Black People and Crime

How should society be organised, if at all?

Moderators: AMod, iMod

tbieter
Posts: 1206
Joined: Wed Oct 17, 2007 6:45 pm
Location: St. Paul, Minnesota, USA

Re: Black People and Crime

Post by tbieter »

tbieter wrote:“While Al Sharpton and Jesse Jackson were continuing to stir up racial animosity in Sanford Florida, one of the worst mass shootings in Florida history was taking place in Miami. Last Friday, 14 people were shot and two men were killed during a funeral for 21-year-old Morvin Andre. A 5-year-old girl was wounded in the exchange as well. Why no outrage or calls for massive demonstrations? Because the shooters were allegedly black gang members attending the funeral. In other words, there’s nothing that can be politically exploited here by those willing to ignore the harsh reality that, in the overwhelming majority of cases, black Americans are being victimized by other black Americans.”
http://frontpagemag.com/2012/04/03/why- ... g-victims/

In Minnesota, North Minneapolis is the area where blacks regularly kill other blacks. Children are killed by drive-by shooters. Recently, a family heard gunfire. As the mother and kids were in flight upstairs, a bullet pierced the wall of the house and struck a boy in the back of his head killing him instantly. As is customary, thereafter a community protest against guns and violence is held. Appropriate T-shirts are worn by the attendees. The appropriate politicians are there. The media gives a reasonable amount of coverage to the event. But, as these events occur, the blacks in the area reload their equalizers. And life goes on as usual, with white people being quietly grateful for the continued confinement of black violence by area and victims.

Generally, blacks, who constitute about 12% of the US population, commit violent crimes disproportionate to their representation in the general population. http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/ucr/ucr http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/ucr/cr ... tbl43a.xls

As a white person, I never enter North Minneapolis. And, given their propensity toward criminal conduct, I’m very wary whenever I encounter any black teenagers or adults, male or female.

To my knowledge, neither President Obama nor Attorney General Holder have ever delivered a major speech regarding the criminal behavior in the “black community”.

If they don’t care, why should any white person care. Rather, the prudent white person will concentrate on his or her personal strategy for self-defense.
Six months ago:
In Minnesota, North Minneapolis is the area where blacks regularly kill other blacks. Children are killed by drive-by shooters. Recently, a family heard gunfire. As the mother and kids were in flight upstairs, a bullet pierced the wall of the house and struck a boy in the back of his head killing him instantly.

Yesterday:
"A 5-year-old boy snoozing on his grandmother's big green couch was killed Tuesday, June 26, when a gunman sprayed a North Minneapolis house with gunfire.

The gunman ran off, and police launched a manhunt to identify and arrest him."
http://www.twincities.com/localnews/ci_ ... -by-bullet
User avatar
Kayla
Posts: 1217
Joined: Wed Feb 02, 2011 6:31 am

Re: Black People and Crime

Post by Kayla »

tbieter is there any particular point you are trying to establish with above post
chaz wyman
Posts: 5304
Joined: Fri Mar 12, 2010 7:31 pm

Re: Black People and Crime

Post by chaz wyman »

Kayla wrote:tbieter is there any particular point you are trying to establish with above post
tbieter is just trying to prove himself a racist - and succeeding.

He ought to be smart enough to know that selecting a few crimes committed by blacks does not prove anything.
All the worst crimes committed in the 20thC were committed by white people; Hitler & Stalin.
Selective bias is a game anyone can play.
reasonvemotion
Posts: 1813
Joined: Tue May 15, 2012 1:22 am

Re: Black People and Crime

Post by reasonvemotion »

Shame on you tbieter. I would not enter your neighbourhood, for fear I would meet up with you.
Foramen Magnum
Posts: 11
Joined: Thu Aug 30, 2012 5:32 pm
Location: south carolina, usa

Re: Black People and Crime

Post by Foramen Magnum »

The problem's not strictly socio-economic and not strictly racial -- it's cultural. A particular brand of culture (thug culture) glorifies criminality for its own sake, and exalts the lifestyle as some twisted type of martyrdom. Is this lifestyle endemic in the black community? Yes. But it's not limited to the black community. Criminality isn't fundamental to the black population anymore than laziness to someone with African sleeping sickness.

And being poor isn't an excuse for murder.
chaz wyman
Posts: 5304
Joined: Fri Mar 12, 2010 7:31 pm

Re: Black People and Crime

Post by chaz wyman »

Foramen Magnum wrote:The problem's not strictly socio-economic and not strictly racial -- it's cultural. A particular brand of culture (thug culture) glorifies criminality for its own sake, and exalts the lifestyle as some twisted type of martyrdom. Is this lifestyle endemic in the black community? Yes. But it's not limited to the black community. Criminality isn't fundamental to the black population anymore than laziness to someone with African sleeping sickness.

And being poor isn't an excuse for murder.
You are right. its cultural. Its obvious enough to understand - all you have to do is compare those blacks that have made a success of it.
The trouble is that there are plenty of forces willing to make money out of glorifying and valorising that culture. White culture is more than happy to make cash from the 'gansta-rap' music industry buy selling "kewl", and the news media line up everyday to pour the poison about 'young black males' killing each other, and basically ignoring the real criminals of society that still get the bonuses from destroying the economy.
Any political reflection of a serious nature is suppressed and tragically the same young black males seems happy enough to participate in their own oppression by buying into that idiotic culture.
But what choice have they? Choice involves more than opportunity, which is limited, but also restricted by the need to belong to one's community, whilst being rejected by a white one.
Foramen Magnum
Posts: 11
Joined: Thu Aug 30, 2012 5:32 pm
Location: south carolina, usa

Re: Black People and Crime

Post by Foramen Magnum »

and the news media line up everyday to pour the poison about 'young black males' killing each other

I think if you chalk it up to media conspiracy, you leave out accountability. People do buy into that culture; they do kill each other, and sometimes innocents. What's worse, they laugh about it on Facebook and shout "Free [insert ridiculous alias, a la: LilBigzBoyPoon]" when a friend is arrested for murder. I don't think all black people should bare the weight, but a murderer is a murderer, poor or black notwithstanding.

But what choice have they? Choice involves more than opportunity, which is limited, but also restricted by the need to belong to one's community, whilst being rejected by a white one.

Thugs didn't start with rap music; it's been around a long time, primarily because it's easy business. Work a month for rent, or work an hour. The latter is a temptation that one has to take. Sure, that temptation is more attractive in certain landscapes, but it's always chosen. Again, sidestepping accountability is part of the problem, IMO.
tbieter
Posts: 1206
Joined: Wed Oct 17, 2007 6:45 pm
Location: St. Paul, Minnesota, USA

Re: Black People and Crime

Post by tbieter »

Foramen Magnum wrote:and the news media line up everyday to pour the poison about 'young black males' killing each other

I think if you chalk it up to media conspiracy, you leave out accountability. People do buy into that culture; they do kill each other, and sometimes innocents. What's worse, they laugh about it on Facebook and shout "Free [insert ridiculous alias, a la: LilBigzBoyPoon]" when a friend is arrested for murder. I don't think all black people should bare the weight, but a murderer is a murderer, poor or black notwithstanding.

But what choice have they? Choice involves more than opportunity, which is limited, but also restricted by the need to belong to one's community, whilst being rejected by a white one.

Thugs didn't start with rap music; it's been around a long time, primarily because it's easy business. Work a month for rent, or work an hour. The latter is a temptation that one has to take. Sure, that temptation is more attractive in certain landscapes, but it's always chosen. Again, sidestepping accountability is part of the problem, IMO.
Here is the latest violent crime incident by black people in Woodbury, a suburb. http://www.twincities.com/localnews/ci_ ... n-at-motel
chaz wyman
Posts: 5304
Joined: Fri Mar 12, 2010 7:31 pm

Re: Black People and Crime

Post by chaz wyman »

Foramen Magnum wrote:and the news media line up everyday to pour the poison about 'young black males' killing each other

I think if you chalk it up to media conspiracy, you leave out accountability. People do buy into that culture; they do kill each other, and sometimes innocents. What's worse, they laugh about it on Facebook and shout "Free [insert ridiculous alias, a la: LilBigzBoyPoon]" when a friend is arrested for murder. I don't think all black people should bare the weight, but a murderer is a murderer, poor or black notwithstanding.

But what choice have they? Choice involves more than opportunity, which is limited, but also restricted by the need to belong to one's community, whilst being rejected by a white one.

Thugs didn't start with rap music; it's been around a long time, primarily because it's easy business. Work a month for rent, or work an hour. The latter is a temptation that one has to take. Sure, that temptation is more attractive in certain landscapes, but it's always chosen. Again, sidestepping accountability is part of the problem, IMO.
Murder is not murder. Each has its own reasons and background.
I'm sure that if you or I had been born into that culture then we would likely have as much chance as any other black boy.
All you are doing is dismissing the causative factors. That makes you part of the problem and not part of the solution.
Foramen Magnum
Posts: 11
Joined: Thu Aug 30, 2012 5:32 pm
Location: south carolina, usa

Re: Black People and Crime

Post by Foramen Magnum »

chaz wyman wrote:Murder is not murder. Each has its own reasons and background.
I'm sure that if you or I had been born into that culture then we would likely have as much chance as any other black boy.
All you are doing is dismissing the causative factors. That makes you part of the problem and not part of the solution.
I'm not dismissing causative factors, I'm saying these causative factors aren't justification. I don't understand how that makes me part of the problem.

Maybe another part of the problem is dismissing autonomy -- these kids are victims to such an exaggerated degree that they've been conditioned into murderous automatons by their own deleterious environment. But there's little dignity in conditioning.

Maybe the solution is somewhere in the middle?
chaz wyman
Posts: 5304
Joined: Fri Mar 12, 2010 7:31 pm

Re: Black People and Crime

Post by chaz wyman »

Foramen Magnum wrote:
chaz wyman wrote:Murder is not murder. Each has its own reasons and background.
I'm sure that if you or I had been born into that culture then we would likely have as much chance as any other black boy.
All you are doing is dismissing the causative factors. That makes you part of the problem and not part of the solution.
I'm not dismissing causative factors, I'm saying these causative factors aren't justification. I don't understand how that makes me part of the problem.

No one is arguing that you let people off - but mitigation is a valued tool of sentencing, and understanding the roots of the culture is a first step to improving society. You seem to have a 'let 'em burn' attitude, ignoring the wider harm that is going on, and forgetting the interests that continue to perpetuate that culture.


Maybe another part of the problem is dismissing autonomy -- these kids are victims to such an exaggerated degree that they've been conditioned into murderous automatons by their own deleterious environment. But there's little dignity in conditioning.

Its not 'their' environment. The social environment is the responsibility of society as a whole.


Maybe the solution is somewhere in the middle?

If you simply focus the blame on individual responsibility then you don't 'change the culture'; that goes for black 'hoods' and the financial institutions that ruined the economy by selling lies.

Filling the prisons and death-rows to breaking point is not any kind of a solution - it is just a perpetuation and self justification serving no one but the prison service sector - creating a self perpetuating gravy train os mutual satisfaction.

Foramen Magnum
Posts: 11
Joined: Thu Aug 30, 2012 5:32 pm
Location: south carolina, usa

Re: Black People and Crime

Post by Foramen Magnum »

chaz wyman wrote:No one is arguing that you let people off - but mitigation is a valued tool of sentencing, and understanding the roots of the culture is a first step to improving society. You seem to have a 'let 'em burn' attitude, ignoring the wider harm that is going on, and forgetting the interests that continue to perpetuate that culture.
I never made suggestions about punishment or handing out life sentences; I don't know where you got the 'let em burn' thing. Regardless, mitigation is pretty common.

I take your point about the problem becoming a generational one, or at least I think that's your point. I just think the problem has in a way become romanticized, so that if one is poor, they have no choice but to take up crime -- and this is even the noble course of action, because somehow food's got to get on the table, right? Sure. But crime is the easy way to do it. The hard way is to work, which many in destitute areas do. Saying that thugs had no choice degrades those who chose not to enter the culture.



chaz wyman wrote:If you simply focus the blame on individual responsibility then you don't 'change the culture'; that goes for black 'hoods' and the financial institutions that ruined the economy by selling lies.

Filling the prisons and death-rows to breaking point is not any kind of a solution - it is just a perpetuation and self justification serving no one but the prison service sector - creating a self perpetuating gravy train os mutual satisfaction
Again, I'm not advocating filling up the the prison systems. Going to prison is a point of pride in thug culture, anyhow. But no consequence or recognition of individual responsibility perpetuates the problem, and is one of the causes of the financial crisis you keep mentioning.
chaz wyman
Posts: 5304
Joined: Fri Mar 12, 2010 7:31 pm

Re: Black People and Crime

Post by chaz wyman »

Foramen Magnum wrote:
chaz wyman wrote:No one is arguing that you let people off - but mitigation is a valued tool of sentencing, and understanding the roots of the culture is a first step to improving society. You seem to have a 'let 'em burn' attitude, ignoring the wider harm that is going on, and forgetting the interests that continue to perpetuate that culture.
I never made suggestions about punishment or handing out life sentences; I don't know where you got the 'let em burn' thing. Regardless, mitigation is pretty common.

You are contradicting yourself.
You said "these causative factors aren't justification"- but that is exactly what mitigation is.


I take your point about the problem becoming a generational one, or at least I think that's your point. I just think the problem has in a way become romanticized, so that if one is poor, they have no choice but to take up crime -- and this is even the noble course of action, because somehow food's got to get on the table, right? Sure. But crime is the easy way to do it. The hard way is to work, which many in destitute areas do. Saying that thugs had no choice degrades those who chose not to enter the culture.

For most of these violent crimes it has little to do with food on the table; gang culture follows its own cultural logic, and is buoyed up by the music industry which makes it romantic and sexy.
Accepting this is one way to invite young black males to re-consider their position and role in life.


chaz wyman wrote:If you simply focus the blame on individual responsibility then you don't 'change the culture'; that goes for black 'hoods' and the financial institutions that ruined the economy by selling lies.

Filling the prisons and death-rows to breaking point is not any kind of a solution - it is just a perpetuation and self justification serving no one but the prison service sector - creating a self perpetuating gravy train os mutual satisfaction
Again, I'm not advocating filling up the the prison systems. Going to prison is a point of pride in thug culture, anyhow. But no consequence or recognition of individual responsibility perpetuates the problem, and is one of the causes of the financial crisis you keep mentioning.

And yet you were keen to say 'murder is murder' - not a particularly intelligent way to look at the problem.
Foramen Magnum
Posts: 11
Joined: Thu Aug 30, 2012 5:32 pm
Location: south carolina, usa

Re: Black People and Crime

Post by Foramen Magnum »

chaz wyman wrote:You are contradicting yourself.
You said "these causative factors aren't justification"- but that is exactly what mitigation is.
How am I contradicting myself? I said mitigation is common, because it is. That's not a position, so I can't have contradicted myself. And besides, morality, the law, and application of the law don't always perfectly align.
chaz wyman wrote:For most of these violent crimes it has little to do with food on the table; gang culture follows its own cultural logic, and is buoyed up by the music industry which makes it romantic and sexy.
Accepting this is one way to invite young black males to re-consider their position and role in life.

My point was that putting food on the table gets thrown in as justification. There's a mythology (not in the derogatory sense of the term) generated that one is necessarily in a 'struggle', and there are only certain ways to overcome that struggle (criminality). I agree music may in part propagate that mythology.
chaz wyman wrote:And yet you were keen to say 'murder is murder' - not a particularly intelligent way to look at the problem.
I don't know why you're being inflammatory; I think I've been pretty polite. But by all means, explain the nuances of murder to me.
User avatar
ForgedinHell
Posts: 762
Joined: Sun Mar 04, 2012 8:26 am
Location: Pueblo West, CO

Re: Black People and Crime

Post by ForgedinHell »

If the point of this post is that black people are somehow inferior to white people, or anyone else, then this post is shameful crap, completely false, and reminds me of how racism still provides comfort to so many jerkoffs. Anyone who hates blacks may consider me black. Piss off, racist scum.
Post Reply