Decline of the West???

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Wizard22
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Re: Decline of the West???

Post by Wizard22 »

Impenitent wrote: Sat May 27, 2023 10:57 pmdo you know why China will invade Taiwan instead of California?

-Imp
Because they already own California?
Impenitent
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Re: Decline of the West???

Post by Impenitent »

they might own certain politicians, but not all of California...

-Imp
Maia
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Re: Decline of the West???

Post by Maia »

As a student of history the evidence of decline is everywhere, but it's worth pointing out that the West has experienced at least one catastrophic collapse in the past, and after a few hundred years, managed to drag itself out of that. This is not particularly encouraging, though.
Iwannaplato
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Re: Decline of the West???

Post by Iwannaplato »

Wizard22 wrote: Fri May 26, 2023 10:13 am What's your position or opinion on the matter, is the West ascending, stagnant, or declining?
I'd shift my response to the side of those. I'd say that the most important thing is that the utterly buffered class no longer needs nations or workers in the way they did before. So, apart from the nurturing of a culture war as distraction, they are removing the middle class, increasing everyone's bills and state of being surveilled, and destroying all supportive institutions. I get the sense they either they have to move to open dystopia and/or technology now makes this easier and/or this is partly an inevitable unfolding from sicknesses already in place.
Should the West ascend? Automatically, people want their own society/tribe/country/party to ascend, but why? Why is your group better than..."the East" for example? Why should "Westerners" rule-over the globe, the East?
The West and the East are looking more and more like each other in terms of elite rule.
Everything has become globalized/americanized/internationalized. Should people return to Nationalism, small concentrated power in the hands of a few countries, over many others? Are the American-Anglos still in charge, or has another Tribe taken over, taken the reigns? Who "deserves" to be in charge, if not the current "powers that be"?
Nation states were, at one time, as unnatural conglomerations as globalization patterns are. The faster, broader technology got, the more able power players were able to have larger conglomerations for their own benefit. So, ya, in nation states compared with the ultimate nation state of a global government are preferable, but not as the return of noble entities, but as lesser evils.
Wizard22
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Re: Decline of the West???

Post by Wizard22 »

Maia wrote: Sun May 28, 2023 7:04 amAs a student of history the evidence of decline is everywhere, but it's worth pointing out that the West has experienced at least one catastrophic collapse in the past, and after a few hundred years, managed to drag itself out of that. This is not particularly encouraging, though.
Which catastrophic collapse in the West do you mean in particular? The Fall/Decline of Rome perhaps?
Maia
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Re: Decline of the West???

Post by Maia »

Wizard22 wrote: Sun May 28, 2023 7:57 am
Maia wrote: Sun May 28, 2023 7:04 amAs a student of history the evidence of decline is everywhere, but it's worth pointing out that the West has experienced at least one catastrophic collapse in the past, and after a few hundred years, managed to drag itself out of that. This is not particularly encouraging, though.
Which catastrophic collapse in the West do you mean in particular? The Fall/Decline of Rome perhaps?
Yes, that's the big one. It wasn't just one event, but it was very real nevertheless.
Wizard22
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Re: Decline of the West???

Post by Wizard22 »

Iwannaplato wrote: Sun May 28, 2023 7:44 amI'd shift my response to the side of those. I'd say that the most important thing is that the utterly buffered class no longer needs nations or workers in the way they did before. So, apart from the nurturing of a culture war as distraction, they are removing the middle class, increasing everyone's bills and state of being surveilled, and destroying all supportive institutions. I get the sense they either they have to move to open dystopia and/or technology now makes this easier and/or this is partly an inevitable unfolding from sicknesses already in place.

Should the West ascend? Automatically, people want their own society/tribe/country/party to ascend, but why? Why is your group better than..."the East" for example? Why should "Westerners" rule-over the globe, the East?
The West and the East are looking more and more like each other in terms of elite rule.
Everything has become globalized/americanized/internationalized. Should people return to Nationalism, small concentrated power in the hands of a few countries, over many others? Are the American-Anglos still in charge, or has another Tribe taken over, taken the reigns? Who "deserves" to be in charge, if not the current "powers that be"?
Nation states were, at one time, as unnatural conglomerations as globalization patterns are. The faster, broader technology got, the more able power players were able to have larger conglomerations for their own benefit. So, ya, in nation states compared with the ultimate nation state of a global government are preferable, but not as the return of noble entities, but as lesser evils.
So the rich get richer and the poor... also get richer? But the middle class is fucked. The decline is visible in the middle only. Is this your position?

I'm inclined to agree with that. Here in the US, the poor are very well taken care of, receiving government welfare, drugs, tents to park on the streets and sidewalks, everything to cater to their addictions and blight. The rich become so wealthy that average people can't even fathom the numbers and power. But everybody else... is in trouble. I think this might be consistent throughout Western civilization, especially as these market fluctuations and bank failures gain momentum.
Iwannaplato
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Re: Decline of the West???

Post by Iwannaplato »

Wizard22 wrote: Sun May 28, 2023 8:06 am So the rich get richer and the poor... We've also get richer? But the middle class is fucked. The decline is visible in the middle only. Is this your position?
Oh, no, the poor are getting poorer. we've got tent cities in places in the US where there were none before. Large swathes of homeless. And Europe si showing signs of heading into the developing nation status, with monthly bills hurting middle classes downward.
I'm inclined to agree with that. Here in the US, the poor are very well taken care of, receiving government welfare, drugs, tents to park on the streets and sidewalks, everything to cater to their addictions and blight.
Not what I see. And some of their addictions are worse than earlier ones. Also those tent cities are getting new middle class members. I'm not over there but from what I can see the poor are not going fine and there are more of them.
The rich become so wealthy that average people can't even fathom the numbers and power. But everybody else... is in trouble. I think this might be consistent throughout Western civilization, especially as these market fluctuations and bank failures gain momentum.
Agreed. And I think there is a small portion of the rich who are really sailing into heaven.
Wizard22
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Re: Decline of the West???

Post by Wizard22 »

Maia wrote: Sun May 28, 2023 8:00 amYes, that's the big one. It wasn't just one event, but it was very real nevertheless.
What should be done about it?
Maia
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Re: Decline of the West???

Post by Maia »

Wizard22 wrote: Sun May 28, 2023 10:08 am
Maia wrote: Sun May 28, 2023 8:00 amYes, that's the big one. It wasn't just one event, but it was very real nevertheless.
What should be done about it?
I doubt if anything can be done about it.
Wizard22
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Re: Decline of the West???

Post by Wizard22 »

Iwannaplato wrote: Sun May 28, 2023 9:59 amAgreed. And I think there is a small portion of the rich who are really sailing into heaven.
Literally, they're heading into space before everybody else.

I do believe there will be some pockets of prosperity in the world to come. But it seems, from the Western standpoint, things have definitely stagnated.

Personally, I remember eating food and at restaurants in the 90s. Food tasted a lot better back then. I think there's a decline in average food quality.
Wizard22
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Re: Decline of the West???

Post by Wizard22 »

Maia wrote: Sun May 28, 2023 10:09 amI doubt if anything can be done about it.
Quite pessimistic, no? Hopefully your mood changes for the better!
Maia
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Re: Decline of the West???

Post by Maia »

Wizard22 wrote: Sun May 28, 2023 10:11 am
Maia wrote: Sun May 28, 2023 10:09 amI doubt if anything can be done about it.
Quite pessimistic, no? Hopefully your mood changes for the better!
The Romans tried, but everything they did made it worse. I'm thinking of the reforms of Diocletian, for example.
Iwannaplato
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Re: Decline of the West???

Post by Iwannaplato »

Wizard22 wrote: Sun May 28, 2023 10:10 am Literally, they're heading into space before everybody else.
Some of them are certainly planning to. They are cut off from their mother. They are homeless in the spiritual moral sense, though obviously not in the literal house owning sense. They trash things wherever they go and throw it away. They certainly look down on everyone else whom they consider trash, not wanting to notice they are only partially human.
I do believe there will be some pockets of prosperity in the world to come. But it seems, from the Western standpoint, things have definitely stagnated.
In general I don't see, for example, the Russians or the Chinese having much to offer most people in their countries either.
Personally, I remember eating food and at restaurants in the 90s. Food tasted a lot better back then. I think there's a decline in average food quality.
Soil quality has been going down. And now with the way they are dealing with food supplies and with the prices of foods so high, it will only get worse for those fortunate enough to be able to eat out at sitdown restaurants. The rest will have to start scouring discount supermarkets for deals and going to soup kitchens, bying 50lb bags of rice or potatoes. Oil prices are going to head up, given energy policies and this will raise the prices of everything.

I do see some countertrends. There is wider skeptical of all parties, for example. And the BS comes out into the light much quicker now. It is not effectively stopping the power grabs and shifts, but I do see these as countertrend that might reach tipping points.

But on the surface things are really quite ugly and heading towards uglier.
Wizard22
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Re: Decline of the West???

Post by Wizard22 »

Maia wrote: Sun May 28, 2023 10:12 amThe Romans tried, but everything they did made it worse. I'm thinking of the reforms of Diocletian, for example.
It seems when Civilizations reach their apex, the wealthy, elite, and rich class focus on maintaining their political power and assets rather than looking "forward into the future" for more opportunities and prosperity. People then turn on each-other. Infighting occurs. People divide themselves into sub-cultures and cult followings. Hence the 'Trump' phenomenon in the US.

The optimism of the 1990s America, I certainly miss that feeling. I suppose you're too young to remember or have experienced such.
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