Capitalism as a moral system

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spike
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Re: Capitalism as a moral system

Post by spike »

Spike, the way you use the word "capitalism" it becomes a catch phrase for almost anything. I don't think you have much grasp of the concept, and since there is no consensus on a precise definition of the word "capitalism" anyway, I suggest that you try to state your case without using that word at all. This is a constructive suggestion, since such limitations force you to actually think about what you want to say before you blurt it out.
Notvacka, just check out there in the outside world and see how capitalism is talked about and used. It is used to describe free market principles as opposed to Marxism and communism, which don't adhere to that idea.

Capitalism as I use it is not a catch phrase for everything. For instance, it is not the same as democracy. But capitalism and democracy are two theories that come together to form the liberal democracy in which advanced and developed countries reside in, as Francis Fukuyama referred to them, liberal meaning the free market. And without the free market democracy could not be maintained or sustained. But Fukuyama was aware of people like you who think of capitalism in such a pejorative way. So, as he explained, used the world 'liberal' instead.

It is you detractors of capitalism who have no #@* idea what you are talking about. You, as infants, are using it to describe bad people on Wall St. Capitalism goes far beyond that. It is an entire economic system. And if you were at all that rational you could step outside yourselves and realize that it is what supplies your cushy, tiny lives.
converge
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Re: Capitalism as a moral system

Post by converge »

spike wrote:[
Notvacka, just check out there in the outside world and see how capitalism is talked about and used. It is used to describe free market principles as opposed to Marxism and communism, which don't adhere to that idea.
But earlier you said that socialism IS capitalism, and that Marx was the grandfather of capitalism. You also said that several communist nations are actually capitalist. The only concrete thing you've mentioned so far that doesn't seem to be "capitalism" to you is the city of Havana, but I'm not sure why.
Capitalism as I use it is not a catch phrase for everything. For instance, it is not the same as democracy.
You're starting out ok, but then....
And without the free market democracy could not be maintained or sustained
you lose it again. You claim there's a difference between capitalism and democracy, but then you say that democracy has to be capitalist. If you can't even imagine the concept of voting without it somehow being part of capitalism, then you've still got capitalism on the brain.
It is you detractors of capitalism who have no #@* idea what you are talking about. You, as infants, are using it to describe bad people on Wall St. Capitalism goes far beyond that. It is an entire economic system. And if you were at all that rational you could step outside yourselves and realize that it is what supplies your cushy, tiny lives.
Lol what? You kind of turned into a supervillain towards the end there.
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Notvacka
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Re: Capitalism as a moral system

Post by Notvacka »

spike wrote:Capitalism as I use it is not a catch phrase for everything. For instance, it is not the same as democracy.
Not only is capitalism not the same as democracy, but if you think about it, it's actually opposed to democracy.

Modern representative democracy is about giving power to certain people (politicians) whom we choose in elections.

Capitalism, on the other hand, is about giving power to certain people (those who own most money) whom are not chosen in any elections.

Those (insert your favourite tea here) who go on about "big government" and want politicians to have less power, are practically anti-democratic.
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John
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Re: Capitalism as a moral system

Post by John »

converge wrote:
spike wrote: It is you detractors of capitalism who have no #@* idea what you are talking about. You, as infants, are using it to describe bad people on Wall St. Capitalism goes far beyond that. It is an entire economic system. And if you were at all that rational you could step outside yourselves and realize that it is what supplies your cushy, tiny lives.
Lol what? You kind of turned into a supervillain towards the end there.
Or at the very least:

Image
Typist
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Re: Capitalism as a moral system

Post by Typist »

Show me the evidence that reason and philosophy can be productively used to fight really scary looking supervillains. Show me the evidence!!

He he.. :lol: :lol:
prof
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Re: Capitalism as a moral system

Post by prof »

Greetings Spike

While I admire what you wrote in another thread about how ethical living has evolved throughout the centuries, how ethics has made progress, you are off-base here.

You mention Adam Smith, and the fact that he was an ethical theorist.
I think, if he were somehow apprised of, or made aware of, later developments, he would be utterly horrified by what capitalism has become since he first proposed it :!:

You also speak of "free markets".... I don't think this is in touch with reality. There are very few or none these days. Many, many corporations get subsidies or some kind of break from the government. This is especially true of Big Oil, namely the oil-and-gas industry - and it lobbies strongly against progress, against our transitioning to clean, green energy. It has the clout to get its way. Its commercials on TV claim it is in favor of such progress but its actions show that it wants to kill such competition. Monopoly is a natural outgrowth of Capitalism. Monopolies set up barriers to free competition.

The so-called "Free Market" is not free. So beware just spouting talking points of the think tanks - such as the American Enterprise Institute or the Manhattan Institute, or the Rand Corporation, etc. - which capitalists fund, and which were set up in an attempt to rationalize about what capitalists do in practice.
bobevenson
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Re: Capitalism as a moral system

Post by bobevenson »

Crony capitalism is as improper as the government supporting it. Please do not confuse it with free-market capitalism.
spike
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Re: Capitalism as a moral system

Post by spike »

The question should be, would we have morals without capitalism?

If one compares capitalism to to the economics of communism or authoritarianism then one understands the meaning of 'free markets', of the rights to own property, to freely exchange ideas and communicate (as we are doing on our computers, which would not exist if there wasn't a free market), of mobility, to criticize, to compete and to expect satisfaction. All those activities have developed our moral fiber, because they intensely engage us in the market place, unlike communism or authoritarianism. And unlike communism or authoritarianism capitalism and free markets have developed in its participants the most essential moral - trust, that one can generally trust those we do business with and if not, we can expect recourse.
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