In The News

How should society be organised, if at all?

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promethean75
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Re: In The News

Post by promethean75 »

if u aks me, i dont trust cohen anymore than i trust the orange man. in fact, i don't trust anybody in a suit and tie that i see on my TV.

verily, i do not concern myself with matters, the legitimacy of which, can only be determined by weighing the testimony of one guy in a suit and tie against the testimony of another guy in a suit and tie, and pass indifferently therefore, before them. for trifles involving guys in suits and ties can only be insipid, tedious, without scruples and entirely devoid of any merit.
Gary Childress
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Re: In The News

Post by Gary Childress »

Sculptor wrote: Mon Mar 20, 2023 1:48 pm
Gary Childress wrote: Mon Mar 20, 2023 1:43 pm
mickthinks wrote: Mon Mar 20, 2023 11:19 am The “evidence” is non-existent ...

It's your inquiry into the evidence that is non-existent, Walker. You are deaf and blind to your man's iniquity.
  • Trump paid a sex worker $130 000 through an intermediary.
  • He falsely recorded that in his records as a payment to the intermediary.
Falsification of business records can get you four years in Sing Sing. Your man might not be sent to prison, of course, but he's going to have a hard time arguing he's not guilty.
By far the biggest criminal who ever set foot in the White House was George W. Bush. People even elected him to a second term after his crime. Falsifying business records is amateur stuff compared to what the Bush administration did. Walker has a valid point in that Trump is being fanatically attacked by the media and those in power, whereas no such ruckus has yet to be stirred over George W. Bush. No one has taken him to court for anything that I'm aware of. Surely someone could find a few thousand dollars worth of tax evasion somewhere on the part of Bush or people in his administration responsible for the invasions of Iraq and Afghanistan? Let alone hold him accountable for the crimes against humanity he perpetrated while in office.

Seriously, it's time to hold the Bush administration accountable. Trump is a petty criminal by comparison and the justice department is spending god knows how much on pursuing Trump.
Insurrection is not "petty".
Fair point, however an angry mob storming the Capitol building (taking into consideration all that has happened to the American people at the hands of our own leaders since 2001) still pales in comparison to the death and destruction wrought by the invasions of Iraq and Afghanistan and people out there know it. Those in power are egregious hypocrites not to drop everything they're doing right now and bring the people responsible for the illegal invasions of Iraq and Afghanistan to justice. I don't know where Walker stands on something like that, but he's free to post his position on it if he wishes. Perhaps it would clarify better what his point in defending Trump is all about.
Gary Childress
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Re: In The News

Post by Gary Childress »

promethean75 wrote: Mon Mar 20, 2023 1:53 pm if u aks me, i dont trust cohen anymore than i trust the orange man. in fact, i don't trust anybody in a suit and tie that i see on my TV.

verily, i do not concern myself with matters, the legitimacy of which, can only be determined by weighing the testimony of one guy in a suit and tie against the testimony of another guy in a suit and tie, and pass indifferently therefore, before them. for trifles involving guys in suits and ties can only be insipid, tedious, without scruples and entirely devoid of any merit.
I agree.
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Sculptor
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Re: In The News

Post by Sculptor »

Gary Childress wrote: Mon Mar 20, 2023 2:02 pm
Sculptor wrote: Mon Mar 20, 2023 1:48 pm
Gary Childress wrote: Mon Mar 20, 2023 1:43 pm

By far the biggest criminal who ever set foot in the White House was George W. Bush. People even elected him to a second term after his crime. Falsifying business records is amateur stuff compared to what the Bush administration did. Walker has a valid point in that Trump is being fanatically attacked by the media and those in power, whereas no such ruckus has yet to be stirred over George W. Bush. No one has taken him to court for anything that I'm aware of. Surely someone could find a few thousand dollars worth of tax evasion somewhere on the part of Bush or people in his administration responsible for the invasions of Iraq and Afghanistan? Let alone hold him accountable for the crimes against humanity he perpetrated while in office.

Seriously, it's time to hold the Bush administration accountable. Trump is a petty criminal by comparison and the justice department is spending god knows how much on pursuing Trump.
Insurrection is not "petty".
Fair point, however an angry mob storming the Capitol building (taking into consideration all that has happened to the American people at the hands of our own leaders since 2001) still pales in comparison to the death and destruction wrought by the invasions of Iraq and Afghanistan and people out there know it. Those in power are egregious hypocrites not to drop everything they're doing right now and bring the people responsible for the illegal invasions of Iraq and Afghanistan to justice. I don't know where Walker stands on something like that, but he's free to post his position on it if he wishes. Perhaps it would clarify better what his point in defending Trump is all about.
I don't think Walker has a very cogent grip on reality when it comes to Trump.
It's not like Trump did anything to hold Bush responsible for any wrongdoing, being obsessed with Hilary "Lock her Up" Clinton.
When ti comes to Trump there is an insidious and dangerous tribalism which blinds MAGA folk to the most basic truths.
Invasions of Afghanistan and Iraq may well be illegal, but sine nothing was done about America's other crimes since 1945 we can only expet more of the same.
How about he illegal bombing of Laos which left millions of unexploded bomblets, which are sill killing and maiming (most children) to this day. What has been the US's response Denial; followed by grudging acceptance followed by theatrical but woefully inadequate assistance.
SHall we talk about the toppling of democratically elected leaders which were replaced by CIA backed dictatorships?; Chile 09/11/1973 (Chile's 9/11 led to more hardships and deaths that the fall of the twin towers; Iranian coup 1953; destructions of Vietnam, Cambodia; invasion of Granada, Cuba ad infinitem....
This is the US's relationship with the world. And you might say the relationship with its own citizens is pretty damn poor too. highest incarceration rate; poor health; high cost of medicines; poor education; extreme and growing inequality.
Americans have a right to be mad, sadly they are mostly too stupid to figure it out, and so their saviour Trump is a goddam crook in the pay of the mob, full of sound bites designed to raise the rabble.
There is a difference between draining the swamp and just taking a dump in it every day for his whole term.
mickthinks
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Re: In The News

Post by mickthinks »

Gary Childress wrote: Mon Mar 20, 2023 1:43 pmBy far the biggest criminal who ever set foot in the White House was George W. Bush.
I disagree, but let's not go off topic, eh?
Gary Childress
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Re: In The News

Post by Gary Childress »

mickthinks wrote: Mon Mar 20, 2023 8:55 pm
Gary Childress wrote: Mon Mar 20, 2023 1:43 pmBy far the biggest criminal who ever set foot in the White House was George W. Bush.
I disagree, but let's not go off topic, eh?
Why do you disagree with that?
promethean75
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Re: In The News

Post by promethean75 »

I actually thought about it and I'd like to exclude meteorologists from that guy in the suit and tie on TV category I established earlier. Really a meteorologist has no reason to lie to u. He may be mistaken about what he says will happen, but he wouldn't be lying to u in doing so.

Second to him would be the general news anchor, but this type will plant little misleading ad hominem remarks in their narrative to persuade the listener toward which ever side the network is endorsed by (Dems or Reps) when speaking about, for example, Santos... wait actually that's a bad example, that guy really IS an asshole. But u know what I mean; under the table shots at conservatives and republicans on CNN and vice versa on Fox.
mickthinks
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Re: In The News

Post by mickthinks »

Gary Childress wrote: Mon Mar 20, 2023 10:04 pm
mickthinks wrote: Mon Mar 20, 2023 8:55 pmI disagree, but let's not go off topic, eh?
Why do you disagree with that?
... er, that's what I mean by going off topic.
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FlashDangerpants
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Re: In The News

Post by FlashDangerpants »

Gary Childress wrote: Mon Mar 20, 2023 10:04 pm
mickthinks wrote: Mon Mar 20, 2023 8:55 pm
Gary Childress wrote: Mon Mar 20, 2023 1:43 pmBy far the biggest criminal who ever set foot in the White House was George W. Bush.
I disagree, but let's not go off topic, eh?
Why do you disagree with that?
Because Andrew Jackson did an actual genocide perhaps?
Or Andrew Johnson made it his mission to Make America Racist Again directly after Lincoln was shot?

None of which alters the fact that your whataboutism is irrelevant. You should probably be opposed to the guy who tried to overthrow your democracy even if you think some other guy was bad as well. More than one person at a time can be the bad guy.
Gary Childress
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Re: In The News

Post by Gary Childress »

mickthinks wrote: Mon Mar 20, 2023 10:22 pm
Gary Childress wrote: Mon Mar 20, 2023 10:04 pm
mickthinks wrote: Mon Mar 20, 2023 8:55 pmI disagree, but let's not go off topic, eh?
Why do you disagree with that?
... er, that's what I mean by going off topic.
I don't see it as "off-topic". We're talking about politics. Just about anything is fair game in a discussion about Trump. He's as much a sign of the times and everything that led up to his day in the spotlight. Had there been no invasions, I'm sure the US and the global economy wouldn't be in the crisis we're in right now.
promethean75
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Re: In The News

Post by promethean75 »

I agree, as an egoist anarchist anarcho-capitalist.
Gary Childress
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Re: In The News

Post by Gary Childress »

FlashDangerpants wrote: Mon Mar 20, 2023 10:41 pm
Gary Childress wrote: Mon Mar 20, 2023 10:04 pm
mickthinks wrote: Mon Mar 20, 2023 8:55 pm

I disagree, but let's not go off topic, eh?
Why do you disagree with that?
Because Andrew Jackson did an actual genocide perhaps?
Or Andrew Johnson made it his mission to Make America Racist Again directly after Lincoln was shot?

None of which alters the fact that your whataboutism is irrelevant. You should probably be opposed to the guy who tried to overthrow your democracy even if you think some other guy was bad as well. More than one person at a time can be the bad guy.
OK. Maybe Bush isn't the "biggest" criminal in US history to sit in the White House. However, no one from the Jackson administration is presumably alive right now to account for anything. Bush is alive and kicking and probably living reasonably well (though with a few pangs of remorse maybe for what he did) on a President's pension, putting his kids through college so they can have a chance at the reigns of power someday while homeless, guilt ridden Vets and Afghani and Iraqi civilians mill about on street corners with PTSD or worse. Heck, Brett Kavanaugh, a sitting Justice on the SCOTUS apparently helped draft some of the apologetics for the Bush administration's actions later on. Bring the whole administration and whoever in the CIA who told them Iraq had WMDs to justice. Let's get to the bottom of who is responsible and who isn't for those atrocities.

And Trump's most serious crime (the one which Washington elites are actually bothered by) is that he rocked the boat with NATO and China relations and had generally more isolationist or "mind our own business" tendencies in terms of foreign policy. Let's face it, the Democrats wouldn't care about the Jan 6 incident if the people storming the Capitol were protesting rights to an abortion, transgender or women's rights. They'd be clamoring at how "insensitive" Republicans were in accusing them of participating in an "insurrection."
mickthinks
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Re: In The News

Post by mickthinks »

Gary Childress wrote: Mon Mar 20, 2023 11:04 pmTrump...'s as much a sign of the times and everything that led up to his day in the spotlight.
The US is in a political crisis, and Trump is* the face of that crisis. Deflecting away from Trump is deflecting away from the crisis. I don't want to do that.


*Granted, the crisis may swap Trump's face for De Santis's or one of any number of others in the future, but for now it's Trump
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FlashDangerpants
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Re: In The News

Post by FlashDangerpants »

Gary Childress wrote: Tue Mar 21, 2023 2:50 am
FlashDangerpants wrote: Mon Mar 20, 2023 10:41 pm
Gary Childress wrote: Mon Mar 20, 2023 10:04 pm

Why do you disagree with that?
Because Andrew Jackson did an actual genocide perhaps?
Or Andrew Johnson made it his mission to Make America Racist Again directly after Lincoln was shot?

None of which alters the fact that your whataboutism is irrelevant. You should probably be opposed to the guy who tried to overthrow your democracy even if you think some other guy was bad as well. More than one person at a time can be the bad guy.
OK. Maybe Bush isn't the "biggest" criminal in US history to sit in the White House. However, no one from the Jackson administration is presumably alive right now to account for anything. Bush is alive and kicking and probably living reasonably well (though with a few pangs of remorse maybe for what he did) on a President's pension, putting his kids through college so they can have a chance at the reigns of power someday while homeless, guilt ridden Vets and Afghani and Iraqi civilians mill about on street corners with PTSD or worse. Heck, Brett Kavanaugh, a sitting Justice on the SCOTUS apparently helped draft some of the apologetics for the Bush administration's actions later on. Bring the whole administration and whoever in the CIA who told them Iraq had WMDs to justice. Let's get to the bottom of who is responsible and who isn't for those atrocities.
You live in Florida, right? If so your state governor used to be a lawyer for the Nazy at Guantanamo where he stood and watched people getting tortured before signing off documents to insist they were merely interrogated with gusto. You can start with him if you like. Or you can drop the whataboutism, it's kind of time for you to grow out of that.
Gary Childress wrote: Tue Mar 21, 2023 2:50 am And Trump's most serious crime (the one which Washington elites are actually bothered by) is that he rocked the boat with NATO and China relations and had generally more isolationist or "mind our own business" tendencies in terms of foreign policy.
The Russia thing wasn't a hoax, China gained concessions by being nice to his children, and his son in law sold a list of future murder victims to the Saudis in return for a 2 billion dollar investment in his real estate business. Trump's corruption, foreign indebtedness, open nepotism, and his willingness to conflate his personal interest with that of the nation are more or less on a par with his open abandonment of the rules based international order for alarming "elites".

But be real, that guy did and said at least 3 unthinkable things before breakfast every day. He's an obvious narcissist and a known drug addict and it insane that you people keep trying so hard not to see these things.
Gary Childress wrote: Tue Mar 21, 2023 2:50 am Let's face it, the Democrats wouldn't care about the Jan 6 incident if the people storming the Capitol were protesting rights to an abortion, transgender or women's rights. They'd be clamoring at how "insensitive" Republicans were in accusing them of participating in an "insurrection."
Nobody else would have been met with so little police resistance. If BLM had turned up wanting to storm the Capitol the national guard would have been there.

But anybody storming your parliament is equally bad, and it is kind of bizarre how you have rationalised it into just one of those things that anybody might do.
Gary Childress
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Re: In The News

Post by Gary Childress »

FlashDangerpants wrote: Tue Mar 21, 2023 10:46 am You live in Florida, right? If so your state governor used to be a lawyer for the Nazy at Guantanamo where he stood and watched people getting tortured before signing off documents to insist they were merely interrogated with gusto. You can start with him if you like.
Sure. The fact that that isn't even a news item for the mainstream press, that he is complicit in that capacity for the Guantnamo atrocity needs to come out. I wasn't aware of it. I've never voted for the guy. And it's not going to come out unless someone engages in "whataboutism". Let's air out the laundry before it's allowed to sit and get moldy.

As far as Trump, sure, he's been a terrible President but thanks to his Laurel and Hardy antics, the real emperor of America is no longer wearing the invisible cloak it once was. It's become painfully clear from what has happened to him, vs what hasn't happened to past Presidents who've been responsible for much more horrendous things, that there really is something not right in the mechanisms of our democracy.

Regarding BLM, yes. If it were BLM out there they probably would have put out more security, possibly. But since BLM protests have regularly ended in violence it would probably be a rational move. They thought that the mostly white crowd wasn't going to be a problem because usually, we aren't. They were wrong. It's taken a while but Whites have finally gotten wind of what is going on thanks to Charlie Chaplin Trump.
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