Trump Derangement Syndrome

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tillingborn
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Re: Trump Derangement Syndrome

Post by tillingborn »

Immanuel Can wrote: Thu Oct 06, 2022 2:44 pmYou have the evidence. It's not my job to "see" it for you. You will see it, or you will choose not to.
I don't choose not to see what isn't there. You by contrast are adamant that the evidence shows an agenda to take away all our possessions by 2030. What I see is a poor prediction that people will happily agree to borrowing or renting, rather than owning things. Either you can show where the WEF state that this is their aim, or deal with the fact that you see things which do not exist.
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FlashDangerpants
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Re: Trump Derangement Syndrome

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Walker wrote: Thu Oct 06, 2022 2:48 pm one of the greatest presidents in US history.
lol
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Immanuel Can
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Re: Trump Derangement Syndrome

Post by Immanuel Can »

tillingborn wrote: Thu Oct 06, 2022 3:13 pm
Immanuel Can wrote: Thu Oct 06, 2022 2:44 pmYou have the evidence. It's not my job to "see" it for you. You will see it, or you will choose not to.
I don't choose not to see what isn't there.
Right. Don't play poker.
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Alexis Jacobi
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Re: Trump Derangement Syndrome

Post by Alexis Jacobi »

tillingborn wrote: Thu Oct 06, 2022 10:31 am
Alexis Jacobi wrote: Wed Oct 05, 2022 9:56 pmI am thinking about the groups of people who get involved with what I have called paranoid theories in the US. The people who have things to say about *global elites* and about *globalism*, etc.

Where do they get the idea they are not in control? Or are being controlled (unfairly and against their interests)? Here for example. Is their perception accurate? I think it is.
I think I might have read that differently to you. Michael Moore sets out a good case for why workers justifiably feel powerless and angry. The specific example he gives is the globalist car manufacturers of Detroit who would take their car factories to Mexico. Donald Trump's threat to impose 35% import tariffs was a vote winner with the people who had, or were about to lose their jobs. Roughly 14,000 people in the car industry did lose their jobs when General Motors closed several factories, in part because of the tariffs Trump placed on imported steel.

So yes, the workers perception that they are likely to be let down by powerful industries is accurate. What they failed to perceive, as Moore points out, is that a man with golf courses on 3 continents will also let them down.
Donald Trump, in my view, represents or brings onto the scene an inchoate force or perhaps *idea* is the right word. Though I would also include a word connoting sentiment. My view is that Donald Trump can be understood (one means at least) through a Jungian lens: he is one of those historical figures that rise up out of the body of the people and, though he may have designs and intentions of his own (subjectively) he represents a conscious, semi-conscious or unconscious psychological will. So if this view is correct, or at all useful, Donald Trump is cast (through projection) as a hero by those who called him forth (i.e. as a man of history) but simultaneously receives a very different content (of projection) from another sector of the demographic and is portrayed as *evil* or really any number of different projected images.

If one resorts, say, to the NYTs portrayal of Trump (I use NYTs as a general reference to a set of progressive/left journals of opinion) Trump is shown in his *demonic* aspect. The demographic that super-charges their projection onto Trump as Hero is, as Moore indicates, precisely that demographic class of disaffected white Americans who make up America's 'original demographic'. That class is now portrayed as high school educated yokels (the Deplorable) without a BA who, though they don't say it quite in this way, "don't know their asses from a hole in the ground". My own researches have led me to understand that there are élites (I apologize for the word but there is no other) who have an interest in demographically reconstituting the American nation. So this is why everything having to do with racial identity has so quickly rushed to the surface over the last 10 years or so. The issue, the reality, of shifting demographics (i.e. racial and ethnic composition) is thus one of the primary factors in civil conflict -- though it is almost impossible for this issue to be talked about openly or clearly. It is certainly not possible that those who are (as they perceive) being replaced, or pushed aside, denegrated, etc., could be seen as having a valid perspective. For this reason their perspective is always presented in the worst possible light. And that is why terms like racist, Nazi, Rightwing extremist, terrorist are the terms-of-choice. These are the hottest of hot words and they have a deadly function.

And naturally, when seen through this lens (and it is a veritable structure-of-view, an ideological-perceptual stance) Donald Trump is a social and cultural Satan and those who like him, elevate him as a hero, are portrayed as minions of Satan. Everything dark everything murky everything morally reprehensible is projected onto Donald Trump. The perceptual stance is there, pre-created and ready for anyone to step into it and inhabit it. And naturally this is what people do. Similarly, the 'hero' projection is there as well and has been established to be inhabited.

It is true, or I think it is true, that it would be possible for level-headed people to present a picture of what is going on in the United States through a realistic but also a fair and accurate lens -- but I have little idea who does this. Meaning that I do not believe that any larger media-system (purveyor of perspective, social and political interpreter) can do this. There is too much at stake. All of the media companies are parts of constellations of capital interests which, I think necessarily, could not 'tell the truth'. My assertion is that *telling the truth* is itself, now, the chief heretical activity. But I do not profess, necessarily, to possess this 'truth'.

What I do suggest though is that more often than not any conversation on the topic immediately becomes a bitter, ideological struggle between people who sit on one side or the other of the *divide* I allude to.
So yes, the workers perception that they are likely to be let down by powerful industries is accurate. What they failed to perceive, as Moore points out, is that a man with golf courses on 3 continents will also let them down.
I think I get your point. I have researched the Republican establishment (that of Reagan and Bush) and though they (or it) was favored by the 'working class' of the regions we are referring to, those that a PR establishment manipulated, I am not at all sure that they were not *shafted* by powerful economic interests that don't -- can't really -- care about people. So your point (if it is that) is taken.

However, the movement and the current of populism that Donald Trump has activated -- now that seems to me something different. Will it go on by itself without Trump? How will *the Establishment* react if the torch is handed to someone else? Personally, I think Trump should step aside but endorse someone else and then remain powerfully behind that candidate. Trump is simply too contentious a character and the level of psych-social projection is really over the top. Let's suppose he did seek and got re-elected. God only knows, given the level and intensity of the *derangement* he produces within the psychological matrix of those who hate him with an unmeasured fury, God only knows what they would do!

But the real issue here is that in the very Halls of Power there are struggles going on which I do not believe we can actually see. Those struggles are hidden (or obscured) from our viewing.
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Alexis Jacobi
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Re: Trump Derangement Syndrome

Post by Alexis Jacobi »

tillingborn wrote: Thu Oct 06, 2022 3:13 pm
Immanuel Can wrote: Thu Oct 06, 2022 2:44 pmYou have the evidence. It's not my job to "see" it for you. You will see it, or you will choose not to.
I don't choose not to see what isn't there. You by contrast are adamant that the evidence shows an agenda to take away all our possessions by 2030. What I see is a poor prediction that people will happily agree to borrowing or renting, rather than owning things. Either you can show where the WEF state that this is their aim, or deal with the fact that you see things which do not exist.
There are then two issues (if I follow your chain of thought): 1) What is seen and understood, i.e. what is perceived and understood; what is imagined; and what is paranoiacally envisioned, and 2) What is really real and what is really happening.

If I understand you correctly you completely disregard the plans & projects of the WEF as being phantasy? Just empty imagining? And is it your assertion that the sort of things they talk about, and desire to introduce into political policy in many nations, is false (without evidence?)

I know that conversations with Immanuel Can tend to polarize, and I know that some of his perspectives are exaggerated (some are not of course), but it is not fair nor correct to assert that it is not necessary to have suspicions and concerns about these sorts of planning meetings by unelected para-governmental persons (who represent capital concentrations with designs and interests).

So where do you stand exactly? The phrase "You'll own nothing and you will be happy" was set in motion. Those that have these sorts of idea actually exist. And they take activist stances. Such statements could not but arouse resistance and become the subject of meme-thought. No?
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Re: Trump Derangement Syndrome

Post by Walker »

Immanuel Can wrote: Thu Oct 06, 2022 3:36 pm
tillingborn wrote: Thu Oct 06, 2022 3:13 pm
Immanuel Can wrote: Thu Oct 06, 2022 2:44 pmYou have the evidence. It's not my job to "see" it for you. You will see it, or you will choose not to.
I don't choose not to see what isn't there.
Right. Don't play poker.
That's right. Say it plain. A place that deserves my attention deserves truth.

Ignoring Trump's objective successes, and laughing at them, is a TDS affliction that is applied to all of life.
mickthinks
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Re: Trump Derangement Syndrome

Post by mickthinks »

That's right. Say it plain.


lol Manny's response to tillingborn there could be described any number of ways*, but "plain" is not one of them. I think you must be deranged, Walker.


* "uncomprehending", "incongruous", "batshit" all spring to mind
Walker
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Re: Trump Derangement Syndrome

Post by Walker »

mickthinks wrote: Thu Oct 06, 2022 4:33 pm That's right. Say it plain.


lol Manny's response to tillingborn there could be described any number of ways*, but "plain" is not one of them. I think you must be deranged, Walker.


* "uncomprehending", "incongruous", "batshit" all spring to mind
If someone wanted to destroy the USofA, they would do what Biden is doing. The sectors of society under attack have been enumerated in this very thread … and that they go ignored speaks volumes concerning the selective attention caused by TDS affliction that infects consciousness in order to support a narrative … even if the narrative supported is as shallow as a dislike of Trump’s bombast.

That’s the nature of TDS.

It afflicts not only Folks in all walks of life, but with all degrees of capacity, from sophisticated to (ahem), shallow.
mickthinks
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Re: Trump Derangement Syndrome

Post by mickthinks »


If someone wanted to destroy the USofA, they would do what Biden is doing.


Is there a reason for this death-defying non sequitur, Walker? If it had even a tangential relationship to the truth, it would have no such proximity to the issue of evidence and clarity in Manny's poker metaphor.

Is it possible that both he and you are running out of coherent defences of your right-wing, pro-Trump position? Are you suffering from a falure of intellectual stamina?
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Alexis Jacobi
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Re: Trump Derangement Syndrome

Post by Alexis Jacobi »

mickthinks wrote: Thu Oct 06, 2022 5:10 pm
If someone wanted to destroy the USofA, they would do what Biden is doing.


Is there a reason for this death-defying non sequitur, Walker? If it had even a tangential relationship to the truth, it would have no such proximity to the issue of evidence and clarity in Manny's poker metaphor.

Is it possible that both he and you are running out of coherent defences of your right-wing, pro-Trump position? Are you suffering from a failure of intellectual stamina?
It is not really a non sequitur though. I take this sort of statement, which is an assessment and is interpretive, as a positive act and sign. I am certainly not afraid to examine it with an open mind.

If the US is not, let's say, being destroyed (which is hyperbolic) it is certainly being remodeled. That is to say that the definition of what America is, what it had been and what it was, is being redefined. There is literally a cultural war going on which has to do exactly with that. Who will control America's definition? Who will define what it is and what it should be?

The better question, though it is sure to arouse controversy, is Is the US in a process of being destroyed? Is that the right word? But the question implies that the asker has some sense of an answer to it. We know for example that people like Steve Bannon (who does have a coherent posture and a view that he articulates very well) see the US in a process of 'managed decline'. He has said that those who have power within the system are comfortable managing its decline because, I gather, in that process they themselves do not suffer (economically I assume). The idea of 'making America great again' would, in the best of circumstances, involve a veritable restructuring.

In essence wouldn't this mean decoupling from the global economy and globalization (which the élite class worked diligently to construct) and rebuilding the industrial sector? Isn't that the great loss that those in the industrial belt lament? Yet there are forces and powers that in no sense want the US, or any particular nation, to decouple. So if there is a struggle at the highest levels it has to do with this issue, does it not? Who will control? Who will decide?

The 'destruction of the US' could also mean a process of reducing the US to be just one cog in a globalized series of cogs. Who would have an interest in doing that? Certainly this would not be popular among the US population. But whose interests would it serve? And there you have the issue that has to be examined. There you have exclamations of the discomfort felt by those who decry 'globalization' and of course 'globalists' and those who attempt, often crudely, to articulate their view.

Of course, and beyond any doubt, Walker's statement has a tangential relationship to the truth. It is directly related to the core concerns felt by many many people. How many? Possibly almost half of the country! That is a great deal of people! And the idea of 'regaining control over America' and regaining control over the definition of America, as well as becoming more assertive politically in resistance to those who are seen as guiding the nation to questionable outcomes -- all of this is very much the right sort of matters to discuss.

Let me state my own position so that it is clear. I definitely support Trump in the sense that I adamantly reject the American Progressive-Left régime. Any enemy of my enemy is my friend -- for the time being. I have a strong feeling that in about a month the political equation is going to change dramatically. So that is good. I wish for my enemy's resounding defeat. I am absolutely in pro of a rebuilding of foundational conservative structures and values. This is a very complex issue. It will not happen going backward . . . but going forward. The US culture has been in phases of hyper-liberalization (in the sense of corruption, decay, and degeneracy) for about 50 years. Now it is provoking a substantial reaction. This reversal will not be easy. Yet it has substantially begun.

The difficulty in in trying to imagine, to visualize, how the deep cultural and social divisions will be bridged. Is it even possible that these divisions will be resolved or as they say 'healed'? I do not think that is the case. So it is hard to see how any of this will be resolved.
tillingborn
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Re: Trump Derangement Syndrome

Post by tillingborn »

Immanuel Can wrote: Thu Oct 06, 2022 3:36 pm
tillingborn wrote: Thu Oct 06, 2022 3:13 pmI don't choose not to see what isn't there.
Right. Don't play poker.
If I were to do so, I certainly wouldn't give my money to anyone who, like you, refuses to show their hand. What evidence have you that:
Immanuel Can wrote: Thu Oct 06, 2022 2:44 pmshows an agenda to take away all our possessions by 2030.
Or:
tillingborn wrote: Sat Oct 01, 2022 10:34 pmWhat did the Biden administration do to make it (the US economy) so disastrous?
There's actually no shame in being wrong. The shame is not being able to admit it.
tillingborn
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Re: Trump Derangement Syndrome

Post by tillingborn »

Walker wrote: Thu Oct 06, 2022 4:18 pm A place that deserves my attention deserves truth.
What is so deserving about your attention?
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Immanuel Can
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Re: Trump Derangement Syndrome

Post by Immanuel Can »

tillingborn wrote: Thu Oct 06, 2022 9:31 pm What evidence have you...
You have it. If you can't see it, nobody can help you. Sorry.
commonsense
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Re: Trump Derangement Syndrome

Post by commonsense »

For anyone who is uninclined to conduct an internet search on his own, here is the pablum you need, spoon fed to your needs:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Donald_ ... ywood_tape
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FlashDangerpants
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Re: Trump Derangement Syndrome

Post by FlashDangerpants »

Immanuel Can wrote: Thu Oct 06, 2022 10:01 pm
tillingborn wrote: Thu Oct 06, 2022 9:31 pm What evidence have you...
You have it. If you can't see it, nobody can help you. Sorry.
erm...
Immanuel Can wrote: Fri Sep 30, 2022 3:07 pm You need to prove that you have the evidence of what you claim...that evidence that's everywhere, and so easy to get, but of which you have none, so far...in order to refute the realization that no such evidence exists, and you've been bluffing.
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