fascism in America?

How should society be organised, if at all?

Moderators: AMod, iMod

User avatar
henry quirk
Posts: 14706
Joined: Fri May 09, 2008 8:07 pm
Location: Right here, a little less busy.

Re: fascism in America?

Post by henry quirk »

Belinda wrote: Mon Sep 05, 2022 4:12 pm
henry quirk wrote: Mon Sep 05, 2022 1:21 pm
What Henry and IC have in common is they both believe that there is an actual animating force which is a thing.
Yes. The mind, spirit, soul (pick your placeholder).
Any of the above. People used to believe in the vital spark or life force.
Some of us atavists still do.
User avatar
iambiguous
Posts: 7208
Joined: Mon Nov 22, 2010 10:23 pm

Re: fascism in America?

Post by iambiguous »

henry quirk wrote: Mon Sep 05, 2022 1:19 pm
Well, for much the same reason that objectivists of your ilk have attempted to do so down through the years: to thump me as effortlessly as I thump them.
That's no answer. And: you've thumped no one here (and have been thumped repeatedly).
Note to others:

Politics aside, you decide. :wink:

Look, there are those among us who fiercely insist on correct answers when the questions revolve around things like God and fascism. Ever and always their own.

And even though henry will grudgingly admit that in the past he has been wrong about his own answers to the big questions like this, don't let that fool you.

He's about as rabid an objectivist as you are ever likely to come upon in a forum like this.

On the other hand, in my view, he is intelligent enough to finally accept the points I'm raising regarding objectivism itself. Maybe not in my lifetime but perhaps in yours.

He can then liberate himself from that suffocating frame of mind in which everything he does has to revolve around the "right answers". The stifling assumption that the is/ought world itself becomes just one adjunct of the either/or world. My way or the highway, one of us or one of them.

Trump or else?
Unless, of course, I'm wrong.
henry quirk wrote: Mon Sep 05, 2022 1:19 pmYou are. As usual.
Indeed, I may well be. And accepting that about things like God and fascism and guns and abortion is what frees me -- psychologically and otherwise -- to pursue options that the objectivists have banished from their own suppressed, "by the book" life.

Of course, that has its own debilitating facets too.
User avatar
iambiguous
Posts: 7208
Joined: Mon Nov 22, 2010 10:23 pm

Re: fascism in America?

Post by iambiguous »

henry quirk wrote: Mon Sep 05, 2022 1:21 pm
What Henry and IC have in common is they both believe that there is an actual animating force which is a thing.
Yes. The mind, spirit, soul (pick your placeholder).
Again, I'm considerably less interested in what they believe here and more intrigued by what they can demonstrate to us that all rational and virtuous men and women are obligated to believe in turn. About God. About fascism. About any "conflicting good".

Also, I'm fascinated more not by what any of us come to believe about them, but how, given the life we lived, we come existentially to embrace one set of normative prejudices rather than another.

Here, however, in my own subjective, "rooted in dasein" personal opinion, both henry and IC become Mr. Wiggle.

Well, at least in their exchanges with me.
User avatar
henry quirk
Posts: 14706
Joined: Fri May 09, 2008 8:07 pm
Location: Right here, a little less busy.

Re: fascism in America?

Post by henry quirk »

I'm considerably less interested...
Nobody cares.
User avatar
iambiguous
Posts: 7208
Joined: Mon Nov 22, 2010 10:23 pm

Re: fascism in America?

Post by iambiguous »

Gary Childress wrote: Mon Sep 05, 2022 2:29 am The world is what it is for all to observe. And either there is a God or there is not. From that point, we can only wonder.
That's certainly true. I just tend to shift the discussion from what we believe about things like God and fascism to what we can demonstrate [even to ourselves] is true about them. Objectively true as some say.

And, in turn, to probe what [existentially] predisposes us to embrace one set of beliefs rather than another...given the actual life we live. A life that can be very, very different from the lives that others here live.

Then the part where philosophers accept that very different lives out in very different worlds understood in very different ways can precipitate very different value judgments. The part where they ask themselves [in places like this] whether, given the technical tools at their disposal, it is possible for philosophers to propound demonstrable arguments regarding how all rational men and women are obligated to think about God and fascism.
Gary Childress wrote: Mon Sep 05, 2022 2:29 am And if there is God, then either God is OK with certain behaviors or else s/he is not. I assume things like murder, jealousy, anger, greed, lust and cheating on a spouse would not be OK. But that might just be me I suppose. Or what do you think a God is (would be) or isn't (wouldn't be) OK with?
Well, my point here is trying explain how a God said to be loving, just and merciful is okay Himself with...
...an endless procession of earthquakes and volcanic eruptions and tornadoes and hurricanes and great floods and great droughts and great fires and deadly viral and bacterial plagues and miscarriages and hundreds and hundreds of medical and mental afflictions and extinction events...making life on Earth a living hell for countless millions of men, women and children down through the ages.
What's Hitler next to God?

Or, sure, cue those like Harold Kushner. Or take a leap of faith to God's "mysterious ways".

Whatever most comforts and consoles folks is the way it usually works.
User avatar
iambiguous
Posts: 7208
Joined: Mon Nov 22, 2010 10:23 pm

Re: fascism in America?

Post by iambiguous »

henry quirk wrote: Mon Sep 05, 2022 5:40 pm
I'm considerably less interested...
Nobody cares.
So much more to point [mine, for example], is how I continue to reduce you down to ridiculous, substanceless posts like this one.

Look, if you're going down, at least go down swinging. 8)
Gary Childress
Posts: 8117
Joined: Sun Sep 25, 2011 3:08 pm
Location: Retirement Home for foolosophers

Re: fascism in America?

Post by Gary Childress »

iambiguous wrote: Mon Sep 05, 2022 6:47 pm What's Hitler next to God?

Or, sure, cue those like Harold Kushner. Or take a leap of faith to God's "mysterious ways".

Whatever most comforts and consoles folks is the way it usually works.
Oh. I'm there with you on that one. It's difficult to reconcile what happens here on Earth with the idea of there being a loving God. But I guess the alternative (no God at all) is pretty scary as well. At least having a God who allegedly occasionally jumps in to proverbially part the waters when it's do or die must be better than no God at all. At least a person can maybe beg or plead with a sentient overlord more so than with an indifferent abyss. Otherwise, there's just too much that can go wrong for our fragile little species here on this delicate little planet. But, I guess, so far, things haven't been catastrophically bad for us as a species, at least.
Gary Childress
Posts: 8117
Joined: Sun Sep 25, 2011 3:08 pm
Location: Retirement Home for foolosophers

Re: fascism in America?

Post by Gary Childress »

Gary Childress wrote: Mon Sep 05, 2022 7:13 pm
iambiguous wrote: Mon Sep 05, 2022 6:47 pm What's Hitler next to God?

Or, sure, cue those like Harold Kushner. Or take a leap of faith to God's "mysterious ways".

Whatever most comforts and consoles folks is the way it usually works.
Oh. I'm there with you on that one. It's difficult to reconcile what happens here on Earth with the idea of there being a loving God. But I guess the alternative (no God at all) is pretty scary as well. At least having a God who allegedly occasionally jumps in to proverbially part the waters when it's do or die must be better than no God at all. At least a person can maybe beg or plead with a sentient overlord more so than with an indifferent abyss. Otherwise, there's just too much that can go wrong for our fragile little species here on this delicate little planet. But, I guess, so far, things haven't been catastrophically bad for us as a species, at least.
Let me add, knock on wood to that last sentence.
User avatar
iambiguous
Posts: 7208
Joined: Mon Nov 22, 2010 10:23 pm

Re: fascism in America?

Post by iambiguous »

Gary Childress wrote: Mon Sep 05, 2022 7:13 pm
iambiguous wrote: Mon Sep 05, 2022 6:47 pm What's Hitler next to God?

Or, sure, cue those like Harold Kushner. Or take a leap of faith to God's "mysterious ways".

Whatever most comforts and consoles folks is the way it usually works.
Oh. I'm there with you on that one. It's difficult to reconcile what happens here on Earth with the idea of there being a loving God. But I guess the alternative (no God at all) is pretty scary as well.
Scary and downright grim.

No God, and all the terrible things that happen or can happen to us are but more manifestations of the "brute facticity" embedded in an essentially meaningless and purposeless world.

And then that Woody Allen joke: “the food is terrible—and such small portions!”

The same thing with life for some. Tired of living but scared of dying.

Or this rendition of it: https://youtu.be/uRduB40_w7k
Gary Childress wrote: Mon Sep 05, 2022 7:13 pmAt least having a God who allegedly occasionally jumps in to proverbially part the waters when it's do or die must be better than no God at all. At least a person can maybe beg or plead with a sentient overlord more so than with an indifferent abyss. Otherwise, there's just too much that can go wrong for our fragile little species here on this delicate little planet. But, I guess, so far, things haven't been catastrophically bad for us as a species, at least.
From my frame of mind, if someone is able to believe in God [and I've known some very, very intelligent men and women who have...including myself once] then good for them. As long as they are not into insisting that others must share their own faith...or else. The Us vs. Them types who impose fatwas on the infidels.

The same with fascists...when they gain access to power.
User avatar
henry quirk
Posts: 14706
Joined: Fri May 09, 2008 8:07 pm
Location: Right here, a little less busy.

Re: fascism in America?

Post by henry quirk »

reduce
All you've reduced is my need, with you, to use a lotta words.
going down
That's your department. I recommend: knee pads.
User avatar
iambiguous
Posts: 7208
Joined: Mon Nov 22, 2010 10:23 pm

Re: fascism in America?

Post by iambiguous »

henry quirk wrote: Mon Sep 05, 2022 11:18 pm
reduce
All you've reduced is my need, with you, to use a lotta words.
going down
That's your department. I recommend: knee pads.
Again, of his own volition in a free will world, he chooses to post things like this. And is not in least embarrassed by it.

That in and of itself speaks volumes. This would be mortifying even over at The New ILP!!

Next up:

His next post...

MORON!
User avatar
henry quirk
Posts: 14706
Joined: Fri May 09, 2008 8:07 pm
Location: Right here, a little less busy.

Re: fascism in America?

Post by henry quirk »

Again, of his own volition in a free will world, he chooses to post things like this.
Yep.
And is not in least embarrassed by it.
Nope.
User avatar
iambiguous
Posts: 7208
Joined: Mon Nov 22, 2010 10:23 pm

Re: fascism in America?

Post by iambiguous »

henry quirk wrote: Mon Sep 05, 2022 11:35 pm
Again, of his own volition in a free will world, he chooses to post things like this.
Yep.
And is not in least embarrassed by it.
Nope.
Allow me please to translate this for you:

MORON!

[unless of course it's the other way around]
User avatar
henry quirk
Posts: 14706
Joined: Fri May 09, 2008 8:07 pm
Location: Right here, a little less busy.

Re: fascism in America?

Post by henry quirk »

MORON!

Yes, you are... 👍
User avatar
iambiguous
Posts: 7208
Joined: Mon Nov 22, 2010 10:23 pm

Re: fascism in America?

Post by iambiguous »

henry quirk wrote: Mon Sep 05, 2022 11:50 pm MORON!

Yes, you are... 👍
"Like shooting fish in a barrel". 8)
Post Reply