John Rawls, the veil of ignorance and American attitudes

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ForgedinHell
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Re: John Rawls, the veil of ignorance and American attitudes

Post by ForgedinHell » Mon Aug 27, 2012 2:01 am

Leninist wrote:
ForgedinHell wrote:I would largely let the people manage themselves. Unless something can truly be shown to be a public good,
Lets have a hypothetical situation. Suppose most of the population, say, 80%, considers their lives to be unequal by default. Most of the land is owned by the 20% of the population and most of the business share-holders have vast amounts of money - the interest goes to them.

To what end does it become a public good? Slavery is a form of inequality, slaves are never viewed or treated as equals.
Many people who live at the bottom of society will never achieve a quality of life that the rich do. And, it is not because they do not work, or are lazy; many people work for hours on ends and get very little. Even people who are intellectuals cannot reach a class that the extreme rich have reached(Though their lives are most likely better of).

So, even if someone is simple minded, or intelligent, there is still a divide between the quality of life.
The question I put to you is, when does it become a "public concern"?
ForgedinHell wrote:then it should not be provided by the government.
Inequality is a non-issue. We've already been over this above. If you are jealous of people who have more than you, and you think that makes them evil, then you are nothing but a jealous person full of envy, and politics of envy is for the feeble-minded, count me out.
Then are you in favour of revolutions?

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Leninist
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Re: John Rawls, the veil of ignorance and American attitudes

Post by Leninist » Mon Aug 27, 2012 4:59 am

ForgedinHell wrote:Inequality is a non-issue. We've already been over this above. If you are jealous of people who have more than you, and you think that makes them evil, then you are nothing but a jealous person full of envy, and politics of envy is for the feeble-minded, count me out.
Then are you in favour of revolutions?
You still haven't told me what a non-issue is.

I'll speculate on this matter and assume you mean, it just doesn't matter.
Since slaves are unequal then of course, it is a non-issue.
By this logic, you are not a Spinozian in this regard, but fit more into the Aristotelian notion of the natural slave.

There's nothing wrong with this.

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ForgedinHell
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Re: John Rawls, the veil of ignorance and American attitudes

Post by ForgedinHell » Mon Aug 27, 2012 5:05 am

Leninist wrote:
ForgedinHell wrote:Inequality is a non-issue. We've already been over this above. If you are jealous of people who have more than you, and you think that makes them evil, then you are nothing but a jealous person full of envy, and politics of envy is for the feeble-minded, count me out.
Then are you in favour of revolutions?
You still haven't told me what a non-issue is.

I'll speculate on this matter and assume you mean, it just doesn't matter.
Since slaves are unequal then of course, it is a non-issue.
By this logic, you are not a Spinozian in this regard, but fit more into the Aristotelian notion of the natural slave.

There's nothing wrong with this.
No one is a slave in America, so, once again, you are just raising a non-issue, something completely lacking in any significance. It is you and your marxism crap that leads to slavery. You, like every Marxist I have ever met, is just a hypocrite. Letting the politicians dictate to everyone how to live their lives just turns everyone into a slave. "Dictatorship of the proletariat" is just a dictatorship.

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Leninist
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Re: John Rawls, the veil of ignorance and American attitudes

Post by Leninist » Mon Aug 27, 2012 6:08 am

ForgedinHell wrote:No one is a slave in America, so, once again, you are just raising a non-issue, something completely lacking in any significance.
People of certain religions could not take part in politics. Black people were oppressed(enslaved) in America for a long period, they did not have the right to vote and were treated very poorly. Women also had lesser rights and also could not vote. People of different ethnic origins had less rights and could also not vote.

230 years ago, or so, only people who had a certain amount of wealth could vote in America. Only in 1964 was poll tax lifted which prevented many poor Americans from voting

I'm pretty sure there were people just like you, saying back then, "this is a non-issue".
ForgedinHell wrote:It is you and your marxism crap that leads to slavery.
Childish.
ForgedinHell wrote:You, like every Marxist I have ever met, is just a hypocrite. Letting the politicians dictate to everyone how to live their lives just turns everyone into a slave. "Dictatorship of the proletariat" is just a dictatorship.
If you read Marx, there is also another revolution after the primitive socialism transition, which gets rid of the proletariat state.

This topic however, has nothing to do with Marxism, it is about inequality.

But, since you think inequality is a non-issue then we can end the conversation here.

EchoesOfTheHorizon
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Re: John Rawls, the veil of ignorance and American attitudes

Post by EchoesOfTheHorizon » Mon Oct 23, 2017 9:03 am

Rawl's Veil of Ignorance is one of the big mistakes of philosophy, it was a completely bullshit and inept theory, for whenever it is brought up in live philosophy groups and explained, it has to be stated that the theory is concluded, as everyone is still waiting for the conclusion to get the point. Everyone just starts ripping into it, asking about what would the theory do to stop Nietzscheans and Machiavellians and the general criminal element in society from disregarding the arguments whatsoever, presuming with fully rational functions that they can exploit and play the odds however it stands. Not knowing how you are going to end up when playing a game blind doesn't result in greater equality. Playing the lottery doesn't result in greater equality, but that involves a veil of ignorance. Robbing a liquor store doesn't result in greater equality or even necessarily wealthy but not knowing what you'll possibly get in advanced doesn't make the situation any better. Knowing everyone has a equal chance of getting drafted doesn't make the military or society more egalitarian, just forces multiple hierarchies and mindsets on everyone.

Only time we had equality in America was precisely when the veil didn't exist, such as under John Smith's dictatorship at Jamestown. Every time we assert the logic of a veil, class warfare erupts, often lead by the very abusers of the classes protesting. Occupy Wallstreet was ran by liberal oppressors, corporations. Black Lives Matter, fighting for racial justice, was largely ran by hard core racists.... but it is always the principle of the matter, and the principle is our veil. We can separate ourselves from our actions, through abstraction and group feeling. Harvey Weinstein can be a great defender of feminism and women, just like Hillary can, who defended a rapist of a little girl when she was a lawyer, and defended bill clinton's multiple rapes.

That's something I don't think could exist without years and years of dumbing down liberals in places like Harvard, being fed The Veil of Ignorance. It never made you think about how people really are, how society really works. It allowed rich kids taking the easy way through Harvard (you can always bullshit your way through philosophy) to assert pretenses in adopting the veil. They funneled their guilt into activism, but never once stopped being a bunch of disgusting, immoral, degenerate human beings. They continue doing their crap, living segeregated. I assure you, people in all white Portland Oregon had a debate a few times this year about the Veil of Ignorance and Social and Racial Injustice.... the theory does absolutely nothing positive, doesn't get us to think positively about race, if anything, causes some very bad cyclic sociological responses in class warfare. It is a easy thing to adopt, assert, and absolve guilt through. Seems so simple, such a easy fix, but absolutely nobody actually embraces it. Discrimination seems to go up as a response to touching it, you merely gotta look at the absurdities of the modern progressive movement. It made the liberals in America about as racially united as Communism made the Soviets rich. It is a blow theory, something we never should of allowed to take root in a top university, something we should ignore and let die, surviving only in a few feminist literature studies from Ivy League rich girls pursuing a nothing degree, and a handful of historical revisionists. The Veil of Ignorance is a lesson to all in how philosophy absolutely should not be conducted. It is a embarrassment to us all. It has done for philosophy about the same order of pragmatic good as animal sacrifice has done for meteorology in controlling the weather. You can't improve race or class conditions in any society with such a philosophy, it can't be done, and the imaginative exercise has the exact opposite effect on people, makes them worst people in the long run.

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