was usa founded on a fraud

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Kayla
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was usa founded on a fraud

Post by Kayla » Fri Oct 12, 2012 4:07 am

my math teacher decided to spend todays class expounding on his views on politics and history instead of doing any math which is fine with me

but given the controversial views he expresses sometimes he is bound to get himself fired one day

i know todays rant offended some people

he said that the very narrative of usa founding is a load of lies

the revolution was supposedly a tax revolt right

but one of the first acts of the new government was imposition of new taxes - and brutal suppression of a resulting revolt - such as the whiskey rebellion - because of course the new government had to pay france a lot of money

so at the end only the ruling elites benefited from the revolution - everyone else just had to pay more taxes

so basically it was all a big scam

thoughts?

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vegetariantaxidermy
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Re: was usa founded on a fraud

Post by vegetariantaxidermy » Fri Oct 12, 2012 5:33 am

I hate to say this to you, but the USA is not the centre of the Universe.

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Kayla
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Re: was usa founded on a fraud

Post by Kayla » Fri Oct 12, 2012 6:18 am

vegetariantaxidermy wrote:I hate to say this to you, but the USA is not the centre of the Universe.
yes i know that

but i was looking for more specific comments

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vegetariantaxidermy
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Re: was usa founded on a fraud

Post by vegetariantaxidermy » Fri Oct 12, 2012 6:22 am

Kayla wrote:
vegetariantaxidermy wrote:I hate to say this to you, but the USA is not the centre of the Universe.
yes i know that

but i was looking for more specific comments
I don't think you do know it. You are very arrogant without even realising it.

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Kayla
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Re: was usa founded on a fraud

Post by Kayla » Fri Oct 12, 2012 6:30 am

vegetariantaxidermy wrote:I don't think you do know it. You are very arrogant without even realising it.
arrogant?

that is pretty unusual among people on this forum dont you think

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vegetariantaxidermy
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Re: was usa founded on a fraud

Post by vegetariantaxidermy » Fri Oct 12, 2012 6:36 am

Kayla wrote:
vegetariantaxidermy wrote:I don't think you do know it. You are very arrogant without even realising it.
arrogant?

that is pretty unusual among people on this forum dont you think
Among all the non-Americans perhaps. You seem to assume that everyone is up to scratch on what is going on in your country. Are you even aware that there are other countries on the planet, with people who are concerned about their own neck of the woods rather than yours? Do you know who the Prime Minister of Australia is, without Googling it?
Last edited by vegetariantaxidermy on Fri Oct 12, 2012 7:20 am, edited 3 times in total.

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Kayla
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Re: was usa founded on a fraud

Post by Kayla » Fri Oct 12, 2012 7:02 am

vegetariantaxidermy wrote:Among all the non-Americans perhaps. You seem to assume that eveyone is up to scratch on what is going on in your country. Are you even aware that there are other countries on the planet, with people who are concerned about their own neck of the woods rather than yours? Do you know who the Prime Minister of Australia is, without Googling it?
i thought australia-hungary had an emperor rather than prime minister

you know being an empire and all

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vegetariantaxidermy
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Re: was usa founded on a fraud

Post by vegetariantaxidermy » Fri Oct 12, 2012 7:09 am

Kayla wrote:
vegetariantaxidermy wrote:Among all the non-Americans perhaps. You seem to assume that eveyone is up to scratch on what is going on in your country. Are you even aware that there are other countries on the planet, with people who are concerned about their own neck of the woods rather than yours? Do you know who the Prime Minister of Australia is, without Googling it?
i thought australia-hungary had an emperor rather than prime minister

you know being an empire and all
I would normally assume that you are joking, but scarily you could quite easily be completely serious.

reasonvemotion
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Re: was usa founded on a fraud

Post by reasonvemotion » Fri Oct 12, 2012 7:37 am

Unfortunately, America has changed, is changing and fast. You only have to visit New York and see the tell tale signs of a country in dire financial straits. The strange fact is, Americans don't seem to realise this. Its like "you are the last to know" syndrome.

I only hope it does not collapse, because if it did it would take most of us with it.

SecularCauses
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Re: was usa founded on a fraud

Post by SecularCauses » Fri Oct 12, 2012 7:45 am

Kayla wrote:my math teacher decided to spend todays class expounding on his views on politics and history instead of doing any math which is fine with me

but given the controversial views he expresses sometimes he is bound to get himself fired one day

i know todays rant offended some people

he said that the very narrative of usa founding is a load of lies

the revolution was supposedly a tax revolt right

but one of the first acts of the new government was imposition of new taxes - and brutal suppression of a resulting revolt - such as the whiskey rebellion - because of course the new government had to pay france a lot of money

so at the end only the ruling elites benefited from the revolution - everyone else just had to pay more taxes

so basically it was all a big scam

thoughts?
Why does a math teacher think he is entitled to get paid to teach math while teaching nonsense instead?

It is a non-issue. Let us suppose that America was founded on "fraud," whatever that means for a nation that was dedicated to slavery and took its moral "high-ground" from a slave-owning rapist, so? What does it matter? Is America today somehow tainted by such past acts? Isn't this an example of the irrational halo effect from neuroscience?

It is pure random chance where a person is born. Being an American is no more accurate in reality than calling oneself a British citizen, Irish citizen, Australian, etc. These are all fictional concepts, having as much to do with reality as invisible dragons in a garage. People are real, nations are fiction. People are responsible for their own acts, not for the history of a fictional nation. So, what was his point?

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Kayla
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Re: was usa founded on a fraud

Post by Kayla » Fri Oct 12, 2012 7:56 am

vegetariantaxidermy wrote: I would normally assume that you are joking, but scarily you could quite easily be completely serious.
yeah without a smiley poe's law rears its ugly head

SecularCauses
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Re: was usa founded on a fraud

Post by SecularCauses » Fri Oct 12, 2012 7:58 am

Kayla wrote:
vegetariantaxidermy wrote: I would normally assume that you are joking, but scarily you could quite easily be completely serious.
yeah without a smiley poe's law rears its ugly head
Austrians are not Australians. No joke.

MGL
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Re: was usa founded on a fraud

Post by MGL » Fri Oct 12, 2012 9:21 am

I could be wrong, but I think one of the key motivations for the revolution was not anti-taxation as such but rather "no taxation without representation".

There are probably many unsatisfying aspects of independence, - eg the continuation of slavery in the southern states despite the declaration of rights, but I think the issue of taxation per se is not among them. I understand the whiskey tax was considered unfair to westerners so it could perhaps be considered as a tax imposed by an elite, but at least there was a democratic framework of some sort in place for though which this elite could be challenged. The whiskey tax was repealed by Thomas Jefferson's government in 1800.

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John
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Re: was usa founded on a fraud

Post by John » Fri Oct 12, 2012 9:42 am

Kayla wrote:the revolution was supposedly a tax revolt right

but one of the first acts of the new government was imposition of new taxes
But it was a revolt over tax without representation, or at least that's what the rallying call was so it wasn't a revolt over the idea of tax.
Kayla wrote:so at the end only the ruling elites benefited from the revolution - everyone else just had to pay more taxes
I suppose that's the debatable part but we can glean quite a bit from Madison (in The Federalist Papers) who saw the greatest threat to the public good coming from factionalism and particularity the tensions that arise between property owners and those who do not own property. Madison also viewed the republican form of government (as opposed to the democratic form of the Ancient Greeks) as providing a filtering process that makes it more difficult for those he would consider unsavoury, or not to have the beast interest of the public good at heart, to acquire political power.

I'd say that, despite the radicalism in the American Constitution, because it is deliberately difficult to change it somewhat fossilises the views of the framers and encourages a conservative mindset. However, it also offers some protection from mob rule but the minority seeking protection are the property classes and the mob are the general populace so it is, in my opinion, designed to protect the elites. The thing that makes America different though is that it encouraged people to acquire property so that interests would converge. In the early days when there was plenty of property and many of the people that had come to America obviously possessed a pioneering spirit this was quite easy to do but nowadays it doesn't really matter if people can't acquire property, or more generally significant wealth, as long as they believe they can by playing along with the system. Like all nation states, America sells its citizens a narrative and a mythology that is designed to maintain order. It also protects the interests of the elites.

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Re: was usa founded on a fraud

Post by bobevenson » Fri Oct 12, 2012 3:39 pm

vegetariantaxidermy wrote:I hate to say this to you, but the USA is not the centre of the Universe.
The USA may not be the center of the universe, but it certainly must be the center of the world according to the news.

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