woke

How should society be organised, if at all?

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Age
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Re: woke

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Immanuel Can wrote: Wed Feb 22, 2023 10:02 pm
commonsense wrote: Wed Feb 22, 2023 8:55 pm How do you know what you know and why do you believe what you believe?
Well, if left to ourselves, neither you nor I nor anybody else would be in a position to say, obviously. Unless God makes it known, in some form, we're never going to know about Him. So the question becomes, "Has God spoken, and if so, where?" That's step 1.

But if we're going to continue in that vein, we should move to the "Christianity" thread. This one's about Wokeness, and I'm reluctant to hijack it.
Here is ANOTHER PRIME EXAMPLE of just being asked a VERY SIMPLE and STRAIGHTFORWARD QUESTION, for CLARITY, and the ACTUAL QUESTION being COMPLETELY DISMISSED, and ATTEMPTED to be COMPLETELY DEFLECTED.

Also,

1. EVERY 'thing' is being MADE KNOWN, by God if you like.

2. God is NOT, and NEVER could be, a 'him' nor a 'Him' no matter HOW MANY TIMES you keep TELLING us God is "immanuel can".

3. God is SPEAKING, and ALL OF THE TIME. you are just NOT HEARING, NOR even LISTENING. But the way to LISTEN and HEAR, and SEE, is just ANOTHER 'thing' being MADE KNOWN but which you are YET TO LEARN, and UNDERSTAND.

4. WHERE God is SPEAKING IS, WITH-IN, ALWAYS. And WHERE the PROOF is WITH-OUT your BELIEFS and ASSUMPTIONS.

So, that is the so-called 'step 1' over and done with, FINALLY.

Let us, now, MOVE ALONG.
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Immanuel Can
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Re: woke

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Gary Childress wrote: Thu Feb 23, 2023 6:06 am NOTHING we have tried (with our greatest ingenuity) is working to fix this world.
That's very true. Our powers to fix the problems we've caused are not as great as our powers to invent trouble. It was not God who invented the combustion engine, nor the lab in Wuhan, nor the nuclear armaments that now threaten our globe again. Did you need more proof that man is not good, not morally in the right place, not in fellowship with the Creator, than that man has found multiple ways to destroy the entire planet, and with it, all of humanity itself?

But when you get to berating the God, in whom you do not believe, perhaps you should also get to recognizing what man himself, in whom you do believe, is doing. And ask yourself why you imagine that a system that puts all things in man's unrestrained hands (i.e. Socialism) is likely to be any curative for what's wrong with the world.
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Re: woke

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Immanuel Can wrote: Thu Feb 23, 2023 2:32 pm
Gary Childress wrote: Thu Feb 23, 2023 6:06 am NOTHING we have tried (with our greatest ingenuity) is working to fix this world.
That's very true. Our powers to fix the problems we've caused are not as great as our powers to invent trouble. It was not God who invented the combustion engine, nor the lab in Wuhan, nor the nuclear armaments that now threaten our globe again. Did you need more proof that man is not good, not morally in the right place, not in fellowship with the Creator, than that man has found multiple ways to destroy the entire planet, and with it, all of humanity itself?

But when you get to berating the God, in whom you do not believe, perhaps you should also get to recognizing what man himself, in whom you do believe, is doing. And ask yourself why you imagine that a system that puts all things in man's unrestrained hands (i.e. Socialism) is likely to be any curative for what's wrong with the world.
We try to make things for the better to the best of our ability. However, our problems are insoluble. Look at the environment. If humans are to blame for creating enormous waste that needs to be disposed of, then what's the alternative? If carbon emissions are potentially causing conditions that could be catastrophic to humans, then what is the alternative? If feeding the poor only makes them dependent and allowing them to starve only creates corpses, then what's the alternative?
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Re: woke

Post by Immanuel Can »

Gary Childress wrote: Thu Feb 23, 2023 2:41 pm
Immanuel Can wrote: Thu Feb 23, 2023 2:32 pm
Gary Childress wrote: Thu Feb 23, 2023 6:06 am NOTHING we have tried (with our greatest ingenuity) is working to fix this world.
That's very true. Our powers to fix the problems we've caused are not as great as our powers to invent trouble. It was not God who invented the combustion engine, nor the lab in Wuhan, nor the nuclear armaments that now threaten our globe again. Did you need more proof that man is not good, not morally in the right place, not in fellowship with the Creator, than that man has found multiple ways to destroy the entire planet, and with it, all of humanity itself?

But when you get to berating the God, in whom you do not believe, perhaps you should also get to recognizing what man himself, in whom you do believe, is doing. And ask yourself why you imagine that a system that puts all things in man's unrestrained hands (i.e. Socialism) is likely to be any curative for what's wrong with the world.
We try to make things for the better to the best of our ability.
Our "ability" is very low, and our ability to destroy is much higher. But we've made most of our own problems.
If feeding the poor only makes them dependent and allowing them to starve only creates corpses, then what's the alternative?
Microenterprise, actually. Empower the poor to have alternatives of a "capitalist" sort, and they get themselves out of poverty in one generation.

That method works: and until COVID, it was producing a rapid improvement in the conditions in the Developing World, and actually conquering poverty. But our Globalist governments shut it down and started ruining the world economy, in the name of fending off a virus that they had invented themselves. So again, mankind makes its own problems, then makes them worse.

How is Socialism, meaning handing more things over to venial humans, going to fix what's wrong with mankind? Mankind IS the problem. :shock:
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Re: woke

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Immanuel Can wrote: Thu Feb 23, 2023 2:49 pm
Gary Childress wrote: Thu Feb 23, 2023 2:41 pm
Immanuel Can wrote: Thu Feb 23, 2023 2:32 pm
That's very true. Our powers to fix the problems we've caused are not as great as our powers to invent trouble. It was not God who invented the combustion engine, nor the lab in Wuhan, nor the nuclear armaments that now threaten our globe again. Did you need more proof that man is not good, not morally in the right place, not in fellowship with the Creator, than that man has found multiple ways to destroy the entire planet, and with it, all of humanity itself?

But when you get to berating the God, in whom you do not believe, perhaps you should also get to recognizing what man himself, in whom you do believe, is doing. And ask yourself why you imagine that a system that puts all things in man's unrestrained hands (i.e. Socialism) is likely to be any curative for what's wrong with the world.
We try to make things for the better to the best of our ability.
Our "ability" is very low, and our ability to destroy is much higher. But we've made most of our own problems.
If feeding the poor only makes them dependent and allowing them to starve only creates corpses, then what's the alternative?
Microenterprise, actually. Empower the poor to have alternatives of a "capitalist" sort, and they get themselves out of poverty in one generation.

That method works: and until COVID, it was producing a rapid improvement in the conditions in the Developing World, and actually conquering poverty. But our Globalist governments shut it down and started ruining the world economy, in the name of fending off a virus that they had invented themselves. So again, mankind makes its own problems, then makes them worse.

How is Socialism, meaning handing more things over to venial humans, going to fix what's wrong with mankind? Mankind IS the problem. :shock:
"Microenterprise" seems to be a fragile and artificial state of affairs at best. Capitalism as traditionally defined is the private accumulation of wealth and power as opposed to some sort of democratic administration by all citizens over those things. That's all it means. When wealth and power are allowed to concentrate the first thing the wealthy and powerful do is use that wealth and power to try to protect or consolidate their status--perhaps understandable in ways. Whether it's buying up smaller competitors or blocking them out of the market through the lobbying of preventive regulation they have means at their disposal. Of course, regulation is also how people are protected to some degree from bad or dishonest business so it's a double-edged sword. It's the same with trade. If a country wants free trade, then that's great until the wealth starts to flow in only one direction. Then there are tariffs. Of course, tariffs can also be used to consolidate an advantage of a stronger economic entity.

The world is full of double-edged swords and the only thing those swords seem to do is draw blood. Look at defense spending the more someone spends, the more insecure others feel and therefore the more everyone spends. Where does the cycle stop? Well, maybe you're ultimately right. Maybe it stops with faith in God. If everyone could come together in some sort of common faith that was inclusive instead of divisive, then maybe there would be less insanity.
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Re: woke

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Gary Childress wrote: Thu Feb 23, 2023 3:17 pm "Microenterprise" seems to be a fragile and artificial state of affairs at best.
No, it's not. It's really successful and really durable...amazingly so. It takes the sort of direct meddling from the government, particularly the global power-players to ruin it. While these power-players were out of the loop, it was becoming so successful that it was actually wiping out world poverty. If only we could avoid the sort of Socialist Globalism that is currently being practiced, a whole lot more people would soon be able to feed their families, get basic medicine, access education, get minimal sanitation, and so on.

A lot of people don't know that. They don't realize that prior to the COVID crisis, the poverty rate in the world was actually shrinking drastically. We were winning...slower than we'd like, but we'd found the right sort of strategy to beat global poverty. Here's a report from one of the most wildly Leftist sources you could possibily find, saying essentially the same thing: https://www.worldbank.org/en/news/press ... -to-a-halt

But we're busy ruining that, by interfering at the global level.
Capitalism as traditionally defined is the private accumulation of wealth and power as opposed to some sort of democratic administration by all citizens over those things. That's all it means.
Well, that's naive. And it's the Marxist take on things, which has never been right.

There's no such thing as "Capitialism," really; because -ism's are ideologies, like "Marxism." What we should be talking about is free, democratic access to markets. One needs no particular ideology to believe in such freedom. One simply needs to be secure and left alone to take one's opportunities.
Of course, regulation is also how people are protected to some degree from bad or dishonest business
Perhaps it used to be. But nowadays, it's how the pseudo-Socialist elite legislates to as to eradicate small business and free enterprise, and force us into globalization and poverty.

Tarrifs used to work somewhat when we had fixed national boundaries and national economies that could be closed or opened. We no longer have those, we are told. So tarrifs are a bit of a dinosaur, nowadays.
Where does the cycle stop? Well, maybe you're ultimately right. Maybe it stops with faith in God. If everyone could come together in some sort of common faith that was inclusive instead of divisive, then maybe there would be less insanity.
Maybe. But it would have to be something in which people could freely believe, and could freely opt not to believe, as well. Will human beings voluntarily agree to something like that? I think not. Should it be forced upon them, then? Definitely not.

Locke was right: our primary right is the right to freedom of conscience. It comes even before free speech (though closely allied to it). People must be allowed to choose what they will and will not believe freely. But all such freedoms come with responsibility, and all such choices come with consequences. There's no escaping that.

Thus, instead of focusing on the big, global problems, over which you and I have no control whatsoever, and will never be granted any, we ought to look to ourselves, and to the choices we, personally, are making.
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Re: woke

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Immanuel Can wrote: Thu Feb 23, 2023 4:04 pm Thus, instead of focusing on the big, global problems, over which you and I have no control whatsoever, and will never be granted any, we ought to look to ourselves, and to the choices we, personally, are making.
Let's both continue to do that, then.
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Re: woke

Post by Immanuel Can »

Gary Childress wrote: Thu Feb 23, 2023 4:23 pm
Immanuel Can wrote: Thu Feb 23, 2023 4:04 pm Thus, instead of focusing on the big, global problems, over which you and I have no control whatsoever, and will never be granted any, we ought to look to ourselves, and to the choices we, personally, are making.
Let's both continue to do that, then.
I'm good with that.

The Woke Socialists are not good with you and me focusing on ourselves, though. They want control. That's why they insist, "The personal is the political." It means, "We get to mess with your private life, and you don't get to protest."
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Re: woke

Post by Gary Childress »

Immanuel Can wrote: Thu Feb 23, 2023 6:22 pm
Gary Childress wrote: Thu Feb 23, 2023 4:23 pm
Immanuel Can wrote: Thu Feb 23, 2023 4:04 pm Thus, instead of focusing on the big, global problems, over which you and I have no control whatsoever, and will never be granted any, we ought to look to ourselves, and to the choices we, personally, are making.
Let's both continue to do that, then.
I'm good with that.

The Woke Socialists are not good with you and me focusing on ourselves, though. They want control. That's why they insist, "The personal is the political." It means, "We get to mess with your private life, and you don't get to protest."
Sounds good. :idea:
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Re: woke

Post by Immanuel Can »

Gary Childress wrote: Thu Feb 23, 2023 6:32 pm
Immanuel Can wrote: Thu Feb 23, 2023 6:22 pm
Gary Childress wrote: Thu Feb 23, 2023 4:23 pm

Let's both continue to do that, then.
I'm good with that.

The Woke Socialists are not good with you and me focusing on ourselves, though. They want control. That's why they insist, "The personal is the political." It means, "We get to mess with your private life, and you don't get to protest."
Sounds good. :idea:
Well, since the Wokies won't leave us alone, we're not going to have the luxury of simply focusing on ourselves. We're going to have to object to their projects and their foolish ideas, or we'll end up allowing their program to run.

Don't let the crazy people drive the train. We'll end up where we really, really don't want to be.
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Re: woke

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Immanuel Can wrote: Thu Feb 23, 2023 6:39 pm
Well, since the Wokies won't leave us alone,
They seem to be leaving me alone. Should I feel snubbed? :|
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Re: woke

Post by Immanuel Can »

Harbal wrote: Thu Feb 23, 2023 6:44 pm
Immanuel Can wrote: Thu Feb 23, 2023 6:39 pm
Well, since the Wokies won't leave us alone,
They seem to be leaving me alone. Should I feel snubbed? :|
Probably.

But don't worry...they'll soon get ahold of all the systems upon which your life depends, such as health, education, transportation, economics, access to technology, the justice system, social security, foodstocks, and so forth, and then you'll feel their interest in you more keenly.

Just give it time.
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Re: woke

Post by BigMike »

Immanuel Can wrote: Thu Feb 23, 2023 6:39 pm
Gary Childress wrote: Thu Feb 23, 2023 6:32 pm
Immanuel Can wrote: Thu Feb 23, 2023 6:22 pm
I'm good with that.

The Woke Socialists are not good with you and me focusing on ourselves, though. They want control. That's why they insist, "The personal is the political." It means, "We get to mess with your private life, and you don't get to protest."
Sounds good. :idea:
Well, since the Wokies won't leave us alone, we're not going to have the luxury of simply focusing on ourselves. We're going to have to object to their projects and their foolish ideas, or we'll end up allowing their program to run.

Don't let the crazy people drive the train. We'll end up where we really, really don't want to be.
It's important to approach disagreements and conflicts with a calm and rational mindset. Avoid name-calling or personal attacks, and instead focus on discussing the specific issues at hand. Try to understand the other person's perspective and listen actively to their concerns.

If you find that you cannot come to an agreement or compromise, consider seeking the assistance of a neutral third party, such as a mediator or arbitrator. These individuals can help facilitate productive discussions and work towards a mutually agreeable solution.

Remember that it's possible to disagree with someone without demonizing or dehumanizing them. It's important to maintain civility and respect, even in the midst of passionate disagreements.
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Harbal
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Re: woke

Post by Harbal »

Immanuel Can wrote: Thu Feb 23, 2023 7:08 pm
Harbal wrote: Thu Feb 23, 2023 6:44 pm
Immanuel Can wrote: Thu Feb 23, 2023 6:39 pm
Well, since the Wokies won't leave us alone,
They seem to be leaving me alone. Should I feel snubbed? :|
Probably.

But don't worry...they'll soon get ahold of all the systems upon which your life depends, such as health, education, transportation, economics, access to technology, the justice system, social security, foodstocks, and so forth, and then you'll feel their interest in you more keenly.

Just give it time.
Oh my dear Lord! :shock: Is there nothing we can do to prevent it? Please tell me there is something. :|
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Re: woke

Post by Immanuel Can »

Harbal wrote: Thu Feb 23, 2023 7:33 pm Oh my dear Lord! :shock: Is there nothing we can do to prevent it? Please tell me there is something. :|
Well, we'll see.
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