fascism in America?

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Immanuel Can
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Re: fascism in America?

Post by Immanuel Can »

promethean75 wrote: Tue Aug 16, 2022 12:11 am ...even on the worst days of the lenin-style soviets, they nowhere approached the totalitarian autocracy style of a mao or a stalin.
Only because NOBODY approached a Mao. He's the #1, and far worse in numbers killed than anyone else. It's just that it's all "his own" people, so nobody seems to care...
Leninism and Trotskyism as i understand them are the only philosophies faithful to what marx and engels wrote.
:D
Marx isn't some kind of sacred scripture to which you owe some kind of fealty. He wasn't infallible. Not even close.

What Marx wrote was so incredibly, obviously wrong, given how history has actually played out (not to say as well, stupid) that today's Neo-Marxists distinguish themselves from him by referring to Him as "vulgar Marxism." In other words, they regard what Marx said as passe and disproved...because it is...and themselves as better than Marx.

They don't want to be responsible to answer for what Marx actually imagined. Why do you? Why defend something that history itself has shown was wrong-headed already?

People don't "self-actualize through praxis." All of history is not "the history of class struggle." Religion isn't "the opium of the masses." Dialectical materialism is just dumb. And there's no "contradiction" between "labour" and "capitalism" that's going to "dialectically" resolve the Industrial Revolution that is long gone, no workers' paradise impending, and no utopia to follow. Even the basic categories Marx imagined are now obsolete.

Need we go on?
promethean75
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Re: fascism in America?

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And uhnuther thing is there are two drastically different periods of leninism that have to be counted for. The 'war time communism' during and immediately following involvement in WW1 and civil war, and the older NEP period when roughly 80 percent of Russia industry was privately owned... this due to Lenin admitting socialism couldn't develop as rapidly under centralized planning.

But see Marx and Engels already foresaw sumthin like that happening to a country not ripe for revolution. Add to that the set backs of civil and global war and bro. Wtf.
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Immanuel Can
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Re: fascism in America?

Post by Immanuel Can »

promethean75 wrote: Tue Aug 16, 2022 12:50 am But see Marx and Engels already foresaw...
Just about everything they "foresaw" turned out to be dead wrong. That's what happens when people just make stuff up.
promethean75
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Re: fascism in America?

Post by promethean75 »

oh hells no NOW is the time your boy marx would call 'ripe'. forget the guy's name now but he was the dude who designed that computer system used for economic planning in Russia. now check this out. the smart phone on the table in front of you has more computing power than his whole system. so if my theory that the greatest detriment to post-war communism was the inability to streamline communication and data exchange - and it was - then that's a problem, a set back, we wouldn't face in this age.
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iambiguous
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Re: fascism in America?

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Immanuel Can wrote: Mon Aug 15, 2022 11:33 pm
iambiguous wrote: Mon Aug 15, 2022 10:50 pm ...ask any number of pregnant women here in America if the government isn't already fascist.
Ah, the most reliable and unemotional source of information: the pregnant American female. :wink:

Yes, I'll do that. :?
Note to others:

Tell me this isn't a classic example of just how pathetic he can be here.

You know, if I do say so myself.

Try to imagine Jesus Christ coming back at you with something like that. And let's just assume that there is as much proof that He did in fact exist as there is that the Pope resides in the Vatican.
And then this part: https://youtu.be/RU3GiSoJij8

Admittedly, who really knows how seriously to take all this. And not everyone insists that, like you, if they don't think exactly as a red state True Christian is obligated to think about everything, they will burn in Hell for all of eternity.
Immanuel Can wrote: Mon Aug 15, 2022 11:33 pmWell, you took the imagined, projected word of alleged pregnant women very seriously, and now that of Whoopsi Goldbrick: so I'm thinking your bar's not incredibly high. :lol:
Please, what else is there to say?

"Shameless. Absolutely shameless."
promethean75
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Re: fascism in America?

Post by promethean75 »

I'm an optimist here and would rather draw attention to his consistency as a Christian at least in that context pertaining to women.

https://www.openbible.info/topics/men_over_women
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Immanuel Can
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Re: fascism in America?

Post by Immanuel Can »

iambiguous wrote: Tue Aug 16, 2022 1:38 am "Shameless. Absolutely shameless."
Ah, I love that phrase... :lol:

"Unashamed," is more like it. But I'll take the compliment anyway.

Still talking to your imaginary hordes of admirers and eager watchers, I see... :wink:
uwot
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Meanwhile...

Post by uwot »

...in the irony void between Mr Can's ears:
Immanuel Can wrote: Tue Aug 16, 2022 2:23 amStill talking to your imaginary hordes of admirers and eager watchers, I see... :wink:
uwot
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Re: fascism in America?

Post by uwot »

iambiguous wrote: Tue Aug 16, 2022 1:38 am
Immanuel Can wrote: Mon Aug 15, 2022 11:33 pmAh, the most reliable and unemotional source of information: the pregnant American female. :wink:
Yes, I'll do that. :?
Note to others:
Tell me this isn't a classic example of just how pathetic he can be here.
Not really; classic examples of just how pathetic Mr Can can be involve his often pedantic, occasionally idiosyncratic but rarely nuanced definitions. 'National Socialist' being a case in point. Atheist as someone who insists there is no god is another. Nah, the above is a classic example of Mr Can's hypocrisy. As someone quick to call 'ad hominem', he sees no issue with dismissing the opinion of an entire section of the population because of one factor.
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iambiguous
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Re: fascism in America?

Post by iambiguous »

Immanuel Can wrote: Tue Aug 16, 2022 2:23 am
iambiguous wrote: Tue Aug 16, 2022 1:38 am "Shameless. Absolutely shameless."
Ah, I love that phrase... :lol:

"Unashamed," is more like it. But I'll take the compliment anyway.

Still talking to your imaginary hordes of admirers and eager watchers, I see... :wink:
Okay, let's try to nail this down.

It's Judgment Day.

Do you believe that your Christian God embraces the idea that mere mortals down here ought to "Render unto Caesar the things that are Caesar's, and unto God the things that are God's"? At Judgment day what does that really mean? Where was Jesus going with this "for all practical purposes"?

Or does immortality and salvation on the one hand and eternal damnation on the other revolve instead around rendering [in the end] everything unto Him?

As with most things relating to Christianity, it is open to interpretation: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Render_unto_Caesar

And, once again, God fails to make it all abundantly clear.

How are theocracy and fascism not "for all practical purposes" interchangeable in being predicated first and foremost on an authoritarian frame of mind?

Hitler's or the Christian God's.

Also, back to this:

That enormous gap between what you profess to believe about all of this and your capacity to actually demonstrate that all rational and virtuous men and women are obligated to believe the same.

You don't strike me much as an ecumenist here.

So, sure, back to you noting in your videos where what you believe here is demonstrated to be true.

Or another video?
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Immanuel Can
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Re: fascism in America?

Post by Immanuel Can »

iambiguous wrote: Tue Aug 16, 2022 5:49 pm Do you believe that your Christian God embraces the idea that mere mortals down here ought to "Render unto Caesar the things that are Caesar's, and unto God the things that are God's"? At Judgment day what does that really mean? Where was Jesus going with this "for all practical purposes"?
At the time, he was destroying a Pharisaic trap involving taxation, actually. I'm not sure exactly how you're trying to apply that to Judgment Day...
Or does immortality and salvation on the one hand and eternal damnation on the other revolve instead around rendering [in the end] everything unto Him?
When a man renders himself unto God, everything he is and has comes with him.
How are theocracy and fascism not "for all practical purposes" interchangeable in being predicated first and foremost on an authoritarian frame of mind?
Well, "theocracy" is not a Biblical concept prior to the eternal state. So anybody who tries to impose theocracy here and now is not being Biblical. As Jesus said, "My kingdom is not of this world." So you're safe on that score.
Gary Childress
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Re: fascism in America?

Post by Gary Childress »

Immanuel Can wrote: Tue Aug 16, 2022 12:56 am
promethean75 wrote: Tue Aug 16, 2022 12:50 am But see Marx and Engels already foresaw...
Just about everything they "foresaw" turned out to be dead wrong. That's what happens when people just make stuff up.
His predictions of the future seem to have been off, however, I've heard that his analysis of the workings of capitalism is pretty good. I've never read more than a couple pages of Das Capital, but some philosophers seem to swear by it.

I think Marx's heart was in the right place as he championed the exploited in a time when the industrial revolution was doing little more than feeding the wealthy. I would think that ought to count for something.
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Immanuel Can
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Re: fascism in America?

Post by Immanuel Can »

Gary Childress wrote: Wed Aug 17, 2022 1:18 pm
Immanuel Can wrote: Tue Aug 16, 2022 12:56 am
promethean75 wrote: Tue Aug 16, 2022 12:50 am But see Marx and Engels already foresaw...
Just about everything they "foresaw" turned out to be dead wrong. That's what happens when people just make stuff up.
His predictions of the future seem to have been off, however, I've heard that his analysis of the workings of capitalism is pretty good.
I wouldn't agree. It's simplistic and absurd. The proof is the universal failure of Marxist economics. Not only did he fail to describe "capitalism," (a concept he invented, really), he failed badly both in describing a market economy and in understanding human nature.

The guy's pretty much a total failure, actually.
I think Marx's heart was in the right place...
Oh, my gosh! Read one biography of the guy, and you'll know that isn't true!

He was, himself, bourgeois, and a complainer, with a reputation for towering rages whenever he was denied what he wanted. He bilked his friends, like Engels, for money, in order to stay afloat once he had wasted his family fortune. And there is no evidence he ever saw the inside of a factory or workhouse himself. He knew precisely one working class person personally, his housekeeper, and he molested her, and with he produced a bastard son he refused to acknowledge. He was a nasty, nasty man, who thought of himself as too smart, too precious, to wise to have to work, or even to treat other people with basic decency.

Any fair bio will tell you all that. And then they'll go on to talk about what wonderful things he said, in spite of his wretched character. :lol:

All that might be ad hominem to mention, except that you, yourself brought up the question of Marx's "heart." Whatever you do, don't rest anything on that!

Now, the hearts of some of his followers might today be better. That's possible. Maybe they actually mean well for the poor, even if they are pursuing a disastrous course. But his ideas are still wretched, and his "heart"...well, you can see.
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iambiguous
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Re: fascism in America?

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Immanuel Can wrote: Tue Aug 16, 2022 6:25 pm
iambiguous wrote: Tue Aug 16, 2022 5:49 pm Do you believe that your Christian God embraces the idea that mere mortals down here ought to "Render unto Caesar the things that are Caesar's, and unto God the things that are God's"? At Judgment day what does that really mean? Where was Jesus going with this "for all practical purposes"?
At the time, he was destroying a Pharisaic trap involving taxation, actually. I'm not sure exactly how you're trying to apply that to Judgment Day...
Huh? Are you telling me that anything at all that we mere mortals do in our 70 odd year sojourn down here on Earth isn't applicable to Judgment Day? You know, the day when "I" confronts all the rest of eternity: up or down.

And here today, as back then, the government takes the taxes of citizens and, no doubt, uses the money to pursue any number of polices that might be an abomination to your God. How can this all not get ambiguous, convoluted, confusing.

"Mennonite Dale Glass-Hess wrote:

It is inconceivable to me that Jesus would teach that some spheres of human activity lie outside the authority of God. Are we to heed Caesar when he says to go to war or support war-making when Jesus says in other places that we shall not kill? No! My perception of this incident is that Jesus does not answer the question about the morality of paying taxes to Caesar, but that he throws it back on the people to decide."


He throws it back at the people [their value judgments rooted in dasein] but does not give them a definitive answer rooted instead in God's -- His? -- will.

Again, with so much at stake on Judgment Day. It would be like the Nazis giving Jews the power to decide what to do...when Judgment Day for them revolved around the "Final Solution", the death camps.
Or does immortality and salvation on the one hand and eternal damnation on the other revolve instead around rendering [in the end] everything unto Him?
Immanuel Can wrote: Tue Aug 16, 2022 6:25 pmWhen a man renders himself unto God, everything he is and has comes with him.

Right. As with God Himself, this is your idea of clearing things up for us. Dispensing the vaguest of platitudes.
How are theocracy and fascism not "for all practical purposes" interchangeable in being predicated first and foremost on an authoritarian frame of mind?
Immanuel Can wrote: Tue Aug 16, 2022 6:25 pmWell, "theocracy" is not a Biblical concept prior to the eternal state. So anybody who tries to impose theocracy here and now is not being Biblical. As Jesus said, "My kingdom is not of this world." So you're safe on that score.
Oh, sure. Just let mere mortals themselves decide how to connect the dots between before and after the grave. Leaving it all up to those like you to decide who is the True Christian and who is not.

No doubt just as there were those in Nazi Germany who took it upon themselves to decide who was with Hitler and who was not.

And your loving, just and merciful -- omnipotent -- God's reaction to the Nazis? Well, he was rooting for the Allies, right?
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Immanuel Can
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Re: fascism in America?

Post by Immanuel Can »

iambiguous wrote: Thu Aug 18, 2022 5:30 pm
Immanuel Can wrote: Tue Aug 16, 2022 6:25 pm
iambiguous wrote: Tue Aug 16, 2022 5:49 pm Do you believe that your Christian God embraces the idea that mere mortals down here ought to "Render unto Caesar the things that are Caesar's, and unto God the things that are God's"? At Judgment day what does that really mean? Where was Jesus going with this "for all practical purposes"?
At the time, he was destroying a Pharisaic trap involving taxation, actually. I'm not sure exactly how you're trying to apply that to Judgment Day...
Huh? Are you telling me that anything at all that we mere mortals do in our 70 odd year sojourn down here on Earth isn't applicable to Judgment Day?
I'm not trying to "tell" you anything. I'm just answering your question. You can check the context, and you'll know I'm telling you the truth. The "application" you're trying to make isnt' obvious to me. I'm just wanting you to explain it.
Or does immortality and salvation on the one hand and eternal damnation on the other revolve instead around rendering [in the end] everything unto Him?
Immanuel Can wrote: Tue Aug 16, 2022 6:25 pmWhen a man renders himself unto God, everything he is and has comes with him.

Right. As with God Himself, this is your idea of clearing things up for us. Dispensing the vaguest of platitudes.
Something doesn't become "vague" or "platitudinous" merely because you don't personally understand it. But speaking personally, I'm not at all sure that whatever it is you have in mind is right -- which is why I was offering you the chance to clarify.
Oh, sure. Just let mere mortals themselves decide how to connect the dots between before and after the grave.
I would say that God has not done that, for sure. You have all the "dots" you need "connected" for you in Scripture and in Jesus Christ. Whether or not you're able to "connect" them depends on your own attitude -- which appears a little gratutitously cynical and unreceptive to feedback, at the moment, if I might say.

If you have only cynicism to offer, you're wasting your time. You'll find, as Scripture itself says, that God simply chooses not speak to people who take that posture.
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