Is Emptiness Actually Depression?

Can philosophers help resolve the real problems that people have in their lives?

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Arising_uk
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Re: Is Emptiness Actually Depression?

Post by Arising_uk » Mon Apr 27, 2015 1:40 am

If what you say is true how could you know this?

You are displacing to justify your refusal to do the thing you wish and what you wish is to have your faith back. Take heart and embrace your faith in the way you wish, it is not true that you have to be a catholic to be a christian and to be a christian it is only necessary to read and follow the teachings of Jesus Christ and most importantly of all to pray in the way that was laid down, so the Lord's Prayer and in solitude. Stop your slothful ways and re-read Ouspensky if needs be as you have strayed far from the path and it is making you unhappy and confused.

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Re: Is Emptiness Actually Depression?

Post by artisticsolution » Mon Apr 27, 2015 2:07 pm

What path?

Your advice is good Arising, but it's not comforting. I think that Bill needs comfort now.

What you are basically advising is a distraction of sorts. Yes, distraction may work to forget one's angst, but instead of focusing energy on religion, why not focus it on being kind to others? (I am talking about Bill not you, as I think your last post was very kind but impossible to achieve.) I just feel it is more honest than pretending there is a God. Not to mention, the "God there for me" thing, is not good for a narcissist, I think. At best it is a band aid and at worst it makes them feel even more superior. Still, it is all a ruse anyway and eventually, the existential angst will take over if the person is of above average intelligence because there is no escape from one's own mind.

So, I think there comes a point where one can no longer use religion as a source of comfort because the inner nagging just won't shut the fuck up.

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Bill Wiltrack
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Re: Is Emptiness Actually Depression?

Post by Bill Wiltrack » Mon Apr 27, 2015 9:58 pm

.


You are correct. I cannot use religion as a comfort or an escape. I'm passed that. Waaaay past that.

The philosopher Ouspensky defines an esoteric system of Christianity.



I actually work at being a nice person. Being kind.


There is an emptiness that I can almost physically feel. The emptiness is with me in every waking moment lately.

A sadness. Just pain that another moment, another day is passing by...

It is a strange time for me. Nothing I share here can actually describe the discomfort. The despair.






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Dalek Prime
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Re: Is Emptiness Actually Depression?

Post by Dalek Prime » Tue Apr 28, 2015 7:05 am

As I said, I can't prescribe for you Bill. But what helps me is recognizing the insignificance of my life in terms of the cosmos as they unfold. And just on this tiny speck of a planet, in this tiny speck of a galaxy in the vast cosmos, there have been around 100 billion of people like me, who suffered the same feelings we understand. All our ancestors that brought us to this point in time, that are now at peace. And we will be, too. And when we are gone, there will be more, perhaps on this very forum, discussing their fears...

Anyways, this thought gives me comfort. My apologies for the ramble, but I wanted to voice it.

And btw, you attempts at kindness are noticed. You're an okay bloke when you want to be.

Cheers, Bill. Be well.

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Arising_uk
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Re: Is Emptiness Actually Depression?

Post by Arising_uk » Tue Apr 28, 2015 11:20 pm

artisticsolution wrote:What path?
Back to a version of the faith he once had. As everything Bill has done since losing his faith in Catholicism appears to be aimed at regaining faith.
Your advice is good Arising, but it's not comforting. I think that Bill needs comfort now.
To be honest, boo hoo! As in the main Bill's problems are the result of his 'philosophy'.
What you are basically advising is a distraction of sorts. ...
No, what I advise is for him to seek professional help or to read some philosophy, barring that a return to his faith or at least a version of it as he's never really gone away from it. At the very least to find a job to occupy himself rather than incessantly trawl the weeb as I think tbieter has a point about sloth.
Yes, distraction may work to forget one's angst, but instead of focusing energy on religion, why not focus it on being kind to others? (I am talking about Bill not you, as I think your last post was very kind but impossible to achieve.) I just feel it is more honest than pretending there is a God. Not to mention, the "God there for me" thing, is not good for a narcissist, I think. At best it is a band aid and at worst it makes them feel even more superior. Still, it is all a ruse anyway and eventually, the existential angst will take over if the person is of above average intelligence because there is no escape from one's own mind.
All I saying is that what he is doing appears not to be working and what he has been doing is searching for a replacement faith, so he should either give-up that fruitless task or return to what made him secure.
So, I think there comes a point where one can no longer use religion as a source of comfort because the inner nagging just won't shut the fuck up.
For sure but when you give-up a religion, especially Catholicism, one should consider how deep their clutches go and not carry that baggage around with you.

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Arising_uk
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Re: Is Emptiness Actually Depression?

Post by Arising_uk » Tue Apr 28, 2015 11:30 pm

Bill Wiltrack wrote:.


You are correct. I cannot use religion as a comfort or an escape. I'm passed that. Waaaay past that.
Not really, as you haven't left the need for a faith.
The philosopher Ouspensky defines an esoteric system of Christianity.
He does and says its only for the special few. now given the results you've so far achieved don't you think it time to consider you're not one of them?
I actually work at being a nice person. Being kind.
If you need to work at it then you are basically an unkind person, so why not just embrace yourself?
There is an emptiness that I can almost physically feel. The emptiness is with me in every waking moment lately.

A sadness. Just pain that another moment, another day is passing by...

It is a strange time for me. Nothing I share here can actually describe the discomfort. The despair. [/size].
At a guess it sounds like you are having a late mid-life crisis where mortality weighs heavily upon you and is exacerbated by being childless. Seek professional help if you think you actually have a problem. If not then it's the result of your 'philosophy' so try reading some actual philosophy or return to some version of your faith or just suck-it up and shut up about it. Maybe take tbieters advice that your condition is due to sloth and go find some gainful employment.
p.s.
Or maybe just maybe your subconscious has been trying to tell you something and its time to question that knocking on the door?

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Re: Is Emptiness Actually Depression?

Post by Wyman » Wed Apr 29, 2015 1:23 am

Dalek Prime wrote:As I said, I can't prescribe for you Bill. But what helps me is recognizing the insignificance of my life in terms of the cosmos as they unfold. And just on this tiny speck of a planet, in this tiny speck of a galaxy in the vast cosmos, there have been around 100 billion of people like me, who suffered the same feelings we understand. All our ancestors that brought us to this point in time, that are now at peace. And we will be, too. And when we are gone, there will be more, perhaps on this very forum, discussing their fears...

Anyways, this thought gives me comfort. My apologies for the ramble, but I wanted to voice it.

And btw, you attempts at kindness are noticed. You're an okay bloke when you want to be.

Cheers, Bill. Be well.
Funny, recognizing the insignificance of my life has exactly the opposite effect on me.

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Re: Is Emptiness Actually Depression?

Post by Bill Wiltrack » Wed Apr 29, 2015 1:52 am

.


Yeah. When I was young being nothing...being detached was my noblest and highest high I could achieve.

Now that I am an old man - it's just the opposite. I can't describe the mixed emotions but all of them are unsettling.

Odd.



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Dalek Prime
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Re: Is Emptiness Actually Depression?

Post by Dalek Prime » Wed Apr 29, 2015 2:31 am

I think its the vastness that puts my troubles, and those of mankind, in perspective. Makes them seem small. That's all I'm saying. Nothing noble about it.

Btw Bill, do you have access to Philosophy Now articles. I'd be curious if you've read The Last Messiah. I'd like to know your thoughts on it, if only to get a clearer picture about where you are, philosophically. It's an interesting perspective, nontheless.
Last edited by Dalek Prime on Wed Apr 29, 2015 2:47 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Bill Wiltrack
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Re: Is Emptiness Actually Depression?

Post by Bill Wiltrack » Wed Apr 29, 2015 2:46 am

.


No. Haven't seen it.


Could you copy & paste?




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Re: Is Emptiness Actually Depression?

Post by artisticsolution » Wed Apr 29, 2015 5:06 am

A:No, what I advise is for him to seek professional help or to read some philosophy, barring that a return to his faith or at least a version of it as he's never really gone away from it. At the very least to find a job to occupy himself rather than incessantly trawl the weeb as I think tbieter has a point about sloth.

AS: Right, all of those are distractions...a way to while away the hours until death. What Bill has is the blues from not having enough quality distractions. He is thinking too much...he needs the comfort of a distraction that makes him feel he is doing something worthwhile with his life.

A:All I saying is that what he is doing appears not to be working and what he has been doing is searching for a replacement faith, so he should either give-up that fruitless task or return to what made him secure.

AS: Hmmm...I don't know if that's possible Arising. Remember when we had that chat and I told you I saw a big difference between myself and my sis (who were raised with a strict Christian upbringing) and my kids (who were not raised with any particular religious belief)? That I found they rarely had nightmares while my sis and I had them all the time plus we are still battling daytime anxiety (her more than me because she is still a devout Christian) !

Well, I don't think you realize how much of an impact religion has on a human being, esp if they are raised from birth to believe. It is abuse, pure and simple, and even though one tries to forget...one never can...totally. And if believers and past believers are honest with ourselves, the fear never stops completely, even though we may put on a false bravado, and deny we have a problem, or forget once in a while and insist we are happy and well adjusted, there it is...rearing it's ugly head when we are alone with our thoughts.

I don't think some who was not brought up with religion can relate. Sometimes, when I hear an atheist's anger against religious people I am taken aback. I don't think they realize that this is akin to post traumatic stress disorder...only worse because the trauma was there from day one of our lives not something that happened to us as adults. The odd thing to me is, I would be shocked if that many atheists would be so angry at someone who happened to have adult onset post traumatic stress disorder. I think they would be more understanding.

Just trying to put it into perspective. It just seems like an odd "blame the victim" mentality.

A:For sure but when you give-up a religion, especially Catholicism, one should consider how deep their clutches go and not carry that baggage around with you.

AS: But what if that is impossible? From Birth, Arising...

"Most people live dejectedly in worldly sorrow and joy; they are the ones who sit along the wall and do not join in the dance. The knights of infinity are dancers and possess elevation. They make the movements upward, and fall down again; and this too is no mean pastime, nor ungraceful to behold. But whenever they fall down they are not able at once to assume the posture, they vacillate an instant, and this vacillation shows that after all they are strangers in the world. This is more or less strikingly evident in proportion to the art they possess, but even the most artistic knights cannot altogether conceal this vacillation. One need not look at them when they are up in the air, but only the instant they touch or have touched the ground–then one recognizes them. But to be able to fall down in such a way that the same second it looks as if one were standing and walking, to transform the leap of life into a walk, absolutely to express the sublime in the pedestrian–that only the knight of faith can do–and this is the one and only prodigy.

Johannes de Silentio

Kierkegaard"

The above is the best way I can describe the feeling....the only one who was a true knight of faith was Abraham, and do you think any Christian for a moment could understand him? (Meaning understand someone who was so honest that he did not vacillate in his belief even when facing the absurd) We* are all sitting along that wall, finding comfort in something...and thinking we can dance...until we vacillate, and when we do...we know we are not who we think we are...we are like impostors, liars...thinking and believing we matter when we don't. Thinking our lives mean something when they don't. So the only thing I can come up with that helps me is finding comfort in the fact that I will die...and that hopefully I will cease to exist cause for the life of me...God or no God, I can't imagine how horrifying the alternative would be...

*by "we" I mean christian and ex christains from birth

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Re: Is Emptiness Actually Depression?

Post by Bill Wiltrack » Wed Apr 29, 2015 10:58 am

.



Thank you artisticsolution for your thoughtful and empathetic post.

The last paragraph is especially dynamic for me.


All the best to you.






.

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Re: Is Emptiness Actually Depression?

Post by felixh » Fri May 01, 2015 11:08 am

Yes, I would agree. Normally I would say "real" emptiness is not depression as it frees you up and let's you think better, whereas depression often has a "pressure" to it. But this kind of emptiness is a good representation of depression which is also about being stuck and finding no way out, and slowly growing numb or disintegrating, and having no imagination. I don't think that it necessarily is depression itself, but that it cannot stand on its own without being depression, and that it usually stands on its own, and even can tell give you a very persuasive illusion "that it's all there is".

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Re: Is Emptiness Actually Depression?

Post by tbieter » Sat May 02, 2015 5:10 pm

artisticsolution wrote:A:No, what I advise is for him to seek professional help or to read some philosophy, barring that a return to his faith or at least a version of it as he's never really gone away from it. At the very least to find a job to occupy himself rather than incessantly trawl the weeb as I think tbieter has a point about sloth. [BIETER'S ORIGINAL POST on sloth is on page 5 above]

AS: Right, all of those are distractions...a way to while away the hours until death. What Bill has is the blues from not having enough quality distractions. He is thinking too much...he needs the comfort of a distraction that makes him feel he is doing something worthwhile with his life.

A:All I saying is that what he is doing appears not to be working and what he has been doing is searching for a replacement faith, so he should either give-up that fruitless task or return to what made him secure.

AS: Hmmm...I don't know if that's possible Arising. Remember when we had that chat and I told you I saw a big difference between myself and my sis (who were raised with a strict Christian upbringing) and my kids (who were not raised with any particular religious belief)? That I found they rarely had nightmares while my sis and I had them all the time plus we are still battling daytime anxiety (her more than me because she is still a devout Christian) !

Well, I don't think you realize how much of an impact religion has on a human being, esp if they are raised from birth to believe. It is abuse, pure and simple, and even though one tries to forget...one never can...totally. And if believers and past believers are honest with ourselves, the fear never stops completely, even though we may put on a false bravado, and deny we have a problem, or forget once in a while and insist we are happy and well adjusted, there it is...rearing it's ugly head when we are alone with our thoughts.

I don't think some who was not brought up with religion can relate. Sometimes, when I hear an atheist's anger against religious people I am taken aback. I don't think they realize that this is akin to post traumatic stress disorder...only worse because the trauma was there from day one of our lives not something that happened to us as adults. The odd thing to me is, I would be shocked if that many atheists would be so angry at someone who happened to have adult onset post traumatic stress disorder. I think they would be more understanding.

Just trying to put it into perspective. It just seems like an odd "blame the victim" mentality.

A:For sure but when you give-up a religion, especially Catholicism, one should consider how deep their clutches go and not carry that baggage around with you.

AS: But what if that is impossible? From Birth, Arising...

"Most people live dejectedly in worldly sorrow and joy; they are the ones who sit along the wall and do not join in the dance. The knights of infinity are dancers and possess elevation. They make the movements upward, and fall down again; and this too is no mean pastime, nor ungraceful to behold. But whenever they fall down they are not able at once to assume the posture, they vacillate an instant, and this vacillation shows that after all they are strangers in the world. This is more or less strikingly evident in proportion to the art they possess, but even the most artistic knights cannot altogether conceal this vacillation. One need not look at them when they are up in the air, but only the instant they touch or have touched the ground–then one recognizes them. But to be able to fall down in such a way that the same second it looks as if one were standing and walking, to transform the leap of life into a walk, absolutely to express the sublime in the pedestrian–that only the knight of faith can do–and this is the one and only prodigy.

Johannes de Silentio

Kierkegaard"

"The above is the best way I can describe the feeling....the only one who was a true knight of faith was Abraham, and do you think any Christian for a moment could understand him? (Meaning understand someone who was so honest that he did not vacillate in his belief even when facing the absurd) We* are all sitting along that wall, finding comfort in something...and thinking we can dance...until we vacillate, and when we do...we know we are not who we think we are...we are like impostors, liars...thinking and believing we matter when we don't. Thinking our lives mean something when they don't. So the only thing I can come up with that helps me is finding comfort in the fact that I will die...and that hopefully I will cease to exist cause for the life of me...God or no God, I can't imagine how horrifying the alternative would be...

*by "we" I mean christian and ex christains from birth
I happened upon the following book in pursuing my project regarding WORK. I contest an author's contention THAT WORK IS THE MEANING OF ONE'S LIFE. I'm going to get and read the following book because, being retired, I too, like Bill perhaps, sometimes have the feeling of being worthless because I feel useless.
"The noonday devil is the demon of acedia, the vice also known as sloth. The word “sloth”, however, can be misleading, for acedia is not laziness; in fact it can manifest as busyness or activism. Rather, acedia is a gloomy combination of weariness, sadness, and a lack of purposefulness. It robs a person of his capacity for joy and leaves him feeling empty, or void of meaning

Abbot Nault says that acedia is the most oppressive of demons. Although its name harkens back to antiquity and the Middle Ages, and seems to have been largely forgotten, acedia is experienced by countless modern people who describe their condition as depression, melancholy, burn-out, or even mid-life crisis.

He begins his study of acedia by tracing the wisdom of the Church on the subject from the Desert Fathers to Saint Thomas Aquinas. He shows how acedia afflicts persons in all states of life— priests, religious, and married or single laymen. He details not only the symptoms and effects of acedia, but also remedies for it."
http://www.amazon.com/The-Noonday-Devil ... 09FZXGBTKE

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