response is inevitable -- they will not see/practice otherwise. This is not about blaming ourselves... it's about seeing broader potential within and for ourselves.

I also think it's helpful to have a sense of humor and a lot of love and gratitude (as we might if we were watching children act out on a stage). We tend to take too many things seriously on the stage of life. If we can step back from the stage and observe more of the show... or step back even further and observe more of the stage that the show is on... then the individual scenes and scripts don't mean as much compared to the larger view. When we practice seeing the stage and ourselves (on it) with more humor and love, we can practice becoming more skilled in having fun with it.
Well, I know I have a choice in how to react but I don't seem to have a choice over emotions. My emotions seem to come to me without choosing them. I can choose how to react to an emotion unless I have a knee-jerk reaction but for the most part I don't choose to be angry or frustrated. If I could choose emotions I'd just choose joy or something like that all the time. I have never really gotten into "mindfulness" or meditation. I'm too self-conscious about such things (like hypnosis doesn't usually work for me either). My usual method for dealing with anger seems to be when I talk my way through it in my internal dialogue. Also, I'll talk to myself when I'm alone (and hope God is listening or something) to sort of mollify my emotions a bit that way. In other words, I try to reason my way through such things. but it's difficult sometimes.
Gary Childress
Posts: 8117
Joined: Sun Sep 25, 2011 3:08 pm
Location: Retirement Home for foolosophers

Re: How much can a person change about themselves?

Post by Gary Childress »

Terrapin Station wrote: Fri Jan 29, 2021 12:39 am I've definitely gotten frustrated talking to people online, as there are so many people interacting who are knowledgeable and educated in some ways, but utter imbeciles in many other ways while also being extremely arrogant/having really a-holish attitudes. Social interaction sites also seem to attract a lot of people with psychological issues--people who are socially maladjusted to completely socially dysfunctional. And often enough you run into someone for whom it's difficult to believe they're not institutionalized. Way too many people come across more or less like Gene Ray, the "Time Cube" guy. There are a ton of "agenda kooks."

I've finally decided to simply start (functionally) ignoring the Gene Rays. Whether that will leave anyone to talk to (as folks who don't have those issues tend to not post near as much), I don't know.
I definitely need to work on just walking away from frustrating situations or discussions online. It sounds like a good tactic, though.
Advocate
Posts: 3470
Joined: Tue Sep 12, 2017 9:27 am
Contact:

Re: How much can a person change about themselves?

Post by Advocate »

Just about anything if you can manage to grab ahold of your attention at will.
Skepdick
Posts: 14365
Joined: Fri Jun 14, 2019 11:16 am

Re: How much can a person change about themselves?

Post by Skepdick »

Gary Childress wrote: Thu Jan 28, 2021 4:05 pm What are some ways that others here handle anger? Do you get angry or frustrated sometimes talking to people on the Internet too? If not, is it something that just doesn't come to your mind or do you somehow diffuse it in some way (and if so, how)?
Lower your expectations. You get angry because you expect/want a different outcome from the interaction.

People are obtuse. Philosophers - especially so. It's by design: Kobayashi Maru.

It's not at all representative of healthy and respectful human interaction.
Gary Childress
Posts: 8117
Joined: Sun Sep 25, 2011 3:08 pm
Location: Retirement Home for foolosophers

Re: How much can a person change about themselves?

Post by Gary Childress »

Skepdick wrote: Fri Jan 29, 2021 10:19 am
Gary Childress wrote: Thu Jan 28, 2021 4:05 pm What are some ways that others here handle anger? Do you get angry or frustrated sometimes talking to people on the Internet too? If not, is it something that just doesn't come to your mind or do you somehow diffuse it in some way (and if so, how)?
Lower your expectations. You get angry because you expect/want a different outcome from the interaction.

People are obtuse. Philosophers - especially so. It's by design: Kobayashi Maru.

It's not at all representative of healthy and respectful human interaction.
What do you mean by it being by design? Do you mean God designed it that way or some other entity running things (DNA for example)?
Skepdick
Posts: 14365
Joined: Fri Jun 14, 2019 11:16 am

Re: How much can a person change about themselves?

Post by Skepdick »

Gary Childress wrote: Fri Jan 29, 2021 12:50 pm What do you mean by it being by design? Do you mean God designed it that way or some other entity running things (DNA for example)?
Philosophers designed it that way.

Deliberately. To keep the discussion open. To prevent conclusive answers.

Communication prevents tribalism.
Gary Childress
Posts: 8117
Joined: Sun Sep 25, 2011 3:08 pm
Location: Retirement Home for foolosophers

Re: How much can a person change about themselves?

Post by Gary Childress »

Skepdick wrote: Fri Jan 29, 2021 3:40 pm
Gary Childress wrote: Fri Jan 29, 2021 12:50 pm What do you mean by it being by design? Do you mean God designed it that way or some other entity running things (DNA for example)?
Philosophers designed it that way.

Deliberately. To keep the discussion open. To prevent conclusive answers.

Communication prevents tribalism.
Hmm. I always thought that philosophers don't try to be confusing or have disagreements, that they have confusions and disagreements because that's the way it really is for us mere mortals. Otherwise, they would gladly welcome consensus or certainty if they could attain it.
Skepdick
Posts: 14365
Joined: Fri Jun 14, 2019 11:16 am

Re: How much can a person change about themselves?

Post by Skepdick »

Gary Childress wrote: Fri Jan 29, 2021 5:10 pm Hmm. I always thought that philosophers don't try to be confusing or have disagreements, that they have confusions and disagreements because that's the way it really is for us mere mortals. Otherwise, they would gladly welcome consensus or certainty if they could attain it.
Consensus is ALWAYS possible. If the interlocutors want it there is an algorithm for it. There is an exact "language game" that can be played to arrive at agreement.

The empirical presence of continued lack of consensus suggests either ignorance of the theorem; refusal to or incompetence at practicing it. Or Occam's razor: they don't want consensus.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aumann's_ ... nt_theorem
Gary Childress
Posts: 8117
Joined: Sun Sep 25, 2011 3:08 pm
Location: Retirement Home for foolosophers

Re: How much can a person change about themselves?

Post by Gary Childress »

Skepdick wrote: Fri Jan 29, 2021 5:21 pm
Gary Childress wrote: Fri Jan 29, 2021 5:10 pm Hmm. I always thought that philosophers don't try to be confusing or have disagreements, that they have confusions and disagreements because that's the way it really is for us mere mortals. Otherwise, they would gladly welcome consensus or certainty if they could attain it.
Consensus is ALWAYS possible. If the interlocutors want it there is an algorithm for it. There is an exact "language game" that can be played to arrive at agreement.

The empirical presence of continued lack of consensus suggests either ignorance of the theorem; refusal to or incompetence at practicing it. Or Occam's razor: they don't want consensus.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aumann's_ ... nt_theorem
Regarding not wanting consensus, I think it's probably true that some people play devil's advocate or disagree just to toy with others but I don't think doing it to toy with others is something someone typically practices with good faith. For the majority of people, especially intellectuals and thinkers, I think they are trying to find solid answers rather than deliberately create dissonance and discord. But I may just as easily be wrong. I don't know for sure.
Post Reply