woke

How should society be organised, if at all?

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Alexis Jacobi
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Re: woke

Post by Alexis Jacobi »

commonsense wrote: Wed Feb 22, 2023 9:03 pm Pardon my ad hom as I ask you if your course is characterized by as many ad homs as you inject in your posts in this discussion and elsewhere in this forum?
Je vous accorde le droit de commenter avec ad hominem du genre le plus déporable! Allez-y!

I am, I believe, a master of the overhanded ad hominem. Yes, you heard that right. But what does it mean: overhanded? Well, the opposite of underhanded. With me it is an art form. My ad hominems slash homonyms slash Houyhnhnms gallop forth cavorting and nipping and always wrapped in the sweetest loving eloquence and bubbly humor. If you have any advice for improvement I am open to it.
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Alexis Jacobi
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Re: woke

Post by Alexis Jacobi »

Harbal wrote: Wed Feb 22, 2023 9:24 pm
Immanuel Can wrote: Wed Feb 22, 2023 4:24 pm
That's it? The whole purpose of your existence is "to be happy" and "not harm anyone?" :shock:
I applaude him for that, and share his sentiments, despite your obvious disdain for it. If being a Christian compels you to look down on it, it is all the more reason not to be one.
I second your indignation.

However, a weekly income of $20,000 should be added to the necessity list.

Be happy, do no harm, and have lots of spending loot.
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Immanuel Can
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Re: woke

Post by Immanuel Can »

Gary Childress wrote: Wed Feb 22, 2023 7:52 pm Sorry if I don't serve a useful function to others.
Well, never mind "others."

Is it enough for yourself to think the whole purpose of your existence is to be born, hurt no one, and be dead again?
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Alexis Jacobi
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Re: woke

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And death shall have no dominion.
Dead men naked they shall be one
With the man in the wind and the west moon;
When their bones are picked clean and the clean bones gone,
They shall have stars at elbow and foot;
Though they go mad they shall be sane,
Though they sink through the sea they shall rise again;
Though lovers be lost love shall not;
And death shall have no dominion.
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Immanuel Can
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Re: woke

Post by Immanuel Can »

Gary Childress wrote: Wed Feb 22, 2023 8:09 pm
Immanuel Can wrote: Wed Feb 22, 2023 4:21 pm
Gary Childress wrote: Wed Feb 22, 2023 4:02 pm Well, we all know that every socialist believes in killing and enslaving others, whether they want to admit it or not.
It's what they do. It's what they have done in 100% of the cases, as soon as they've been able to seize control of a country. So we know that's true.
Socialist countries don't seem to get involved in as many invasions and foreign wars in order to preserve resource sources.
Like the USSR "didn't," and China "doesn't" now? :shock:
How many military ventures did the USSR's military make after Stalin's tyranny ended?
Many. There was the whole Cold War, in which Russia, China and the US fought, mostly through espionage and proxy wars, across the globe...and nearly killed us all in the process. I'd say that was bad. And if you go to the Developing World today, you'll find China is secretively buying it up and turning it to their own purposes, fighting another kind of Cold War behind everybody's backs. In Cuba and Venezuela, Socialism is aggressively at work immiserating and oppressing millions again. You would never want to live in either.

It's only in the West that we have the luxury of not knowing about such things.

Socialism is aggressive and malign. It's always been that way, because it can allow no rivals. If pitted against any free markets at all, it always loses; and so long as there are free countries, the control of Socialist despots is limited. So they don't keep their wickedness to themselves. They always have to spread it.
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Immanuel Can
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Re: woke

Post by Immanuel Can »

commonsense wrote: Wed Feb 22, 2023 8:55 pm How do you know what you know and why do you believe what you believe?
Well, if left to ourselves, neither you nor I nor anybody else would be in a position to say, obviously. Unless God makes it known, in some form, we're never going to know about Him. So the question becomes, "Has God spoken, and if so, where?" That's step 1.

But if we're going to continue in that vein, we should move to the "Christianity" thread. This one's about Wokeness, and I'm reluctant to hijack it.
BigMike
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Re: woke

Post by BigMike »

iambiguous wrote: Fri Dec 02, 2022 6:12 pm From dictionary.com

wokeism:
Usually Disparaging. promotion of liberal progressive ideology and policy as an expression of sensitivity to systemic injustices and prejudices:
"She worked for nearly a decade at the university before she finally tired of the influence of wokeism."
“The only religion allowed around here is wokeism,” he complained.


Okay, but is there or is there not the conservative equivalent of this? Liberals go after those who don't think like they do about race or gender or sexual orientation or abortion or capital punishment or gun control or religion. What, and conservatives don't in turn insist that in order to be truly "awake", others are obligated to think as they do? There's not a right-wing rendition of "politically correct"?

Aren't the moral and political and religious objectivists here often fanatically "woke"? You think like they do or you are stupidly sound asleep to reality.
Yes, there is a conservative equivalent to "wokeism" known as "cancel culture." Cancel culture refers to the practice of boycotting or publicly shaming individuals or organizations perceived to have acted inappropriately or hold views that are deemed offensive. Like wokeism, cancel culture has been criticized as being an expression of ideological purity that stifles free speech and intellectual diversity.

It's true that both liberals and conservatives can be guilty of promoting their own version of "political correctness" or insisting that others conform to their worldview. This kind of thinking can lead to intolerance and a lack of respect for differing opinions. It's important to engage in respectful dialogue and debate, and to be open to listening to and learning from different perspectives.
Gary Childress
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Re: woke

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Immanuel Can wrote: Wed Feb 22, 2023 9:52 pm
Gary Childress wrote: Wed Feb 22, 2023 7:52 pm Sorry if I don't serve a useful function to others.
Well, never mind "others."

Is it enough for yourself to think the whole purpose of your existence is to be born, hurt no one, and be dead again?
What else might my existence be for? What else should it be for? What else is there for me to do? Women don't like me, they never have and I don't want any children. My hypothetical children would likely have mental issues and I'd rather spare them from what I've been through. If you feel a grand purpose in life, good for you. You should try having schizophrenia and spending over half of your life on anti-psychotics sometime. I'm 90% sure it'd eliminate whatever sense of motivation and vitality you currently possess. And I can't go off the meds without serious consequences that are a hundred times worse than the side effects. Not everyone is in the same place in this world and I can't say that fate or fortune, or whatever you want to call it, is always fair and just. Sometimes it just stinks and if there were justice in the world, it wouldn't. So no, I'm not convinced that God is good--that he probably doesn't have any noteworthy purpose for us all--any more so than someone who keeps a pet goldfish penned up in a bowl of mostly stagnant water for their own personal amusement.
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Re: woke

Post by Gary Childress »

Immanuel Can wrote: Wed Feb 22, 2023 9:59 pm
Gary Childress wrote: Wed Feb 22, 2023 8:09 pm
Immanuel Can wrote: Wed Feb 22, 2023 4:21 pm
It's what they do. It's what they have done in 100% of the cases, as soon as they've been able to seize control of a country. So we know that's true.


Like the USSR "didn't," and China "doesn't" now? :shock:
How many military ventures did the USSR's military make after Stalin's tyranny ended?
Many. There was the whole Cold War, in which Russia, China and the US fought, mostly through espionage and proxy wars, across the globe...and nearly killed us all in the process. I'd say that was bad. And if you go to the Developing World today, you'll find China is secretively buying it up and turning it to their own purposes, fighting another kind of Cold War behind everybody's backs. In Cuba and Venezuela, Socialism is aggressively at work immiserating and oppressing millions again. You would never want to live in either.

It's only in the West that we have the luxury of not knowing about such things.

Socialism is aggressive and malign. It's always been that way, because it can allow no rivals. If pitted against any free markets at all, it always loses; and so long as there are free countries, the control of Socialist despots is limited. So they don't keep their wickedness to themselves. They always have to spread it.
Proxy wars and espionage are not on the same scale as outright invasion. Look at Vietnam. There's nothing on the scale of what happened in Vietnam that Russia or China did to ANYONE. The US happily bragged it was going to "bomb them into the stone age." And pretty much did. They're still digging explosives out of the ground over there, so the kids aren't accidentally setting them off playing in minefields or something.

As far as wickedness, capitalism is pretty darn good at that too. Corporations don't give a rats ass about humanity. They're out to maximize profit and limit liability for the consequences. That's the whole purpose of incorporation in a nutshell. The US has done just as much if not more to thwart its socialist adversaries as they have done to us. The US and UK sent troops to fight in Russia during the revolution because it was afraid Russia might pose a successful role model and spark the same sort of behavior in the European colonies.

Don't kid yourself IC. Socialism was the best answer humanity could think of to combat the grotesque exploitation and subjugation of ordinary people that sprang out of the industrial revolution and "capitalism". Is socialism working? No. But capitalism is no prettier. Maybe that's God's way of saying, "sorry people, there's no solution to any of the dysfunction in this world I created. Take it or die fighting it."
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Immanuel Can
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Re: woke

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Gary Childress wrote: Thu Feb 23, 2023 1:07 am What else might my existence be for?
Well, nothing, if there's no God. It's not even for your own happiness, or for harmlessness, since in such a world there's no moral intention built into the whole system.

But if there's a God? Well, then things are quite different. Then, you're the purposeful creation of Somebody who intended something by your being here, and plausibly has plans for how that works out for your best, too.

But there are two tracks of life...and really, only two. There's life as if we're living in the middle of a giant, cosmic accident. And there's life in relationship to God. Everybody's in one or the other. And sure, life looks pretty rough in the track you're on now, I'll grant you.

So what have you got to lose? Isn't it at least worth a thought?

If I were you, I'd open up the conversation with God, and see where it goes. Even if it starts on hard terms, at least it's honest. And you never know what you're going to find out.
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Immanuel Can
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Re: woke

Post by Immanuel Can »

Gary Childress wrote: Thu Feb 23, 2023 1:23 am Proxy wars and espionage are not on the same scale as outright invasion. Look at Vietnam. There's nothing on the scale of what happened in Vietnam that Russia or China did to ANYONE.
Oh dear. You don't know about Vietnam?

Vietnam was a proxy war that the Viet Cong were losing, until China intervened. Really, it was an America-China conflict, ultimately.
Socialism was the best answer humanity could think of
How sad is that!

Their "best answer" turned out to be the most homicidal creed in history, without equal or rival.
But capitalism is no prettier.
It can be ugly, too, I grant you. But it's never been as ugly as Socialism, nor has it piled up the corpses as high.

But these are not the only alternatives. The very term "Capitalism" is a Marxist term. They like you to think in strict binaries, such as "Either Communism or Capitalism." But there are plenty of other ways of doing things, and most of them are better than both.

For instance, even though there's no perfect alternative, a largely free-market system with strictly limited, democratic governance in areas of special public concern (such as national defense or infrastructure), controlled by a well-crafted constitution is likely to serve the world better than either of the extremes offered by the "Capitalism-Communism" diad.

They'd love you to think there are only two options: cruel "Capitalism" and utopian "Marxism." But if that's all we've got, we can't be worse off than the latter.
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Re: woke

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Immanuel Can wrote: Thu Feb 23, 2023 4:07 am
Gary Childress wrote: Thu Feb 23, 2023 1:07 am What else might my existence be for?
Well, nothing, if there's no God. It's not even for your own happiness, or for harmlessness, since in such a world there's no moral intention built into the whole system.

But if there's a God? Well, then things are quite different. Then, you're the purposeful creation of Somebody who intended something by your being here, and plausibly has plans for how that works out for your best, too.

But there are two tracks of life...and really, only two. There's life as if we're living in the middle of a giant, cosmic accident. And there's life in relationship to God. Everybody's in one or the other. And sure, life looks pretty rough in the track you're on now, I'll grant you.

So what have you got to lose? Isn't it at least worth a thought?

If I were you, I'd open up the conversation with God, and see where it goes. Even if it starts on hard terms, at least it's honest. And you never know what you're going to find out.
I tried talking to God. Nothing happens. Crickets chirp and I'm still a socially awkward loser who can't find a date on a Saturday night. And that just makes me more bitter toward God. I don't think God really cares about our happiness. We're his goldfish or something. Some of us are lucky if he gives us enough to survive off of. When he gets tired of us and forgets to change the water in the bowl, we'll end up floating on top.
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Immanuel Can
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Re: woke

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Gary Childress wrote: Thu Feb 23, 2023 5:59 am I tried talking to God.
How long did you try...and I mean really try. How many times a day? For how many days? For how many years? And did you really talk to Him about what was going on in your life, or did you just peel off some sort of dead, rote recitation?

If you're like most people, you may think that just having some idea about God, and maybe throwing an occasional "special request" His way is the limit of what He has in mind. But if that's the case, you're quite right: you'll get nothing but crickets.

But what would you expect? Nobody likes to be taken for granted, treated like a mere formality, or only "used" when it's convenient. And if that's true of humans, it's a lot more true of God.
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Re: woke

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Immanuel Can wrote: Thu Feb 23, 2023 4:27 am
Gary Childress wrote: Thu Feb 23, 2023 1:23 am Proxy wars and espionage are not on the same scale as outright invasion. Look at Vietnam. There's nothing on the scale of what happened in Vietnam that Russia or China did to ANYONE.
Oh dear. You don't know about Vietnam?

Vietnam was a proxy war that the Viet Cong were losing, until China intervened. Really, it was an America-China conflict, ultimately.
Socialism was the best answer humanity could think of
How sad is that!
Yes. It's very sad. Humans have done everything in the book that we can come up with to try to make the world better. The combustion engine will probably turn our planet into Venus if we don't all die of some kind of cancer or something from all the microplastics that are entering our bodies. We thought plastic would make things better too. It hasn't. Our efforts to fix God's messed-up world are like an ongoing joke. NOTHING we have tried (with our greatest ingenuity) is working to fix this world.
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Re: woke

Post by Gary Childress »

Immanuel Can wrote: Thu Feb 23, 2023 6:06 am
Gary Childress wrote: Thu Feb 23, 2023 5:59 am I tried talking to God.
How long did you try...and I mean really try. How many times a day? For how many days? For how many years? And did you really talk to Him about what was going on in your life, or did you just peel off some sort of dead, rote recitation?

If you're like most people, you may think that just having some idea about God, and maybe throwing an occasional "special request" His way is the limit of what He has in mind. But if that's the case, you're quite right: you'll get nothing but crickets.

But what would you expect? Nobody likes to be taken for granted, treated like a mere formality, or only "used" when it's convenient. And if that's true of humans, it's a lot more true of God.
I tried long enough to figure out that God is not interested in my happiness. So I'm not interested in him. I didn't ask to be in this dumpster. I've spent 55 years of my life wandering around this shit hole aimlessly hoping to find some kind of companionship. That's all I've ever been interested in. There's really nothing else out there that I find particularly appealing other than farting around on the computer and that got old a long time ago. Now I'm too bitter to be any good to anyone. So I may as well accept that life is just going to remain miserable for the duration. All I have is the will to complain. If I didn't have that I'd be staring at the walls.
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