woke

How should society be organised, if at all?

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Re: woke

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Immanuel Can wrote: Sat Dec 03, 2022 7:16 am
iambiguous wrote: Sat Dec 03, 2022 6:48 am Right. The MAGA crowd not possibly be more diverse in their opinions.
Nobody says that. (Not that MAGA is a group, but never mind: we can let the Leftist trope go unchallenged here.)

But there's all the difference in the world between beliefs freely chosen and those compelled.
Is THREATENING one with an ETERNAL LIFE of HELL, REALLY, ALLOWING that one to FREELY CHOOSE, or is this, REALLY, more like COMPELLING them INTO what to BELIEVE?

'your' ONE-SIDED response here "immanuel can, (if 'you' give one), WILL SHOW and PROVE, FURTHER, just how Truly BLINDED by 'your' OWN BELIEF here 'you' REALLY ARE.
Immanuel Can wrote: Sat Dec 03, 2022 7:16 am
Only liberals compel others to agree with them or else. The conservatives never do that in regard to their own convictions.
That seems to be how it works.

If you disagree with a Leftist, you have your business burned, your children harassed, your reputation destroyed, your social media feeds cut, your character assassinated, your head punched...

If you disagree with a conservative, you get disagreed with.
LOL If this is NOT a PRIME EXAMPLE of just how DISTORTED people's VIEWS were, back then, then I am NOT sure WHERE you would find a BETTER EXAMPLE.

To this one ALL of the people on ONE "side" of 'politics" behaved in ONE way ONLY, and, ALL of the people on the OTHER "side" of 'politics' behaved in ANOTHER way, ONLY. Which, OBVIOUSLY, could NOT be FURTHER REMOVED from what thee ACTUAL IRREFUTABLE Truth of what 'things' WERE REALLY LIKE.
Immanuel Can wrote: Sat Dec 03, 2022 7:16 am
...quoting directly from the Christian Bible...

"John 14:6 Jesus said, “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.”

...that they must accept Jesus Christ as their personal savior to be judged worthy of immortality and salvation in Heaven, they can simply refuse to and face no consequences?
There is no such thing as a decision with no consequences. Only Leftists seem to think there ought to be.
LOL
LOL
LOL

"immanuel can".
Immanuel Can wrote: Sat Dec 03, 2022 7:16 am But you are still not a Christian. So clearly, nobody's forcing you or compelling you.
IF THREATENING someone with DAMNATION, that is; CONDEMNING them to ETERNAL PUNISHMENT in HELL, is NOT 'forcing' NOR is 'compelling' them in one way or another, then what is 'that', EXACTLY?
Immanuel Can wrote: Sat Dec 03, 2022 7:16 am And mention of eternal damnation itself fails to move you.
And here is an example of "minimization" and/or "justification" at its FINEST.
Immanuel Can wrote: Sat Dec 03, 2022 7:16 am So for now, you're just fine...as free as a bird...nothing is compelling you to anything.
So, WHY do 'you' type of people, LAUGHABLY, 'mention' ETERNAL DAMNATION if NOT to influence, guide, NOR compel a person in a CERTAIN WAY?
Immanuel Can wrote: Sat Dec 03, 2022 7:16 am But every decision comes with consequences. And I guess we'll both see if that's true or not.
BUT, LAUGHABLY, 'we' ALREADY KNOW that 'your' INTERPRETATION of ETERNAL DAMNATION is ABSOLUTELY and IRREFUTABLY False, Wrong, AND Incorrect.

SO, what IS ALREADY True has ALREADY BEEN SEEN.
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Immanuel Can
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Re: woke

Post by Immanuel Can »

Iwannaplato wrote: Sat Dec 03, 2022 8:33 am
Immanuel Can wrote: Fri Dec 02, 2022 7:00 pm Wokism emphasizes diversity of appearance, culture and morals, but uniformity of thought. Conservatism (at least the centrist, classical liberal kind), emphasizes diversity of thought, because "free speech" and "freedom of conscience" are central to its program.
That might fly with young people, but I'm old enough to remember when political correctness was conservative.
It can be, if the majority of people in a given area are strongly conservative in some way, and they decide to coordinate their displeasure and politicize it. There's no monopoly on decency, on the Left or on the Right. However, it's certainly not the world of the center-right, the traditional classical "liberals," so called, the sorts of folks who wrote the Constitution and claimed that all men were created equal and endowed with basic rights of freedom. Those people have no hammer in their hands...and never have had.

Such "Right" as you're talking about, such as the Democrat Old South, is long dead. Racism is decried everywhere in the media. Women have more advantages than men, in most fields. Sexual deviancy of all kinds is out in the open, parading in the streets and being celebrated. There's no tyrannical Right today. But I grant you that there could be, were conditions radically different than today.

Today, there's no penalty for being even wildly, insanely Leftist...but punishments for even the slightest expression of doubt about Leftist causes. And largely, the reasons have to do with the collectivist predispositions of Leftism: for Leftism holds that you are not defined by being an individual, but with reference to the "social construction" of your identity, through your various groups...femaleness, gayness, blackness, transness, fatness, or whatever.

At first, Leftism focused its ire against white-middle-class-maleness, against normalcy, against heterosexuality, and against "the establishment." Now it gins up antipathies within and among these groups: white females are now "oppressors," and transers are now seen as "oppressed" or "erased" by gays who deny the need to trans, and blacks are pitted just as vigorously against Koreans and Chinese as against whites. The Left only seems to care that there is foment and revolution -- so long as any existing order is being disrupted, their assumption is that it is good. They really don't care about any of the particular causes. As you can see, they do nothing for the inner-city blacks they have incited to burn their own neighbourhoods, they don't worry that men are dropping out of higher education in droves, and women are now disproportionately dominant there, and they care nothing at all if Harvard has racist discrimination in its admissions policies...so long as it's against Asians.

We might have to remain somewhat vigilant about the possibility of an extreme Right appearing. But it's nowhere visible yet. Today, it's Leftism that has the whole stage, and radical Leftism has the front of the stage. And woe betide anyone who questions their PC narratives.
commonsense
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Re: woke

Post by commonsense »

vegetariantaxidermy wrote: Fri Dec 02, 2022 6:45 pm Dictionary.com :lol:
That 'definition' is full of language bastardisation. When people give THEMSELVES a label that tells everyone else what wonderful human beings they are then it's inevitable that it will become an ironic insult. They are asking for it. Compliments have to come from OTHERS. You can't go around telling people you are 'handsome' or 'beautiful'. People will just laugh and think there is something wrong with you. Einstein didn't go around callling HIMSELF a genius. It was an honour that was bestowed on him by others. Did MLK tell everyone how 'woke' he was? Describe himself as a 'social justice warrior'? Of course not. He had a real cause, a job to do, and just did it.
And yes, conservative yank fuckturds have muddied the waters and called everyone who is left-leaning 'woke', and anyone who is 'woke' a 'leftie', confusing everthing. There's really no hope for the world...
'Wokie' is short, simple, and layered. 'Virtue-signaller' is good but cumbersome, doesn't 'say' as much and is lacking in irony. I'll stick with 'wokie'.
Well done. This is an intelligent and comprehensive posting. It has a bias, but it’s expressed without disdain or disrespect.

As I understand it, the left-wingers want the right-wingers to be tolerant, of left-wingers; and the right-wingers want the left-wingers to follow the norms, of the right-wingers.

Too simple? Perhaps. Nonetheless, a non-reductionist view can be too unwieldy.

As a wokie myself, I take umbrage at the term, and yet I find no insult in the post above. Thank you, V.
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Re: woke

Post by commonsense »

Immanuel Can wrote: Fri Dec 02, 2022 7:00 pm
iambiguous wrote: Fri Dec 02, 2022 6:12 pm From dictionary.com

wokeism:
Usually Disparaging. promotion of liberal progressive ideology and policy as an expression of sensitivity to systemic injustices and prejudices:
"She worked for nearly a decade at the university before she finally tired of the influence of wokeism."
“The only religion allowed around here is wokeism,” he complained.


Okay, but is there or is there not the conservative equivalent of this?
There isn't one, I suspect, for a very simple reason: wokism is collectivist, conservatism is individualistic.
Yes, there is. There’s just no term for it.
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Immanuel Can
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Re: woke

Post by Immanuel Can »

commonsense wrote: Sat Dec 03, 2022 5:41 pm
Immanuel Can wrote: Fri Dec 02, 2022 7:00 pm
iambiguous wrote: Fri Dec 02, 2022 6:12 pm From dictionary.com

wokeism:
Usually Disparaging. promotion of liberal progressive ideology and policy as an expression of sensitivity to systemic injustices and prejudices:
"She worked for nearly a decade at the university before she finally tired of the influence of wokeism."
“The only religion allowed around here is wokeism,” he complained.


Okay, but is there or is there not the conservative equivalent of this?
There isn't one, I suspect, for a very simple reason: wokism is collectivist, conservatism is individualistic.
Yes, there is. There’s just no term for it.
Actually, there isn't.

Point to the "conservative" group that today has any power at all to enforce a political correctness. There's none...at least, none in the developed West. But I can point you to dozens of Leftist groups who employ vicious means to punish dissent, and they all do live in the developed West.
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Re: woke

Post by commonsense »

Immanuel Can wrote: Sat Dec 03, 2022 5:53 pm
commonsense wrote: Sat Dec 03, 2022 5:41 pm
Immanuel Can wrote: Fri Dec 02, 2022 7:00 pm
There isn't one, I suspect, for a very simple reason: wokism is collectivist, conservatism is individualistic.
Yes, there is. There’s just no term for it.
Actually, there isn't.

Point to the "conservative" group that today has any power at all to enforce a political correctness. There's none...at least, none in the developed West. But I can point you to dozens of Leftist groups who employ vicious means to punish dissent, and they all do live in the developed West.
Et vice versa.
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Re: woke

Post by Immanuel Can »

commonsense wrote: Sat Dec 03, 2022 7:46 pm
Immanuel Can wrote: Sat Dec 03, 2022 5:53 pm
commonsense wrote: Sat Dec 03, 2022 5:41 pm

Yes, there is. There’s just no term for it.
Actually, there isn't.

Point to the "conservative" group that today has any power at all to enforce a political correctness. There's none...at least, none in the developed West. But I can point you to dozens of Leftist groups who employ vicious means to punish dissent, and they all do live in the developed West.
Et vice versa.
Easily.

Antifa. BLM. NAMBLA. PETA. The WEF. 3rd Wave Feminism. The LGBT lobby. The public education system. The big unions. University administrations and hiring committees. The legacy media. The Democrats. Disney. Hollywood. The big social media platforms. Cliimate activists. The APA. The New York Times. Personnel departments in big business...

Now, what do you say? Where are the "Right wing" groups that have that sort of power to enforce political correctness? Could you list them? Could you even list plausible ones?
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Re: woke

Post by Gary Childress »

Immanuel Can wrote: Sat Dec 03, 2022 8:02 pm
commonsense wrote: Sat Dec 03, 2022 7:46 pm
Immanuel Can wrote: Sat Dec 03, 2022 5:53 pm
Actually, there isn't.

Point to the "conservative" group that today has any power at all to enforce a political correctness. There's none...at least, none in the developed West. But I can point you to dozens of Leftist groups who employ vicious means to punish dissent, and they all do live in the developed West.
Et vice versa.
Easily.

Antifa. BLM. NAMBLA. PETA. The WEF. 3rd Wave Feminism. The LGBT lobby. The public education system. The big unions. University administrations and hiring committees. The legacy media. The Democrats. Disney. Hollywood. The big social media platforms. Cliimate activists. The APA. The New York Times. Personnel departments in big business...

Now, what do you say? Where are the "Right wing" groups that have that sort of power to enforce political correctness? Could you list them? Could you even list plausible ones?
Those are certainly very politically active groups. Do you dislike them because 1) they arrogantly presume they have the right answers or do you dislike them 2) because you think they have the wrong answers? And if the latter (2), then what are the right answers?

In the end, does it all come down more to who wants to run the show as opposed to what they want to do with it?
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Immanuel Can
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Re: woke

Post by Immanuel Can »

Gary Childress wrote: Sat Dec 03, 2022 8:33 pm Those are certainly very politically active groups. Do you dislike them...
Well, Gary, "like" or "not like" is not the issue.

I'm just asking what "right wing" group would have comparable power.
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Re: woke

Post by iambiguous »

Immanuel Can wrote: Sat Dec 03, 2022 7:16 am
iambiguous wrote: Sat Dec 03, 2022 6:48 am Right. The MAGA crowd could not possibly be more diverse in their opinions. I mean look at the Trump rallies. Bitter factional fights are breaking out in the audience all the time.

But even if there were, they're not "woke" because only the liberals can be that. Only liberals compel others to agree with them or else. The conservatives never do that in regard to their own convictions.
Nobody says that. (Not that MAGA is a group, but never mind: we can let the Leftist trope go unchallenged here.)

But there's all the difference in the world between beliefs freely chosen and those compelled.
Right, of course. The Republican conservatives, rugged individualists all, just happen to nod vigorously, in unison, to practically everything that Trump says. While the Democratic liberals, mindless sheep all, are programmed to nod vigorously, in unison, to everything that Biden says because it's all plotted out beforehand in the Comet Ping Pong pizza parlor in Washington D.C.
But even if there were, they're not "woke" because only the liberals can be that. Only liberals compel others to agree with them or else. The conservatives never do that in regard to their own convictions.
Immanuel Can wrote: Sat Dec 03, 2022 7:16 amThat seems to be how it works.
Uh, in your head, for example?
Immanuel Can wrote: Sat Dec 03, 2022 7:16 amIf you disagree with a Leftist, you have your business burned, your children harassed, your reputation destroyed, your social media feeds cut, your character assassinated, your head punched...

If you disagree with a conservative, you get disagreed with.
Okay, note for us just the top five instances of this that pop into your pinhead. And the ring-wing extremists never, ever resort to that sort of thing. Like, for example, when Antifa tried to take over the Capital Building and went gunning for, among others, Nancy Pelosi and Mike Pence. And then had the gall to blame on the MAGA fanatics!!
The things you won't do to keep from admitting even to yourself what you profess to believe!!

Or are you now telling us that if the henry quirks of the world are told by you, quoting directly from the Christian Bible...

"John 14:6 Jesus said, “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.”

...that they must accept Jesus Christ as their personal savior to be judged worthy of immortality and salvation in Heaven, they can simply refuse to and face no consequences?
Immanuel Can wrote: Sat Dec 03, 2022 7:16 amThere is no such thing as a decision with no consequences. Only Leftists seem to think there ought to be.
So, when others here make the decision not to accept Jesus Christ as their own personal savior, the consequences are eternal damnation. In Hell. And what exactly does that have to do with Leftists?
Immanuel Can wrote: Sat Dec 03, 2022 7:16 amBut you are still not a Christian. So clearly, nobody's forcing you or compelling you. And mention of eternal damnation itself fails to move you. So for now, you're just fine...as free as a bird...nothing is compelling you to anything.
Well, if the Christian God does exist, He gave me a brain and the capacity to use it. I have introspected deeply for years and years about God and religion. And in all honesty and in all sincerity, I cannot believe that He does exist. Here and now. Not without evidence that He and not one of the zillions of other Gods does.

But there you and your declamatory ilk are boasting of how the Christian God gives us a choice to somehow just "believe" in Him with no evidence other then your videos and quotes from the Bible...or face utter agony in Hell for all the rest of eternity.

The same thing so many others on their own declamatory One True Paths are telling us.
Immanuel Can wrote: Sat Dec 03, 2022 7:16 amBut every decision comes with consequences. And I guess we'll both see if that's true or not.
In other words, if I don't "wake up" and "see the light".

Yours though, not henry's. At least in regard to the other side of the grave.
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Re: woke

Post by Gary Childress »

Immanuel Can wrote: Sat Dec 03, 2022 9:51 pm
Gary Childress wrote: Sat Dec 03, 2022 8:33 pm Those are certainly very politically active groups. Do you dislike them...
Well, Gary, "like" or "not like" is not the issue.

I'm just asking what "right wing" group would have comparable power.
At the moment, I don't think any right-wing groups have the leeway that left-wing groups are given with regard to issues. I guess my question is whether or not that's a bad thing, and why or why not?
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Immanuel Can
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Re: woke

Post by Immanuel Can »

iambiguous wrote: Sat Dec 03, 2022 10:12 pm
Immanuel Can wrote: Sat Dec 03, 2022 7:16 amBut you are still not a Christian. So clearly, nobody's forcing you or compelling you. And mention of eternal damnation itself fails to move you. So for now, you're just fine...as free as a bird...nothing is compelling you to anything.
Well, if the Christian God does exist, He gave me a brain and the capacity to use it.
Quite so.
I have introspected deeply for years and years about God and religion.
Maybe "intro-spection" is looking in the wrong direction. Have you ever considered that?

If it were the right direction you were looking, don't you think you'd have found something? You'd either find evidence God exists, or evidence He doesn't. But you say you have no evidence.

So maybe you should look a different direction. Maybe you should have a look at those videos, as a starting point.
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Immanuel Can
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Re: woke

Post by Immanuel Can »

Gary Childress wrote: Sat Dec 03, 2022 10:26 pm
Immanuel Can wrote: Sat Dec 03, 2022 9:51 pm
Gary Childress wrote: Sat Dec 03, 2022 8:33 pm Those are certainly very politically active groups. Do you dislike them...
Well, Gary, "like" or "not like" is not the issue.

I'm just asking what "right wing" group would have comparable power.
At the moment, I don't think any right-wing groups have the leeway that left-wing groups are given with regard to issues.
More than "leeway," you would have to say.

Some Leftist groups get an open license to bully, rage, burn, suppress, exile, silence, shame, suppress information, disemploy, dox, rob and threaten the loved ones of their various detractors.

So what "right wing" group has anything like that?
commonsense
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Re: woke

Post by commonsense »

Immanuel Can wrote: Sat Dec 03, 2022 5:53 pm
commonsense wrote: Sat Dec 03, 2022 5:41 pm
Immanuel Can wrote: Fri Dec 02, 2022 7:00 pm
There isn't one, I suspect, for a very simple reason: wokism is collectivist, conservatism is individualistic.
Yes, there is. There’s just no term for it.
Actually, there isn't.

Point to the "conservative" group that today has any power at all to enforce a political correctness. There's none...at least, none in the developed West. But I can point you to dozens of Leftist groups who employ vicious means to punish dissent, and they all do live in the developed West.
The Religious Right
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Immanuel Can
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Re: woke

Post by Immanuel Can »

commonsense wrote: Sat Dec 03, 2022 10:42 pm
Immanuel Can wrote: Sat Dec 03, 2022 5:53 pm
commonsense wrote: Sat Dec 03, 2022 5:41 pm

Yes, there is. There’s just no term for it.
Actually, there isn't.

Point to the "conservative" group that today has any power at all to enforce a political correctness. There's none...at least, none in the developed West. But I can point you to dozens of Leftist groups who employ vicious means to punish dissent, and they all do live in the developed West.
The Religious Right
There's no such organization. I named a bunch of organizations specifically. Can't you?
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