That's the problem. Feelings are treacherous. Sometimes they point to something true...but often, they just point to imaginary crocodiles.commonsense wrote: ↑Sun Sep 18, 2022 5:13 pmMaybe not true but powerful enough to shape beliefs and actions.Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Sun Sep 18, 2022 2:13 pm
Feelings often go wrong...sometimes, badly so. The feeling you had, as a child, that there was a psycho-killer or crocodile under your bed, may have so terrified you that you were afraid to put your feet on the floor. That didn't make it "true." It just made it a real "feeling."
A feeling that a crocodile lies under the bed can lead to a belief that that is so. And that belief can lead to avoiding putting the feet on the floor until a parent looks under the bed and says it’s safe now.
So feelings can shape voting behavior.
Trump Derangement Syndrome
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Re: Trump Derangement Syndrome
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Re: Trump Derangement Syndrome
Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Sun Sep 18, 2022 5:26 pm That's the problem. Feelings are treacherous. Sometimes they point to something true...but often, they just point to imaginary crocodiles.
That’s the conundrum with feelings isn’t it? Yet many people rely on feelings at the expense of fact and reason.
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Re: Trump Derangement Syndrome
This is also the problem with TDS. People are angry against the guy, with no proportionate motive for doing so. They can't tell you exactly WHY they think what they think, or rather feel what they feel...they're just feeling it.commonsense wrote: ↑Sun Sep 18, 2022 6:30 pmImmanuel Can wrote: ↑Sun Sep 18, 2022 5:26 pm That's the problem. Feelings are treacherous. Sometimes they point to something true...but often, they just point to imaginary crocodiles.
That’s the conundrum with feelings isn’t it? Yet many people rely on feelings at the expense of fact and reason.
And they aren't aware that the feelings are being ginned up for them by others.
Tillie is a prime example of this: he says he has no particular charge against Trump...nothing court-proven, nothing credible on the terms he swears he sticks to. And yet, he hates Trump more than Clinton, for whom the proof is public, or Biden, whose defects are manifest every day (not even to mention the laptop), or Bush, who was less armed with wit, perhaps, or Reagan, who was far more powerful and influential...
And yet...rage...slander...hatred...complete rejection.
Why?
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Re: Trump Derangement Syndrome
Oooh oooh! Can I?
I judge that nowhere in this thread has tillingborn said anything about their political opinion of Clinton, Trump or Biden.
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Re: Trump Derangement Syndrome
Ah, so you're buying that his invoking of Stormy Daniels, or Jan. 6th, or Trump's talk, or the 25 allegations, are just incidental, because he said so?mickthinks wrote: ↑Sun Sep 18, 2022 7:27 pmOooh oooh! Can I?
I judge that nowhere in this thread has tillingborn said anything about their political opinion of Clinton, Trump or Biden.
And have you noticed any comparable dredging up of references to Clinton or Biden's past?
Well, I suppose if you believe the disclaimers he offers, then one might think that.
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Re: Trump Derangement Syndrome
You seem to believe that feelings must be logical to be valid.Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Sun Sep 18, 2022 6:54 pmThis is also the problem with TDS. People are angry against the guy, with no proportionate motive for doing so. They can't tell you exactly WHY they think what they think, or rather feel what they feel...they're just feeling it.commonsense wrote: ↑Sun Sep 18, 2022 6:30 pmImmanuel Can wrote: ↑Sun Sep 18, 2022 5:26 pm That's the problem. Feelings are treacherous. Sometimes they point to something true...but often, they just point to imaginary crocodiles.
That’s the conundrum with feelings isn’t it? Yet many people rely on feelings at the expense of fact and reason.
And they aren't aware that the feelings are being ginned up for them by others.
Tillie is a prime example of this: he says he has no particular charge against Trump...nothing court-proven, nothing credible on the terms he swears he sticks to. And yet, he hates Trump more than Clinton, for whom the proof is public, or Biden, whose defects are manifest every day (not even to mention the laptop), or Bush, who was less armed with wit, perhaps, or Reagan, who was far more powerful and influential...
And yet...rage...slander...hatred...complete rejection.
Why?
Interestingly, but I don’t think you can see it, what describes TDS can be turned upside down to describe DTS.
Your asking why at this point reveals you don’t understand what is said to you. I ask you why that is.
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Re: Trump Derangement Syndrome
"Valid" is a logic term. But it's not one I ever used. That's yours, in this case.commonsense wrote: ↑Sun Sep 18, 2022 8:45 pm You seem to believe that feelings must be logical to be valid.
What I said was that they have to be judged, rationally, in order to know whether or not they're justified. Simply having a "feeling" proves nothing about that, because so many feelings we all have are irrational and turn out to be unwarranted.
Crocodiles under the bed, remember?
The remainder of your message, I don't really profess to understand.
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Yes, “valid” is a logic term. It is also—and this is the sense in which I used it—used to signify the state of feelings. One can validate another’s feelings simply by listening and nodding affirmatively. This is something that happens IRL.Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Sun Sep 18, 2022 9:07 pm"Valid" is a logic term. But it's not one I ever used. That's yours, in this case.commonsense wrote: ↑Sun Sep 18, 2022 8:45 pm You seem to believe that feelings must be logical to be valid.
What I said was that they have to be judged, rationally, in order to know whether or not they're justified. Simply having a "feeling" proves nothing about that, because so many feelings we all have are irrational and turn out to be unwarranted.
You are also right that a feeling cannot prove anything. Proof is logical. Feelings are not. Feelings cannot be evaluated using rationality.
Just as I predicted.Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Sun Sep 18, 2022 9:07 pm
The remainder of your message, I don't really profess to understand.
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Re: Trump Derangement Syndrome
Let’s say that a person is scared of puppies.
That that person is scared is a fact. Being scared is his true feeling.
There’s no sufficient reason, logic, proof or rationale for being scared of puppy dogs.
Nonetheless, this person feels scared.
That that person is scared is a fact. Being scared is his true feeling.
There’s no sufficient reason, logic, proof or rationale for being scared of puppy dogs.
Nonetheless, this person feels scared.
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Re: Trump Derangement Syndrome
That sort of "validation" is not worth anything, unless it is accompanied by good judgment.commonsense wrote: ↑Sun Sep 18, 2022 9:22 pm Yes, “valid” is a logic term. It is also—and this is the sense in which I used it—used to signify the state of feelings. One can validate another’s feelings simply by listening and nodding affirmatively. This is something that happens IRL.
If you are speaking, and you see all the criminals "validating", one might want to think about saying something different.
Sure they can. That's what we do all the time.Feelings cannot be evaluated using rationality.
We have a feeling...say, of apprehensiveness, or of unexpected elation, or of suspicion...and we say, "What's behind this feeling? Is it just a feeling, or is it alerting me to some actual fact?
And it's our rational faculties that tell us which it is.
Well, it was, indeed, "predictable." The language itself wasn't clear. I don't really think anybody could understand it.Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Sun Sep 18, 2022 8:07 pm
The remainder of your message, I don't really profess to understand.
Just as I predicted.
So yes, you correctly predicted that what you were saying was incomprehensible, as it stands.
But you can clarify, if you wish.
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Re: Trump Derangement Syndrome
A lot of decisions are made in an attempt to rationalize the irrational.
A person might say that he is afraid of puppies because one ate his twin brother.
Probably delusional and certainly irrational, but it is what it is.
A person might say that he is afraid of puppies because one ate his twin brother.
Probably delusional and certainly irrational, but it is what it is.
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Re: Trump Derangement Syndrome
That's again the problem with feelings.commonsense wrote: ↑Sun Sep 18, 2022 9:40 pm A lot of decisions are made in an attempt to rationalize the irrational.
A person might say that he is afraid of puppies because one ate his twin brother.
Probably delusional and certainly irrational, but it is what it is.
They can be very strong, very viscerally powerful, and completely unjustified at the same time.
How many of us jump when the killer in a horror film jumps out of the closet?
But why? We're not a frightened girl trapped in a midnight mansion; we're a huge group of people sitting in a movie theatre, eating popcorn, and expecting to get ice cream after the show. Nevertheless, in the moment, those feelings can be most jarring, most compelling...
Strength of feeling is no signal of truth.
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Re: Trump Derangement Syndrome
I think you’re beginning to get it.Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Sun Sep 18, 2022 10:17 pmThat's again the problem with feelings.commonsense wrote: ↑Sun Sep 18, 2022 9:40 pm A lot of decisions are made in an attempt to rationalize the irrational.
A person might say that he is afraid of puppies because one ate his twin brother.
Probably delusional and certainly irrational, but it is what it is.
They can be very strong, very viscerally powerful, and completely unjustified at the same time.
How many of us jump when the killer in a horror film jumps out of the closet?
But why? We're not a frightened girl trapped in a midnight mansion; we're a huge group of people sitting in a movie theatre, eating popcorn, and expecting to get ice cream after the show. Nevertheless, in the moment, those feelings can be most jarring, most compelling...
Strength of feeling is no signal of truth.
Now if you’ll just realize that for many people feelings are how they choose a candidate to vote for…
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Re: Trump Derangement Syndrome
You're kidding, right? You think I didn't get that?commonsense wrote: ↑Mon Sep 19, 2022 12:06 am Now if you’ll just realize that for many people feelings are how they choose a candidate to vote for…
It may be true; but it can be manipulated, because feelings are not rational. They can be right, but they can as easily be wrong. If people vote on their feelings, rather than on the facts, they can be made fools...tools of those who are expert at emotional manipulation.
If you're right, though, you're implying an explanation for TDS. You're also suggesting the democratic process is at serious threat.
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Re: Trump Derangement Syndrome
BINGO!Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Mon Sep 19, 2022 1:16 amYou're kidding, right? You think I didn't get that?commonsense wrote: ↑Mon Sep 19, 2022 12:06 am Now if you’ll just realize that for many people feelings are how they choose a candidate to vote for…
It may be true; but it can be manipulated, because feelings are not rational. They can be right, but they can as easily be wrong. If people vote on their feelings, rather than on the facts, they can be made fools...tools of those who are expert at emotional manipulation.
If you're right, though, you're implying an explanation for TDS. You're also suggesting the democratic process is at serious threat.
(and the same explanation applies to DTS)