fascism in America?

How should society be organised, if at all?

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Alexis Jacobi
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Re: fascism in America?

Post by Alexis Jacobi »

If you want me to engage with you, you must demonstrate that you can engage and that you are sincere. It isn’t a one-way street where you assign yourself the role of inquisitor. And you must reveal why this issue, specifically, is of interest and importance to you.
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FlashDangerpants
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Re: fascism in America?

Post by FlashDangerpants »

What did you mean when you wrote:

The Shoah narrative has some fictional elements which are still contested.

What are the fictional elements?
This isn't a trick question, just tell us what you meant when you wrote a thing.
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Alexis Jacobi
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Re: fascism in America?

Post by Alexis Jacobi »

This is my last effort with you.
If you want me to engage with you, you must demonstrate that you can engage and that you are sincere. It isn’t a one-way street where you assign yourself the role of inquisitor. And you must reveal why this issue, specifically, is of interest and importance to you.
In the absence of a substantial response I’ll put you on ignore. Sorry old bean.
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FlashDangerpants
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Re: fascism in America?

Post by FlashDangerpants »

Alexis Jacobi wrote: Sat Oct 29, 2022 7:04 pm This is my last effort with you.
If you want me to engage with you, you must demonstrate that you can engage and that you are sincere. It isn’t a one-way street where you assign yourself the role of inquisitor. And you must reveal why this issue, specifically, is of interest and importance to you.
In the absence of a substantial response I’ll put you on ignore. Sorry old bean.
You got an increibly straight forward question.
If that's the length you'll go to to avoid it then that's a you problem.
Walker
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Re: fascism in America?

Post by Walker »

Somehow, I don't how, this started out in the wrong thread.
Here is the thread where it finished.
viewtopic.php?p=606861#p606861

Apologies.
Iwannaplato
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Re: fascism in America?

Post by Iwannaplato »

FlashDangerpants wrote: Sat Oct 29, 2022 7:00 pm What did you mean when you wrote:

The Shoah narrative has some fictional elements which are still contested.

What are the fictional elements?
This isn't a trick question, just tell us what you meant when you wrote a thing.
The Shoah narrative has some fictional elements which are still contested.
That's a floppy sentence. If there are fictional elements, this would mean they are not factual.

I can see a sentence that says some elements of Shoah are contested. Or some information in Shoah is said to be fictional by some.

But the sentence states that they are fictional while saying they are contested. Contested means it's up in the air, some think they are true, some disagree. Calling them fictiional means that the author already has decided they are fictional.
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FlashDangerpants
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Re: fascism in America?

Post by FlashDangerpants »

Iwannaplato wrote: Sun Oct 30, 2022 4:32 pm
FlashDangerpants wrote: Sat Oct 29, 2022 7:00 pm What did you mean when you wrote:

The Shoah narrative has some fictional elements which are still contested.

What are the fictional elements?
This isn't a trick question, just tell us what you meant when you wrote a thing.
The Shoah narrative has some fictional elements which are still contested.
That's a floppy sentence. If there are fictional elements, this would mean they are not factual.

I can see a sentence that says some elements of Shoah are contested. Or some information in Shoah is said to be fictional by some.

But the sentence states that they are fictional while saying they are contested. Contested means it's up in the air, some think they are true, some disagree. Calling them fictiional means that the author already has decided they are fictional.
Sadly we will never conclusively know his actual intent. Jacobi cannot tell us which aspect of the holocaust he believes is a false narrative because it's pretty obvious he will be banned by the mods if he ever writes the words.
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Agent Smith
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Re: fascism in America?

Post by Agent Smith »

Now we know something which philosophers have been trying to tell us for the past 2.5 k years - we're missing the point, off by billion light years we are, oui?
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FlashDangerpants
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Re: fascism in America?

Post by FlashDangerpants »

Is that a fake Frnech accent?
Iwannaplato
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Re: fascism in America?

Post by Iwannaplato »

FlashDangerpants wrote: Mon Nov 07, 2022 6:29 pm
Iwannaplato wrote: Sun Oct 30, 2022 4:32 pm
FlashDangerpants wrote: Sat Oct 29, 2022 7:00 pm What did you mean when you wrote:

The Shoah narrative has some fictional elements which are still contested.

What are the fictional elements?
This isn't a trick question, just tell us what you meant when you wrote a thing.
The Shoah narrative has some fictional elements which are still contested.
That's a floppy sentence. If there are fictional elements, this would mean they are not factual.

I can see a sentence that says some elements of Shoah are contested. Or some information in Shoah is said to be fictional by some.

But the sentence states that they are fictional while saying they are contested. Contested means it's up in the air, some think they are true, some disagree. Calling them fictiional means that the author already has decided they are fictional.
Sadly we will never conclusively know his actual intent. Jacobi cannot tell us which aspect of the holocaust he believes is a false narrative because it's pretty obvious he will be banned by the mods if he ever writes the words.
Really, he'd be banned for questioning some part of the holocaust narrative? That's too bad, I think. And, yes, I know such issues are complex. I'd ban people for posting child pornography and the like, but process in discussion seems vastly more important than content. Again, yes, I know this is not a simple thing. But pernicious content and interaction can pass content tests fairly easily.
Belinda
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Re: fascism in America?

Post by Belinda »

Iwannaplato wrote: Sat Nov 12, 2022 8:19 am
FlashDangerpants wrote: Mon Nov 07, 2022 6:29 pm
Iwannaplato wrote: Sun Oct 30, 2022 4:32 pm
That's a floppy sentence. If there are fictional elements, this would mean they are not factual.

I can see a sentence that says some elements of Shoah are contested. Or some information in Shoah is said to be fictional by some.

But the sentence states that they are fictional while saying they are contested. Contested means it's up in the air, some think they are true, some disagree. Calling them fictiional means that the author already has decided they are fictional.
Sadly we will never conclusively know his actual intent. Jacobi cannot tell us which aspect of the holocaust he believes is a false narrative because it's pretty obvious he will be banned by the mods if he ever writes the words.
Really, he'd be banned for questioning some part of the holocaust narrative? That's too bad, I think. And, yes, I know such issues are complex. I'd ban people for posting child pornography and the like, but process in discussion seems vastly more important than content. Again, yes, I know this is not a simple thing. But pernicious content and interaction can pass content tests fairly easily.
Alexis is not a danger to historical accuracy as his literary merit is not enough for him to be taken seriously, and is too opaque to rouse the rabble.
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FlashDangerpants
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Re: fascism in America?

Post by FlashDangerpants »

Iwannaplato wrote: Sat Nov 12, 2022 8:19 am
FlashDangerpants wrote: Mon Nov 07, 2022 6:29 pm
Iwannaplato wrote: Sun Oct 30, 2022 4:32 pm
That's a floppy sentence. If there are fictional elements, this would mean they are not factual.

I can see a sentence that says some elements of Shoah are contested. Or some information in Shoah is said to be fictional by some.

But the sentence states that they are fictional while saying they are contested. Contested means it's up in the air, some think they are true, some disagree. Calling them fictiional means that the author already has decided they are fictional.
Sadly we will never conclusively know his actual intent. Jacobi cannot tell us which aspect of the holocaust he believes is a false narrative because it's pretty obvious he will be banned by the mods if he ever writes the words.
Really, he'd be banned for questioning some part of the holocaust narrative? That's too bad, I think. And, yes, I know such issues are complex. I'd ban people for posting child pornography and the like, but process in discussion seems vastly more important than content. Again, yes, I know this is not a simple thing. But pernicious content and interaction can pass content tests fairly easily.
He thinks that it was a necessary act of self defence against a Jewish conspiracy to dominate the world. You can definitely get banned if your take on the holocaust is that you are very sad to announce that it has to be done again.
Iwannaplato
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Re: fascism in America?

Post by Iwannaplato »

FlashDangerpants wrote: Sat Nov 12, 2022 3:29 pm He thinks that it was a necessary act of self defence against a Jewish conspiracy to dominate the world. You can definitely get banned if your take on the holocaust is that you are very sad to announce that it has to be done again.
How did you find that out if he didn't get banned?
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FlashDangerpants
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Re: fascism in America?

Post by FlashDangerpants »

Iwannaplato wrote: Sat Nov 12, 2022 3:41 pm
FlashDangerpants wrote: Sat Nov 12, 2022 3:29 pm He thinks that it was a necessary act of self defence against a Jewish conspiracy to dominate the world. You can definitely get banned if your take on the holocaust is that you are very sad to announce that it has to be done again.
How did you find that out if he didn't get banned?
I will admit that he hasn't explicitly stated it, and he is completely welcome to correct the record. But so far the case for the prosecution is that...
  • I asked him originally why I wasn't allowed to to use the term "conspiracy theory" to describe conspiratorial theorisings such as the fake moon landings, flat earth and those people who argue that Jews secretly ran the holocaust. He stated that the first two are complete fictions, but the last is not.
  • he does argue as a technical fact that there is a jewish conspiracy to rule the world (contained in this thread)
  • in that abominabale "Christianty" thread also wrote something about zionists running America today (possibly just the media or something)
  • I asked him what it is that he disputes about the hoocaust and he confirmed that it isn't the killings, or the methods or the numbers, or who killed whom.
  • there is clearly a point beyond which he does not feel able to express his belief openly.

Abductive reasoning leads me to a set of conclusions. They aren't supportable by more explicit reasonings because of the determined evasion of the subject. They would be easily dismissed if he wasn't such an evasive bullshitter though.
  • I submit that the thing he would not be able to write publicly and which he hasn't already dismissed along with the who what where and when is the why. so there's something that he dare not express about that. most likely, I suggest, is that he believes the holocaust was justified on moral grounds and/or practical ones
  • he sees some benefit in going to that line rather than just telling an easy lie - it would cost him nothing to xcall holocaust deniers mad conspiracy theorists even if he secretly agrees with them
  • he probably wants somebody to take an interest and approach him via PM so that he can give them guidance about further fuhrer reading
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iambiguous
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Re: fascism in America?

Post by iambiguous »

Here we go...

https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/202 ... s-out.html

'Donald Trump and his business empire are currently the subjects of no fewer than five major simultaneous investigations, a truly extraordinary challenge for anyone, let alone a former and possibly future president of the United States. These are complicated investigations, with long and winding paths to resolution. They involve scores of federal and state investigators and witnesses across the country, from politicians eager to shield themselves from scrutiny to employees turning on their colleagues to a former president who knows how to navigate — and manipulate — the legal system like no one else.

'The public has very little visibility into how these investigations are proceeding day by day, as government officials quietly gather evidence and plan their next moves. Any number of unexpected developments — surprise witnesses, hung juries and perhaps even a special counsel empowered to oversee Justice Department investigations — could slow or derail their work. The announcement of Mr. Trump’s candidacy for president does not halt any of these investigations, but it could affect how prosecutors weigh their options, and his uniquely polarizing status could affect how judges and juries resolve any cases that make it to trial. Were he to win the election, he could put an end to any pending federal prosecutions or investigations once in office. Even at this stage, some potential scenarios are possible to discern, including the possibility — however improbable it may seem — that all of the investigations resolve in his favor, with no conviction and no serious legal consequences. Based on interviews with experts and analysis of media reports, as well as of the law itself, here is a close look at some of the paths by which such an outcome could come to pass.'


Now, here, my own assumptions revolve around the belief that to the extent that Trump and MAGA pose a serious threat to American democracy...perhaps even resulting in one or another rendition of American fascism?...it revolves not around an actual insurrection [like the overblown January 6th attempted "coup"] but around the political process itself. What if, in 2024, MAGA really does gain control of all three branches of the federal government. A right-wing Christian Supreme Court, a radical right-wing Congress and a radical right-wing Trump in the White House.

But here I am convinced in turn that the need for fascism by the ruling class "deep state" will only manifest itself in times of true crisis. The economy collapses, social unrest explodes, the covid pandemic comes roaring back with a new, deadlier mutation. Or the war in Ukraine leads to an actual nuclear exchange.

Short of that, there does not appear to be the need for radical change. And those who own and operate the economy will not sanction policies that will result in a great disruption to the cash cows emanating out of Wall Street and K Street.

I just don't see fascism without the need for it. After all, look at the plight of Germany between the two World Wars.

And Trump does not appear to be a Hitler. What the hell does he really believe in at all except Trump?

So, I'm still convinced there are powerful forces behind the curtain here that will ultimately decide Trump's fate. As Reagan's fate was decided during Iran-Contragate, as Nixon's fate was decided after Watergate, as the Warren Commision was put together in the wake of the Kennedy assassination to decide the fate of America.
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