The Death of all Political Philosophy

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vegetariantaxidermy
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Re: The Death of all Political Philosophy

Post by vegetariantaxidermy » Sat Oct 13, 2012 1:05 am

John said, "How do you deal with the questions that science can't answer? It may be irrelevant to you but it isn't to others."[/quote]

Have you ever met anyone who was vehemently against abortion who wasn't a religious nut? I haven't, and the reason is that their only 'argument' is a religious one; that human life is somehow sacred, even when it's just a little clot of blood. If they can't think for themselves then why listen to them? An argument based on superstition is not worth the time of day.

SecularCauses
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Re: The Death of all Political Philosophy

Post by SecularCauses » Sat Oct 13, 2012 6:16 am

John wrote: How do you deal with the questions that science can't answer? It may be irrelevant to you but it isn't to others.
If science cannot answer the question, then the question has no present answer.

Science has, however, allowed us to understand how people arrive at moral and political judgments. It has virtually nothing to do with reasoning. Cognition is involved, involving intuitions and emotions, but reasoning is largely irrelevant. Therefore, science has informed us that trying to argue moral judgments by using rational arguments is about as productive as banging one's head against a wall.

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Re: The Death of all Political Philosophy

Post by John » Sat Oct 13, 2012 10:24 pm

SecularCauses wrote:
John wrote: How do you deal with the questions that science can't answer? It may be irrelevant to you but it isn't to others.
If science cannot answer the question, then the question has no present answer.
So would that mean abortion was legal or illegal?

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Re: The Death of all Political Philosophy

Post by John » Sat Oct 13, 2012 10:26 pm

vegetariantaxidermy wrote:John said, "How do you deal with the questions that science can't answer? It may be irrelevant to you but it isn't to others."

Have you ever met anyone who was vehemently against abortion who wasn't a religious nut? I haven't, and the reason is that their only 'argument' is a religious one; that human life is somehow sacred, even when it's just a little clot of blood. If they can't think for themselves then why listen to them? An argument based on superstition is not worth the time of day.
You may not think it's worth the time of day, and I may well agree with you, but the religious vote so you need to deal with it I'm afraid.

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Re: The Death of all Political Philosophy

Post by bobevenson » Sun Oct 14, 2012 12:00 am

vegetariantaxidermy wrote:Have you ever met anyone who was vehemently against abortion who wasn't a religious nut? I haven't, and the reason is that their only 'argument' is a religious one; that human life is somehow sacred, even when it's just a little clot of blood. If they can't think for themselves then why listen to them? An argument based on superstition is not worth the time of day.
I am vehemently against abortions for political reasons. A fetus is not only entitled to the full protection of the law, but should also have the right to vote through a surrogate in elections in a democratic society.

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John
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Re: The Death of all Political Philosophy

Post by John » Sun Oct 14, 2012 12:09 am

bobevenson wrote:
vegetariantaxidermy wrote:Have you ever met anyone who was vehemently against abortion who wasn't a religious nut? I haven't, and the reason is that their only 'argument' is a religious one; that human life is somehow sacred, even when it's just a little clot of blood. If they can't think for themselves then why listen to them? An argument based on superstition is not worth the time of day.
I am vehemently against abortions for political reasons. A fetus is not only entitled to the full protection of the law, but should also have the right to vote through a surrogate in elections in a democratic society.
So you're vehemently against abortions but you aren't a religious nut (being an altogether different type of nut)...though you claim to be a prophet...that about right?

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Re: The Death of all Political Philosophy

Post by bobevenson » Sun Oct 14, 2012 12:22 am

John wrote:
bobevenson wrote:
vegetariantaxidermy wrote:Have you ever met anyone who was vehemently against abortion who wasn't a religious nut? I haven't, and the reason is that their only 'argument' is a religious one; that human life is somehow sacred, even when it's just a little clot of blood. If they can't think for themselves then why listen to them? An argument based on superstition is not worth the time of day.
I am vehemently against abortions for political reasons. A fetus is not only entitled to the full protection of the law, but should also have the right to vote through a surrogate in elections in a democratic society.
So you're vehemently against abortions but you aren't a religious nut (being an altogether different type of nut)...though you claim to be a prophet...that about right?
I'm afraid you're getting your syntax garbled, my friend. Let me make my position perfectly clear. Anybody who participates in the abortion of a healthy fetus is a murderer who should be indicted and prosecuted like any other first-degree murderer. Religion is one of the biggest scams on Earth and our most dangerous institution. I'll leave it to others to determine whether Robert Merlin Evenson is a prophet or a magician.

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Re: The Death of all Political Philosophy

Post by John » Sun Oct 14, 2012 1:16 am

bobevenson wrote:I'll leave it to others to determine whether Robert Merlin Evenson is a prophet or a magician.
You don't though do you. You keep insisting you're a prophet so why so coy now?

SecularCauses
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Re: The Death of all Political Philosophy

Post by SecularCauses » Sun Oct 14, 2012 2:16 am

John wrote:
SecularCauses wrote:
John wrote: How do you deal with the questions that science can't answer? It may be irrelevant to you but it isn't to others.
If science cannot answer the question, then the question has no present answer.
So would that mean abortion was legal or illegal?
If you want to know whether it is legal or illegal, check the local laws that have jurisdiction over abortions in your area. My point remains that unless one can show that their moral position is true, in the same sense that a physicist can show her work is in a sense true, that any person's opinion on the mater is irrelevant. Each opinion is then as arbitrary as another. On the other hand, if thereis a way to prove one position is superior to another, then opinions also wouldn't matter. We don't ask people's opinion on whether 2 + 2 = 4 in a base-ten system.

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Re: The Death of all Political Philosophy

Post by SecularCauses » Sun Oct 14, 2012 2:20 am

bobevenson wrote:
vegetariantaxidermy wrote:Have you ever met anyone who was vehemently against abortion who wasn't a religious nut? I haven't, and the reason is that their only 'argument' is a religious one; that human life is somehow sacred, even when it's just a little clot of blood. If they can't think for themselves then why listen to them? An argument based on superstition is not worth the time of day.
I am vehemently against abortions for political reasons. A fetus is not only entitled to the full protection of the law, but should also have the right to vote through a surrogate in elections in a democratic society.
Then prove it. When the zygote first forms, why does it have rights? It can't even voice an opinion, so how does giving it rights mean anything? Even if it does have rights, doesn't the pregnant mother also have rights? What if her rights conflict with the zygote's? Whose rights are given greater weight, and why? Does the potential father have any rights? If so, how, and what weight is he given in the issue? What about potential grandparents? Do they have a say?

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Re: The Death of all Political Philosophy

Post by spike » Sun Oct 14, 2012 11:22 am

It is very awkward comparing science and politics. They serve two different purposes. One is the bricks and mortar of our existence and the other a facilitator/mediator. But sometimes they enter each others air space.

Take for instance the politics of climate change. Science has not definitively determined or convinced how climate change is occurring. But there is certainly a lot of political debate about it. And that is good because the political discussion helps find the answer, through facilitating the discussion and mediating the outcome. Also, politics bring science out in the open so the common people can begin to understand it.

And then there is the discipline of political science. It is really the study of politics. But here are some givens about politics, although vague, like there are in science. I am thinking that politics is more like quantum physics, when you examine it closely it may be something different than imagined and weird.

Right now I am on a barge cruising the Rhine. The barge is built by science and technology. But on it, among the passengers, there is a lot of political discussion about which politics is right or wrong. They do overlap but still remain separate.

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Notvacka
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Re: The Death of all Political Philosophy

Post by Notvacka » Sun Oct 14, 2012 12:33 pm

SecularCauses wrote:In science, there are rational ways to determine the truth of reality.
Well, kind of, yes.
SecularCauses wrote:And I understand that purists may argue nothing can be known for certain...
Nice of you to observe that.
SecularCauses wrote:...but I hardly think there will be a discovery millions of years from now telling us the earth was flat after all. Science is able to progress because in at least some sense there is a way to discover the nature of the cosmos. We can learn about how we evolved, how chemical reactions occur, what happens when we do certain things, etc. Our ability to use technology is a testament to the validity of scientific achievement.
Yes?
SecularCauses wrote:Now, when it comes to politics, either we are still in the land of something like the field of physics, where right and wrong answers do exist, and can be rationally determined...
Whoa! What do you mean by "right" and "wrong" here, in a political context? Do you suggest that answers to questions like how high taxes should be, can be deemed "right" or "wrong"?
SecularCauses wrote:...or else, we are in a no-person's land where any opinion and idea is as good as any other.
Why do you say that? Just because there is no absolute, ideas and opinions can still have more or less merit relative to each other, depending on perspective.
SecularCauses wrote:If the situation is that one can discern political truth in the same manner that physicists can discover atoms...
What is a "political truth"?
SecularCauses wrote:...then we need to defer to the results of rational scientific methods in making political decisions.
I agree that it's good to get the facts straight first, whenever possible, if that's what you mean. It's no good contradicting a fact with an opinion. But scientific methods can only give us facts to base our political decisions upon. There can be no scientific method to make the actual decisions.
SecularCauses wrote:On the other hand, if science and reason do not apply, then no opinions matter.
Why do you say that? Of course opinions matter. Politics is all about opinions. Science and reason do apply, to some extent, but in the end it's the opinions that matter.
SecularCauses wrote:No one can prove their position is superior to any other and arguments become as pointless as they can be.
You don't need proof in politics. You need to convince people that your opinion is superior, and arguments are not pointless. A good argument is a convincing argument.
SecularCauses wrote:In either case, the arm-chair political opinions are illegitimate.
What do you mean by "illegitimate"?
SecularCauses wrote:Unless someone can point to scentific evidence to support their position, or something very much like it, their opinion is without merit.
To you perhaps. But not to every voter out there.
SecularCauses wrote:Either realism is real or else nothing matters and political knowledge is an illusion and does not exist.
What do you mean by "realism is real"? Sounds nonsensical to me. And what do you mean by "political knowledge" as opposed to general knowledge?

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Re: The Death of all Political Philosophy

Post by bobevenson » Sun Oct 14, 2012 8:35 pm

John wrote:
bobevenson wrote:I'll leave it to others to determine whether Robert Merlin Evenson is a prophet or a magician.
You don't though do you. You keep insisting you're a prophet so why so coy now?
Yes, I'm a prophet, and I'll keep reminding you of it, but in the end, people have to come to their own conclusions, which, of course, doesn't change anything.
Last edited by bobevenson on Sun Oct 14, 2012 8:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: The Death of all Political Philosophy

Post by bobevenson » Sun Oct 14, 2012 8:51 pm

SecularCauses wrote:
bobevenson wrote:
vegetariantaxidermy wrote:Have you ever met anyone who was vehemently against abortion who wasn't a religious nut? I haven't, and the reason is that their only 'argument' is a religious one; that human life is somehow sacred, even when it's just a little clot of blood. If they can't think for themselves then why listen to them? An argument based on superstition is not worth the time of day.
I am vehemently against abortions for political reasons. A fetus is not only entitled to the full protection of the law, but should also have the right to vote through a surrogate in elections in a democratic society.
Then prove it. When the zygote first forms, why does it have rights? It can't even voice an opinion, so how does giving it rights mean anything? Even if it does have rights, doesn't the pregnant mother also have rights? What if her rights conflict with the zygote's? Whose rights are given greater weight, and why? Does the potential father have any rights? If so, how, and what weight is he given in the issue? What about potential grandparents? Do they have a say?
There is nothing to prove. A fetus is a very young child, and nobody, including the mother, has the right to kill a healthy child simply because it's inside her body. In the same way, she doesn't have the right to kill an older child simply because it's inside her house.

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John
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Re: The Death of all Political Philosophy

Post by John » Sun Oct 14, 2012 11:53 pm

SecularCauses wrote:If you want to know whether it is legal or illegal, check the local laws that have jurisdiction over abortions in your area. My point remains that unless one can show that their moral position is true, in the same sense that a physicist can show her work is in a sense true, that any person's opinion on the mater is irrelevant. Each opinion is then as arbitrary as another. On the other hand, if thereis a way to prove one position is superior to another, then opinions also wouldn't matter. We don't ask people's opinion on whether 2 + 2 = 4 in a base-ten system.
I know the local laws in my jurisdiction. I want to know what you would do though because I'm interested in the practical application of philosophy.

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