fascism in America?

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FlashDangerpants
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Re: fascism in America?

Post by FlashDangerpants »

Alexis Jacobi wrote: Wed Sep 28, 2022 12:29 pm
FlashDangerpants wrote: Wed Sep 28, 2022 8:03 amPrecisely which piece of the holocaust denial 'interpretation' (your term) are you endorsing today?
What is your background in the study of the Shoah and how has your understanding of it been formed? What I am asking for is the list of all the titles you have read. Please be detailed and ‘precise’.
I'm really just asking you to explain what "The Shoah narrative has some fictional elements which are still contested" means. There is no table turning move for you, just answer the question.
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Alexis Jacobi
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Re: fascism in America?

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FlashDangerpants wrote: Wed Sep 28, 2022 12:37 pm
Alexis Jacobi wrote: Wed Sep 28, 2022 12:29 pm
FlashDangerpants wrote: Wed Sep 28, 2022 8:03 amPrecisely which piece of the holocaust denial 'interpretation' (your term) are you endorsing today?
What is your background in the study of the Shoah and how has your understanding of it been formed? What I am asking for is the list of all the titles you have read. Please be detailed and ‘precise’.
I'm really just asking you to explain what "The Shoah narrative has some fictional elements which are still contested" means. There is no table turning move for you, just answer the question.
I understood. And I want you to indicate what your background is in the study of the Shoah. Post here the list of titles that you have read.

Shall I assume that you have some background or is it more likely you have none at all?
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FlashDangerpants
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Re: fascism in America?

Post by FlashDangerpants »

Alexis Jacobi wrote: Wed Sep 28, 2022 12:41 pm
FlashDangerpants wrote: Wed Sep 28, 2022 12:37 pm
Alexis Jacobi wrote: Wed Sep 28, 2022 12:29 pm
What is your background in the study of the Shoah and how has your understanding of it been formed? What I am asking for is the list of all the titles you have read. Please be detailed and ‘precise’.
I'm really just asking you to explain what "The Shoah narrative has some fictional elements which are still contested" means. There is no table turning move for you, just answer the question.
I understood. And I want you to indicate what your background is in the study of the Shoah. Post here the list of titles that you have read.

Shall I assume that you have some background or is it more likely you have none at all?
Explain please for the layman with only a generic understanding of the holocaust.
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Alexis Jacobi
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Re: fascism in America?

Post by Alexis Jacobi »

FlashDangerpants wrote: Wed Sep 28, 2022 12:46 pm Explain please for the layman with only a generic understanding of the holocaust.
If you want something from me — that is some cooperation in your efforts to cast aspersions on my views and my means of forming my views — you need also to be forthcoming.

What is your background in the study of the Shoah? How have your views been formed? Detail what ‘generic understanding’ means.

The real issue here is not one detail about this event, but rather that in our world narratives are created and given purpose. Examine any historical event of scale and consequence.
promethean75
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Re: fascism in America?

Post by promethean75 »

I'm not one of those holocaust deniers but when i wuz in my twenties i wuz a halo cost denier. Some friends and i got the new xbox at the time (the 360) and when halo came out it wuz like sixty fuckin dollars. no way am I payin that.
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FlashDangerpants
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Re: fascism in America?

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Alexis Jacobi wrote: Wed Sep 28, 2022 1:07 am
FlashDangerpants wrote: Wed Sep 28, 2022 12:53 am Why not do 3 at once? Why not do those 3?
They are absurd conspiracy theories are they not?
The alien theory you can safely dismiss.

So too the flat-earth theory.

The Shoah narrative has some fictional elements which are still contested. But the general picture (the destruction of European Jewry) is a certainty.

The manipulation of historical narrative is simply put par for the course.

So each theory (your term) would need to be examined one by one. Our view of history has been tweaked and molded. But I assume you know this.
Please explain what the highlighted sentence actually means.
There is no need to make this about me, it is about that sentence.
Gary Childress
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Re: fascism in America?

Post by Gary Childress »

FlashDangerpants wrote: Wed Sep 28, 2022 1:01 pm
Alexis Jacobi wrote: Wed Sep 28, 2022 1:07 am
FlashDangerpants wrote: Wed Sep 28, 2022 12:53 am Why not do 3 at once? Why not do those 3?
They are absurd conspiracy theories are they not?
The alien theory you can safely dismiss.

So too the flat-earth theory.

The Shoah narrative has some fictional elements which are still contested. But the general picture (the destruction of European Jewry) is a certainty.

The manipulation of historical narrative is simply put par for the course.

So each theory (your term) would need to be examined one by one. Our view of history has been tweaked and molded. But I assume you know this.
Please explain what the highlighted sentence actually means.
There is no need to make this about me, it is about that sentence.
I could be wrong, but it looks to me like he's saying that we know that European Jewry was all but destroyed completely by the holocaust, however, understanding the causes and how to prevent them from fully repeating is NOT something anyone knows for sure.

In my view, in the final analysis, Hitler was guilty of:

1. Murder (per what happened as a result of his aggressive military policies)
2. Genocide (per what happened during his domestic policies)

Those are Hitler's most serious crimes summed up. And those crimes ought not be repeated again (although, they have been repeated by many governments and peoples, including my own--the US/American--and including Russia). Why they keep happening is not entirely clear to me because we all know they are wrong yet something seems to keep us doing them over and over again (as evidenced by all the wars and genocides that still happen in the world).
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Alexis Jacobi
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Re: fascism in America?

Post by Alexis Jacobi »

FlashDangerpants wrote: Wed Sep 28, 2022 1:01 pm Please explain what the highlighted sentence actually means.

There is no need to make this about me, it is about that sentence.
I've been on this forum, and other forums, long enough to be able to recognize devious tactics in argumentation. We should all become aware of them. If devious is too strong then other words can be substituted. I began on this thread with an attempt to give a fuller impression, my impression in any case, in respect to the question about fascism in America. So I presented sources where, if one were interested, one could read first-hand accounts by those people who are considered *opinion leaders* among the Dissident Right.

Now, the following needs to be said (because it is true): in today's climate it is not possible to have fair, considered, careful and serious discussions about many of the events of our day because of the tendency to 'rhetorically complicate' conversations by introducing, and asserting a priori opinions and assertions. So here, by taking a 'balanced' tack in regard to those of the American Dissident Right, and talking about what they believe and why they believe it in a calm and direct manner, this manner, this carefulness or fairness, is seen as 'complicity'. Therefore, what is communicated (in this instance by Flash) is that no careful and balanced conversation will be allowed. Obviously, and as everyone is aware, these sorts of *conversations* are pseudo-conversations. They seem to serve some other function for those who engage in this way.

And it is that that interests me more than the convention haggling and bickering that are evident on all threads here. I am interested in the techniques of hysterical, underhanded argumentation for a number of reasons. First, that these techniques are related to propaganda-techniques. For example the sort of 'branding' of an idea, view or opinion which the brander opposes. So here, as all can see (should see in any case) by speaking cooly and without overt condemnation of exponents of the American Dissident Right I have been branded as complicit in their project (whatever that project actually is which is, of course, not well known to those who brand!)

Now the greater issue is that this is how ideas and perceptions are mediated in an environment of mass-communication today. It is that environment itself, that noisy environment, and that poisonous environment, that is ultra-common today. What this points back to is people who are, let's say, psychologically contaminated. That is to say that their psychological status, being or situation immediately intrudes when they face a controversial issue or a mediated presentation of that issue.

The events of Charlottesville could be an excellent example of the framing I speak of (by mass-media) and the introduction and intrusion of psychological content (hot opinions, a priori opinions, opinions determined by public relations/propaganda techniques). So my assertion is that one must, as a starting point, decline to engage in this way, but also to reconstitute one's entire manner of perceiving such techniques and tactics in the context of social manipulation. Right there, I assert, so many people (for example those who write on this forum) will be eliminated from the possibility offered here. Therefore, they need (in my opinion) to ask many different questions about their own foundations in perception.

It is true, Flash, that in the largest context this is not about you. And yet it really is, here at least, very much about you. You are the operative agent of your own tactics in argumentation. No one else is controlling you or directing you. It's all you here. Yet that statement must be modified: you act rather like Mass Man -- a man who has been informed, through propaganda, through education, or perhaps simply through absorption (?), of a set of opinions and perspectives that are 'triggered' in you when certain things are said or suggested. Any deviation from the 'standard line' (or the party line) calls forth in you, and from you, an absolute and sheer obstinacy and recalcitrance.

In short it calls forth 'hysterical reaction'.

What I resolve to do is to avoid that altogether.

So this is the direction that I will go in this conversation. I'll try to outline it. This sort of Mass Man, this man who has no foundation of study in contemporary events or in historical events, is really not at all capable of forming opinions that are genuine. That Man (capitalized to indicate a generality) is informed by powerful formatters of narratives that determine his *opinions* and his *reactions*. That hysterical man becomes, moreover, a tool or a mechanism to be exploited by those people and entities who work to determine mass opinion. That Man, and I say by definition, is incapable of truly steering himself and will always be steered by others. The question then becomes who. Who will determine him and to what ends?

So I will say that the issue of fascism should indeed be examined, but from an open-minded perspective. Fascism is a hot word and as I say it will not help us much to define what in fact is being referred to! But if one focuses on, say, the techniques of manipulation of 'the mass man' and the 'masses' generally, and if one does this intelligently and fairly, one will have at least a starting point to examine mass social and state manipulation and the highly negative outcomes that have resulted from this in the past and, it would seem, are hard on the threshold today.

Where do you stand in relation to the issues and problems I have outlined Mr Flash? Are you capable of giving even a glossary report?
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FlashDangerpants
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Re: fascism in America?

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Alexis Jacobi wrote: Wed Sep 28, 2022 1:07 am
FlashDangerpants wrote: Wed Sep 28, 2022 12:53 am Why not do 3 at once? Why not do those 3?
They are absurd conspiracy theories are they not?
The alien theory you can safely dismiss.

So too the flat-earth theory.

The Shoah narrative has some fictional elements which are still contested. But the general picture (the destruction of European Jewry) is a certainty.

The manipulation of historical narrative is simply put par for the course.

So each theory (your term) would need to be examined one by one. Our view of history has been tweaked and molded. But I assume you know this.
Really I am just asking you what that one sentence means.
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Alexis Jacobi
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Re: fascism in America?

Post by Alexis Jacobi »

promethean75 wrote: Wed Sep 28, 2022 1:01 pm I'm not one of those holocaust deniers but when i wuz in my twenties i wuz a halo cost denier. Some friends and i got the new xbox at the time (the 360) and when halo came out it wuz like sixty fuckin dollars. no way am I payin that.
There is a contradiction here I must point out -- in service to the spirit of clarity and honesty. You say 'your friends an I' got the new Xbox. But you refused to pay. So what did you do? Did your friend pay with your promise to pay him back? Did you filch on him?
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Alexis Jacobi
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Re: fascism in America?

Post by Alexis Jacobi »

FlashDangerpants wrote: Wed Sep 28, 2022 2:22 pm Really I am just asking you what that one sentence means.
Then I reckon you are not getting the answer you feel you deserve?

Will you be able to move, in any way, through the dilemma you face? What is the next step Flash?
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FlashDangerpants
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Re: fascism in America?

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Alexis Jacobi wrote: Wed Sep 28, 2022 2:27 pm
FlashDangerpants wrote: Wed Sep 28, 2022 2:22 pm Really I am just asking you what that one sentence means.
Then I reckon you are not getting the answer you feel you deserve?

Will you be able to move, in any way, through the dilemma you face? What is the next step Flash?
Well I raised the question in relation to why I am not allowed to refer to some stuff as conspircy theories.

So as things stand, it seems I can refer to flat Earthers as madcap conspiracy nutters because they are nuts and there is nothing to their theory.
And I can dismiss notions that the illuminati conspired with aliens to cover up who built the pyramids on the same basis.

I really assumed you would just heave the holocaust deniers into the same bucket, but for reasons you aren't willing to explain, apparently I can't write them off as just nutters with a senseless conspiracy theory.

And obviously I'm not allowed to do that with great replacement theorists because you think they are correct in some significant manner.

So what's the point of avoifing the term conpiracy theory? Your alternatives are just politically correct euphemistic theatre. The real problem is that you subscribe to some of these theories, no euphemism is going to help with that.
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FlashDangerpants
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Re: fascism in America?

Post by FlashDangerpants »

Are you one of those people who believes the Americans built the ovens at Auschwitz by the way?
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Alexis Jacobi
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Re: fascism in America?

Post by Alexis Jacobi »

FlashDangerpants wrote: Wed Sep 28, 2022 2:34 pm Well I raised the question in relation to why I am not allowed to refer to some stuff as conspircy theories.

So as things stand, it seems I can refer to flat Earthers as madcap conspiracy nutters because they are nuts and there is nothing to their theory.
And I can dismiss notions that the illuminati conspired with aliens to cover up who built the pyramids on the same basis.

I really assumed you would just heave the holocaust deniers into the same bucket, but for reasons you aren't willing to explain, apparently I can't write them off as just nutters with a senseless conspiracy theory.

And obviously I'm not allowed to do that with great replacement theorists because you think they are correct in some significant manner.

So what's the point of avoifing the term conpiracy theory? Your alternatives are just politically correct euphemistic theatre. The real problem is that you subscribe to some of these theories, no euphemism is going to help with that.
Let us resolve a previous issue. I offered two videos that supported the notion of replacement or involvement in activism to reconstitute or alter a nation's demographics. One was by an American Jew who migrated to Israel. She opened an education center in Sweden, with some funding provided by the Swedish government, and educates people (I assume Swedish people) in becoming multi-cultural (her term). Her stated stance is that if Europe does not do this Europe will not survive.

The second video was a snippet from a speech by Joe Biden (before he was president). He describes his support for 'unrelenting waves of immigration'. Waves of immigration that *will not stop* according to him.

If those fellows at Charlottesville chanted 'You will not replace us!' and/or 'Jews will not replace us!' can you at the least see how it is, or why it is, that they had or have the opinion or perception that someone is working to *replace* them?

And if they did believe that, would you say that they are believing a 'conspiracy theory' or perceiving something to be truthful or factual?

And if yes, why is it do you think that Joe Biden is representing such a conspiracy theory? Why Barabara Spectre? And can you be sure that it is a 'conspiracy theory'? (Meaning a paranoid theory with no grounding in reality).
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Alexis Jacobi
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Re: fascism in America?

Post by Alexis Jacobi »

FlashDangerpants wrote: Wed Sep 28, 2022 2:34 pm I really assumed you would just heave the holocaust deniers into the same bucket, but for reasons you aren't willing to explain, apparently I can't write them off as just nutters with a senseless conspiracy theory.
The nutter I am dealing with right now, and the nutter's nuttery, is simply not visible to you quite yet. But keep at it.
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