Oppositional Defiance Disorder

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Gary Childress
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Oppositional Defiance Disorder

Post by Gary Childress »

Here are the symptoms in children:

https://psychcentral.com/disorders/oppo ... -symptoms/

Apparently it can drag into adulthood too:

https://www.additudemag.com/screener-op ... st-adults/ (My favorite from the symptom questionnaire: "I can’t stand authority figures. Fight the power!")

I wonder, is there a line between being fiercely independent minded and having "defiance disorder"? I also wonder if any of the great thinkers in history would fall into this category; Galileo, for example? What about Anarchist, Noam Chomsky?
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Kayla
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Re: Oppositional Defiance Disorder

Post by Kayla »

A fiercely independent child might ignore their parents telling them that laying Dungeons & Dragons is evil. But if their parents ask them not to leave their D&D books on the kitchen counter (cause its needed for cooking) they will move the books elsewhere.

but a child will oppositional defiance disorder will be like "Fuck you! Don't tell me where to leave my books.
Gary Childress
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Re: Oppositional Defiance Disorder

Post by Gary Childress »

Kayla wrote: Thu Oct 01, 2020 9:48 pm A fiercely independent child might ignore their parents telling them that laying Dungeons & Dragons is evil. But if their parents ask them not to leave their D&D books on the kitchen counter (cause its needed for cooking) they will move the books elsewhere.

but a child will oppositional defiance disorder will be like "Fuck you! Don't tell me where to leave my books.
I see. Good points.
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Immanuel Can
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Re: Oppositional Defiance Disorder

Post by Immanuel Can »

Gary Childress wrote: Tue Sep 22, 2020 1:50 am Here are the symptoms in children:

https://psychcentral.com/disorders/oppo ... -symptoms/

Apparently it can drag into adulthood too:

https://www.additudemag.com/screener-op ... st-adults/ (My favorite from the symptom questionnaire: "I can’t stand authority figures. Fight the power!")

I wonder, is there a line between being fiercely independent minded and having "defiance disorder"? I also wonder if any of the great thinkers in history would fall into this category; Galileo, for example? What about Anarchist, Noam Chomsky?
Hi, Gary.

I have met people who have been clinically diagnosed with this condition, and have, in fact, dealt with them for decades. For a long time, such people went undiagnosed, but now they are being clinically identified. As with all clinical diagnoses, there is some grey area. Some folks may have an authentic Oppositional Defiant Disorder condition (or "ODD") but others are just really cranky and rebellious.

Galileo was a guy who went around picking fights, for sure. So, obviously, is Noam Chomsky. But did they have a clinical disorder? Who can tell? It's possible, but by no means certain.

What is clear, though, is that whether for clinical or for personal reasons, some folks are unreasoningly rebellious. They lash out against authorities they do not need to be in conflict with, and create problems where none existed. So I suppose the most important thing is to know the difference. Unfortunately, since the '60s, essentially, people have tended to view "rebelliousness" as a sign of free-thinking and courage. It's been valorized beyond all reason, and has made "saints" of some obstreperous fools. The virtue of peacemaking, or of finding ways to direct authority into positive uses has been increasingly downplayed.

One good recent example would be the BLM riots. They are a terrific example of unfocused, purposeless, destructive rebellion. How setting a Foot Locker or church on fire conduces to the end of racism is surely obscure to everyone -- especially the rioters themselves. And it has produced no freedom or improvement of anything at all. Yet there are those who praise those riots as some sort of "protest." That's very ODD. It's opposition without focus, without purpose, without endgame. It's knee-jerk rebellion, rebellion from the gut and with no brain.

Behind them are different types, though: the Neo-Marxists. They know exactly why they are fomenting the riots. They believe, with Marx, that destruction itself is creative, because it leads to the triumph of the oppressed and to the ideal society; that the prerequisite to them getting into power is the destruction of the "oppressive" status quo. They don't have a personal, emotional stake in the riots at all; their stake is ideological and deliberate. They are not ODD...they are calculating and malevolent, and very focused on the purpose of obtaining power.

So who has joined that cause out of malevolence, who is well-intended by misguided, and who is ODD? Who really knows, since they all act out the same things?
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Re: Oppositional Defiance Disorder

Post by Advocate »

[quote="Gary Childress" post_id=472700 time=1600735826 user_id=6477]
Here are the symptoms in children:

https://psychcentral.com/disorders/oppo ... -symptoms/

Apparently it can drag into adulthood too:

https://www.additudemag.com/screener-op ... st-adults/ (My favorite from the symptom questionnaire: [b]"I can’t stand authority figures. Fight the power!"[/b])

I wonder, is there a line between being fiercely independent minded and having "defiance disorder"? I also wonder if any of the great thinkers in history would fall into this category; Galileo, for example? What about Anarchist, Noam Chomsky?
[/quote]

I believe this is an epistemological issue, not a psychological problem. Anyone who experiences authority figures being wrong has the potential to begin to deny the edicts of authority, and at some point that requires dismissing the very idea of authority. It is easy to find epistemological warrant that not listening to anyone is valid, or likewise that arrogantly dismissing anything that doesn't conform to reason (as you see it) is appropriate. If one values freedom or self-determination, this automatically leads to distrust of anything stated "authoritatively" without a solid supporting argument. Defiance is a disorder if it goes too far, but it's called a disorder long before that because compliance is the foundation of society.
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Immanuel Can
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Re: Oppositional Defiance Disorder

Post by Immanuel Can »

Gary Childress wrote: Tue Sep 22, 2020 1:50 am I wonder, is there a line between being fiercely independent minded and having "defiance disorder"? I also wonder if any of the great thinkers in history would fall into this category; Galileo, for example? What about Anarchist, Noam Chomsky?
Hi, Gary.

Usually the line is officially considered to be when the "defiance" becomes irrational and compulsive, failing to accord with reasonable circumstances in any way. That's why ODD is highly correlated with criminality, too: it's when the "defiance" is highly irrational, antisocial and is often driven by impulses that even the ODD person doesn't really understand. That's when it's identifiable as really pathological, and not merely "prickly character."

But yeah, there are probably historically quite a few undiagnosed cases of it, because it's only recently entered the literature.
promethean75
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Re: Oppositional Defiance Disorder

Post by promethean75 »

"Behind them are different types, though: the Neo-Marxists. They know exactly why they are fomenting the riots. They believe, with Marx, that destruction itself is creative, because it leads to the triumph of the oppressed and to the ideal society; that the prerequisite to them getting into power is the destruction of the "oppressive" status quo."

You'd not find Karl 'the beard' Marx condoning such wanton violence, in fact. That's something the anarchists get all giddy about, and Marx wasn't an anarchist. Rather he called for highly organized worker rebellion and revolution if even on a military scale. He was not about destroying anything, really, but instead a transfer of power into the hands of the proletariat... by force if necessary. If you axed The Beard what he thought about the riots mentioned here, he'd either laugh, thump you in the head, or laugh and thump you in the head, while muttering with a smug and self-satisfied tone 'hey dipshit, didn't I tell you this was gonna happen?'

Now these clowns today who call themselves neo-marxists are another thing altogether. Democratic socialists who still endorse free market capitalism and know squat about orthodox Marxism. A good three quarters of em are angry black folks who think they're academic celebrities because they get five minutes of air time on CNN to ramble and complain about nothing substantial with a little help from God.

The Beard prolly saw this coming, too. Guy was like a fuckin oracle.
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Re: Oppositional Defiance Disorder

Post by Veganman »

ODD usually starts in childhood, mainly by parents being inconsistent with the upbringing of the child. It tends to be on a spectrum and if it persists into the teenage years it becomes conduct disorder. Many children with ADHD have a dual diagnosis of either ODD/ADHD or conduct disorder/ADHD. Usually, ODD and conduct disorder are behavioural problems. However, if they persist into adulthood a diagnosis of Antisocial Personality Disorder can sometimes be given, perhaps even psychopathy. In which case, the initial disorder turns out to be more than just behavioural.
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Re: Oppositional Defiance Disorder

Post by Age »

Immanuel Can wrote: Fri Oct 02, 2020 1:54 pm
Gary Childress wrote: Tue Sep 22, 2020 1:50 am Here are the symptoms in children:

https://psychcentral.com/disorders/oppo ... -symptoms/

Apparently it can drag into adulthood too:

https://www.additudemag.com/screener-op ... st-adults/ (My favorite from the symptom questionnaire: "I can’t stand authority figures. Fight the power!")

I wonder, is there a line between being fiercely independent minded and having "defiance disorder"? I also wonder if any of the great thinkers in history would fall into this category; Galileo, for example? What about Anarchist, Noam Chomsky?
Hi, Gary.

I have met people who have been clinically diagnosed with this condition, and have, in fact, dealt with them for decades. For a long time, such people went undiagnosed, but now they are being clinically identified. As with all clinical diagnoses, there is some grey area. Some folks may have an authentic Oppositional Defiant Disorder condition (or "ODD") but others are just really cranky and rebellious.

Galileo was a guy who went around picking fights, for sure. So, obviously, is Noam Chomsky. But did they have a clinical disorder? Who can tell? It's possible, but by no means certain.

What is clear, though, is that whether for clinical or for personal reasons, some folks are unreasoningly rebellious. They lash out against authorities they do not need to be in conflict with, and create problems where none existed. So I suppose the most important thing is to know the difference. Unfortunately, since the '60s, essentially, people have tended to view "rebelliousness" as a sign of free-thinking and courage. It's been valorized beyond all reason, and has made "saints" of some obstreperous fools. The virtue of peacemaking, or of finding ways to direct authority into positive uses has been increasingly downplayed.

One good recent example would be the BLM riots. They are a terrific example of unfocused, purposeless, destructive rebellion. How setting a Foot Locker or church on fire conduces to the end of racism is surely obscure to everyone -- especially the rioters themselves. And it has produced no freedom or improvement of anything at all. Yet there are those who praise those riots as some sort of "protest." That's very ODD. It's opposition without focus, without purpose, without endgame. It's knee-jerk rebellion, rebellion from the gut and with no brain.
If there were NOT 'judgmental', 'ridiculing', ABUSING, and 'punishing' AUTHORITIES like the "christian" or "church" adult people, then there would be ABSOLUTELY NOTHING AT ALL to 'rebel against.

The reason people end up 'REBELLING' like they do is because of the ABUSE ALL 'authorities', ('you', adult human beings,) perpetrate on children.

Nothing could be MORE OBVIOUS. If 'you', adult human beings, did NOT ABUSE "others", then there would be ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to REBEL AGAINST.
Immanuel Can wrote: Fri Oct 02, 2020 1:54 pm Behind them are different types, though: the Neo-Marxists. They know exactly why they are fomenting the riots. They believe, with Marx, that destruction itself is creative, because it leads to the triumph of the oppressed and to the ideal society; that the prerequisite to them getting into power is the destruction of the "oppressive" status quo.
Here is ANOTHER GREAT EXAMPLE of just how RACIST and JUDGMENTAL this one REALLY IS.

Also, if the "church" abuses one as a child, then there is a PERFECTLY REASONABLE REASON to DESTROY that "church".

And, DESTRUCTION of that kind of "church" and 'authority' NEEDS to OCCUR.

If a group, or society, of people, for example, went and killed, captured, or enslaved another group, or society, of peoples, then the former group, and society, NEED to be BROUGHT DOWN, to Right the Wrong that they did. Or, do you KNOW of a BETTER WAY?

Because you are so BLINDED by your OWN views and BELIEFS here "immanuel can", you are IN COMPLETE DENIAL, and so FAIL COMPLETELY from being ABLE to SEE from the "other's" perspective, especially when LOOKING AT and INTO issues like this one here.

And, what is Truly HILARIOUS while OBSERVING your words here is wondering if 'you' would be the first to lay down and comply with ALL orders given to 'you', including crawling into the gas chamber, or if 'you' would be the first to contemplate and devise a plan on how to REBEL AGAINST, and BRING DOWN and DESTROY, the 'authority establishment'.
Immanuel Can wrote: Fri Oct 02, 2020 1:54 pm They don't have a personal, emotional stake in the riots at all; their stake is ideological and deliberate. They are not ODD...they are calculating and malevolent, and very focused on the purpose of obtaining power.
This is one way, and ANOTHER EXAMPLE, of QUICKLY USING a topic of discussion to EXPRESS, REVEAL, and SHOW one's OWN prejudices, racist, AND judgmental views and BELIEFS
Immanuel Can wrote: Fri Oct 02, 2020 1:54 pm So who has joined that cause out of malevolence, who is well-intended by misguided, and who is ODD? Who really knows, since they all act out the same things?
When people are being 'authority figures' OVER "others", then those who BELIEVE that they have the 'authority' OVER "another" NEED to be, literally, BROUGHT DOWN, and brought back down to earth', as some would suggest.

People are "themselves". They do NOT 'need' "others" to TELL "them" what to do NOR what to think.

There is ONLY One Truth 'Authority' of EVER one, and that One is WITHIN EVERY one.
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Re: Oppositional Defiance Disorder

Post by Age »

Immanuel Can wrote: Fri Nov 06, 2020 6:24 pm
Gary Childress wrote: Tue Sep 22, 2020 1:50 am I wonder, is there a line between being fiercely independent minded and having "defiance disorder"? I also wonder if any of the great thinkers in history would fall into this category; Galileo, for example? What about Anarchist, Noam Chomsky?
Hi, Gary.

Usually the line is officially considered to be when the "defiance" becomes irrational and compulsive, failing to accord with reasonable circumstances in any way. That's why ODD is highly correlated with criminality, too: it's when the "defiance" is highly irrational, antisocial and is often driven by impulses that even the ODD person doesn't really understand. That's when it's identifiable as really pathological, and not merely "prickly character."

But yeah, there are probably historically quite a few undiagnosed cases of it, because it's only recently entered the literature.
'Defying' to enter the gas chamber is, to the "authority", so-called "highly irrational" and/or "antisocial", and so 'deserves' PUNISHMENT. "Do as I say, or you WILL BE PUNISHED" is the process of ALL "authoritarianism".

"BELIEVE what I say and TELL you, or God WILL PUNISH YOU", says the "church" to the "church goers". They even USE the "JUDGING" word to ENFORCE their "authority".
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Re: Oppositional Defiance Disorder

Post by Age »

promethean75 wrote: Fri Jan 21, 2022 10:34 pm "Behind them are different types, though: the Neo-Marxists. They know exactly why they are fomenting the riots. They believe, with Marx, that destruction itself is creative, because it leads to the triumph of the oppressed and to the ideal society; that the prerequisite to them getting into power is the destruction of the "oppressive" status quo."

You'd not find Karl 'the beard' Marx condoning such wanton violence, in fact. That's something the anarchists get all giddy about, and Marx wasn't an anarchist. Rather he called for highly organized worker rebellion and revolution if even on a military scale. He was not about destroying anything, really, but instead a transfer of power into the hands of the proletariat... by force if necessary. If you axed The Beard what he thought about the riots mentioned here, he'd either laugh, thump you in the head, or laugh and thump you in the head, while muttering with a smug and self-satisfied tone 'hey dipshit, didn't I tell you this was gonna happen?'

Now these clowns today who call themselves neo-marxists are another thing altogether. Democratic socialists who still endorse free market capitalism and know squat about orthodox Marxism. A good three quarters of em are angry black folks who think they're academic celebrities because they get five minutes of air time on CNN to ramble and complain about nothing substantial with a little help from God.

The Beard prolly saw this coming, too. Guy was like a fuckin oracle.
Grow up where your parents and/or grandparents had been 'enslaved' and let us see how much you would ramble on and complain about "nothing substantial". Absolutely EVERY thing is relative to the observer, including 'nothing substantial' or NOT.
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Re: Oppositional Defiance Disorder

Post by Advocate »

a persistent pattern of anger, argumentativeness, or vindictiveness

First, it says 1-15% of kids have it. That's not even a statistic, that's a guess. Also, if 15% of kids have it is not a disorder, but a character trait. Onward.

None of those the things is the same or inherently related to the other two. A person may be consistently angry due to external circumstances that force them out of a more authentic calmer personality. To be argumentative can mean as little as that the kid is intelligent and sees how adults constantly lie to each other, quite the opposite of a disorder, except in how intelligence is a dis-ease in an unintelligent society. Vindictiveness implies there's something specific for the person to get revenge for, which could be a search for justice, quite the opposite of a mental disorder, except in how wanting justice is a dis-ease in a complacent society.
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Re: Oppositional Defiance Disorder

Post by Sculptor »

Gary Childress wrote: Tue Sep 22, 2020 1:50 am Here are the symptoms in children:

https://psychcentral.com/disorders/oppo ... -symptoms/

Apparently it can drag into adulthood too:

https://www.additudemag.com/screener-op ... st-adults/ (My favorite from the symptom questionnaire: "I can’t stand authority figures. Fight the power!")

I wonder, is there a line between being fiercely independent minded and having "defiance disorder"? I also wonder if any of the great thinkers in history would fall into this category; Galileo, for example? What about Anarchist, Noam Chomsky?
Psychs try to keep relevant by invented carchy new phases by which they pretent to have discovered something.
This particular one assumes you are only sane of you obey. With such inventions, psychological "science" is most easily able to get grants to further their "research", and so the cycle of academic sef validation continues.
I assess this new "disorder" and espacially your personal attitude towards it would have made the gulags of Soviet Russia green with envy.
IN one fowl swoop you have managed to traduce all political opponents by associating them with some recognised mental disorder.
Bring on authoritarianism.
Have a word with your self!
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Re: Oppositional Defiance Disorder

Post by RCSaunders »

Sculptor wrote: Mon Feb 21, 2022 3:48 pm
Gary Childress wrote: Tue Sep 22, 2020 1:50 am Here are the symptoms in children:

https://psychcentral.com/disorders/oppo ... -symptoms/

Apparently it can drag into adulthood too:

https://www.additudemag.com/screener-op ... st-adults/ (My favorite from the symptom questionnaire: "I can’t stand authority figures. Fight the power!")

I wonder, is there a line between being fiercely independent minded and having "defiance disorder"? I also wonder if any of the great thinkers in history would fall into this category; Galileo, for example? What about Anarchist, Noam Chomsky?
Psychs try to keep relevant by invented carchy new phases by which they pretent to have discovered something.
This particular one assumes you are only sane of you obey. With such inventions, psychological "science" is most easily able to get grants to further their "research", and so the cycle of academic sef validation continues.
I assess this new "disorder" and espacially your personal attitude towards it would have made the gulags of Soviet Russia green with envy.
IN one fowl swoop you have managed to traduce all political opponents by associating them with some recognised mental disorder.
Bring on authoritarianism.
Have a word with your self!
Yes!

It used to be called, "initiative," "self-assurance," and, "thinking for yourself." Now, if you won't do what everyone else does, and refuse to bow and scrape to every self-appointed authority you are called odd. Well, today, if you actually amount to anything on your own, you are odd.

Mustn't have people actually thinking for themselves and not going along with the program. Lock 'em up.
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Re: Oppositional Defiance Disorder

Post by Sculptor »

RCSaunders wrote: Mon Feb 21, 2022 8:58 pm
Sculptor wrote: Mon Feb 21, 2022 3:48 pm
Gary Childress wrote: Tue Sep 22, 2020 1:50 am Here are the symptoms in children:

https://psychcentral.com/disorders/oppo ... -symptoms/

Apparently it can drag into adulthood too:

https://www.additudemag.com/screener-op ... st-adults/ (My favorite from the symptom questionnaire: "I can’t stand authority figures. Fight the power!")

I wonder, is there a line between being fiercely independent minded and having "defiance disorder"? I also wonder if any of the great thinkers in history would fall into this category; Galileo, for example? What about Anarchist, Noam Chomsky?
Psychs try to keep relevant by invented carchy new phases by which they pretent to have discovered something.
This particular one assumes you are only sane of you obey. With such inventions, psychological "science" is most easily able to get grants to further their "research", and so the cycle of academic sef validation continues.
I assess this new "disorder" and espacially your personal attitude towards it would have made the gulags of Soviet Russia green with envy.
IN one fowl swoop you have managed to traduce all political opponents by associating them with some recognised mental disorder.
Bring on authoritarianism.
Have a word with your self!
Yes!

It used to be called, "initiative," "self-assurance," and, "thinking for yourself." Now, if you won't do what everyone else does, and refuse to bow and scrape to every self-appointed authority you are called odd. Well, today, if you actually amount to anything on your own, you are odd.

Mustn't have people actually thinking for themselves and not going along with the program. Lock 'em up.
It's always worth it to ask, "is this person more interested in keeping themselves looking relevant".

The grand leaders of the West have been ignoring the conflict in east Ukraine for years now. Preferring to keep their heads down, and try to ingratiate themselves into Ukraine with an ever eastwards expansion fo the sphere of influence.
Putin's not doing to well, and neither are BJ and Biden, so here comes an amazing opportunity for them to "look important and relevant".
So like the psyches inventing new catch phrases, BJ and Biden can now be "relevant" by strutting like peacocks, and distracting from their failures at home by ramping up the rhetoric on the "war".
They can urumph and trump and wag their fingers.
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