fascism in America?

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FlashDangerpants
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Re: fascism in America?

Post by FlashDangerpants »

Alexis Jacobi wrote: Tue Sep 27, 2022 8:40 pm
FlashDangerpants wrote: Tue Sep 27, 2022 6:33 pm I don't know why you are trying to make out like you are sidestepping some subtle trap here. It should be simple to agree that there is a conspiracy theory, and that two of the people you cited as sources before are peddlers of that conspiracy theory, and the content of that conspiracy theory is that there is a secret plot by Jews to replace white people.
This is a curious tack.

So Barbara Spectre who defines herself as one engaged in bringing multi-culturalism to Europe, and who defines this as being a Jewish project for which Jews will be resented, and who works under grants provided by the Swedish government to educate people about this project, is a conspiracy theorist?

(Biden of course has formed his opinions through different means and, in any case, is not a Jew).
There's no point wasting my time with some diversion to some other conspiracy theorist nutter. You are wrong to suppose that I consider that weird fucknut to be doing good work. I don't have the same ethno-nationalist assumptions that you appear to take for granted. All of your racial assumptions in that post are racist though.
What is the other conspiracy nutter theory?

Since I cannot know any opinion of yours until I ask you for it, or you reveal it, I would have had no idea how you view what Barbara Spectre said in that video. Now you tell me that you regard her as a weird fuckwit -- but why? If she is not doing good work is she doing bad work?

What ethno-nationalist assumptions are you referring to? What do you mean by ethno-nationalist? What specific racial assumptions are racist? Why?
Anyway, you are clearly a conspiracy theorist, and you have made it clear that you do believe that white people are being replaced. So the question I am currently asking is whether you blame Jews for this?
Blaming an entire people for some specific activity or social stance seems absurd to me. What I think you should be asking is Are there specific Jews who advocate for (in this case) the multi-culturalism that Spectre refers to? And if there are specific Jews who are activists in this area, on what 'philosophy' or set of assumptions or beliefs do they base their activism?

I referred to Spectre because you mentioned those fellows in Charlottesville what chanted "You will not replace us!" and at times "Jews will not replace us!"

At the very least we have discovered two sources for their belief/apprehension that they are being 'replaced'.
But also, why not just be ok with people marrying who they want to marry and raising families with no particular regard for racial heritages at all? Like normal people are.
Actually what you call 'normal people' are an outcome of rather long processes of social engineering. Meaning that there were activists and social engineers whose activism changed how certain peoples felt about the preservation of their ethnic heritage. I assume you are English. Certainly social engineering of social attitudes have been a large part of education processes for 50 years or more.

Is that a 'good'? If you say yes, as I assume you will, then you likely have a social attitude, and possibly a social project, that is similar to that of Spectre. You support her activism therefore or in any case do not have reasons to condemn it. Why do you see her as a fuckwit nutter?

It also has to be said that not all agree that ethnic heritage and its preservation -- as such -- is understood to be something bad or morally wrong. Is it morally wrong in your view for people -- a given people -- to desire to preserve their ethnic heritage?
Anyway, you are clearly a conspiracy theorist, and you have made it clear that you do believe that white people are being replaced.
Let me ask this question. If in 1965 the US was "90% European stock" and it is now "65% European stock" do you think it is fair to use the word 'replaced'? If that is not the right word, what word or term is the right one in your view?
Ok to be fair I didn't really bother with the video after seeing the absurd title it had...
"Barbara Lerner Spectre calls for destruction of Christian European ethnic societies"
I don't really see why she is linking multiculturalism to jews but I don't give a fuck about her either way and I really don't get what point you are trying to make with her.

The white people aren't being forced off of any land, they aren't being shipped abroad, and therefore they aren't being replaced.
promethean75
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Re: fascism in America?

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You didn't watch the video I posted months ago, AJ? Bro. Always watch the videos I link to in any given thread becuz my videos are fundamental to PN's intellectual development.

https://youtu.be/VUbxVfSqtt8
promethean75
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Re: fascism in America?

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... oh and i realize this discussion is about Mexican and American populations and migration trends while the video is about Europe. But the principle is the same. Just people moving around on the face of the planet. In the planet too if we're counting miners and cavers.
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Alexis Jacobi
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Re: fascism in America?

Post by Alexis Jacobi »

promethean75 wrote: Tue Sep 27, 2022 9:02 pm You didn't watch the video I posted months ago, AJ? Bro. Always watch the videos I link to in any given thread becuz my videos are fundamental to PN's intellectual development.

https://youtu.be/VUbxVfSqtt8
Yes, I remember seeing that video. I watched a good part of it and understand his method of reasoning and his counter-assertion.

Did you post it as a refutation of *replacement theory*?
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Alexis Jacobi
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Re: fascism in America?

Post by Alexis Jacobi »

promethean75 wrote: Tue Sep 27, 2022 9:05 pm ... oh and i realize this discussion is about Mexican and American populations and migration trends while the video is about Europe. But the principle is the same. Just people moving around on the face of the planet. In the planet too if we're counting miners and cavers.
In my experience reading the writings of those of the Ultra-Right — this is a term that describes ideas and attitudes that just a short while ago were normal and accepted ideas — their entire set of concerns needs to be understood. Race and ethnic composition is one part of larger group of concerns.

But there are critical and activist titles such as Kathleen Belew’s Bring The War Home (she is very progressive and left-leaning) that are useful for understanding a general stance common today. So is Michael Barkun’s Religion and the Racist Right — The Origins of the Christian Identity Movement.

The factual truth is that the founders of the country held general ideas that would be considered ultra-radical and Nazi-like. And those on the present Radical or Dissident Right hold to ideas more similar to those founders.

Thus, in my view, the present ideological currents that are socially radical (hyper-liberal, progressive, even revolutionary) must be studied (their material read first hand) to glean-out the operative tenets.

The reason? To better understand the ideas that are ripping the social fabric. Divisions that lead to civil conflicts and insuperable political and social problems.
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Alexis Jacobi
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Re: fascism in America?

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FlashDangerpants wrote: Tue Sep 27, 2022 8:53 pmOk to be fair I didn't really bother with the video after seeing the absurd title it had..."Barbara Lerner Spectre calls for destruction of Christian European ethnic societies"

I don't really see why she is linking multiculturalism to jews but I don't give a fuck about her either way and I really don't get what point you are trying to make with her.
The point was very simple. You referred to fellows in Charlottesville chanting "Jews will not replace us" (modified from "You will not replace us" -- both were chanted) and I sought to give you some background as to why they have this idea, and also where it comes from. So I submitted two videos, one of Spectre and one of Biden which are among a group that circulate in those circles.

If you do not see why she links Jews and Jewishness to the issue of social and cultural engineering then she would surely be a person you'd want to interview or who could be interviewed to hear her views and to understand her predicates.

I do believe I understand that you cannot grasp why these things could be talked about fruitfully. But what you cannot or don't want to understand does not mean, obviously, that it is not a worthwhile topic to examine.

Your attitude though is common. The purpose of it? To shut down conversation by casting aspersions on it through tossing about those hot rhetorical terms.
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FlashDangerpants
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Re: fascism in America?

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Alexis Jacobi wrote: Tue Sep 27, 2022 3:28 pm
FlashDangerpants wrote: Tue Sep 27, 2022 3:02 pm You can climb down off that cross now, nobody's impressed. In that video you linked Eatwell is describing the populist right in much the same terms I would .... a bunch of conspiracy theorists. But you accuse him of bias, deny that their stuff is .... ‘conspiracy theories’ or being un-genuine. And you also imply that he might secretly agree but cannot say so because (of course) of some sort of conspiracy to destroy people who say such things.
Though someone, in some possible world, must be slightly impressed, no? (Joke).

Having read some of Eatwell's books I like and appreciate him. But he is, obviously, located within a certain posture. His posture, of course, can be seen and described. If you see things in much the same terms as Eatwell that is fine, as far as it goes. But it does not necessarily mean that your view or his view is 'correct' nor bias-free. Eatwell has an audience and sells his books to that audience. And he functions within a certain political climate. The same is true for, say, Jordan Peterson or Candice Owens (or James Lindsay). They carve out a space for themselves and develop a 'product'.

I only say it is wise to see this.
So you are clearly a conspiracy theorist, You have outed yourself that much already. But it's ok, we have other populist right wing conspiracy theorists already, so you can fit right in. We now just need to work out which is your conspiracy, because you are attempting to camouflage that beneath a stifling layer of euphemisms.
Nice one! But you are using a term which is simply too hot. Too contaminated. The function of those terms is to shut down, vilify and influence your readership to adopt the negative view that you operate from. So you hope, I gather, that your term will do your arguing for you?

I am aware of all sorts of different ideas and views. But generally I hold back from 'outright belief' in any of them since, as it is, it is far to easy to be tricked. I assert my frame of mind is a better one than that which you seem to have and to work with.
So it's entirely reasonable to seek clarification on whether you are going all in with the jews thing in that conspiracy stuff. Your other sources weren't high quality academics like Eatwell after all, they are notorious anti-semitic authors who accuse the jews of organising a conspiracy to undermine white folks by causing them to intermingle with other races.
But you did not *seek clarification*. Examine what you wrote. You cast aspersions. Very different.

Again I am aware of the arguments of people like Kevin MacDonald and many others. I am aware of many ranges of idea and opinion that inform the perspectives that people present to be believed and taken seriously. Yet I do not participate here as a broadcaster of my own particular or peculiar opinions. It is more interesting, in my view, to put all perspectives out on the table for examination.

What I think you should notice, or what you could notice, is the a priori positions that you yourself operate from. That is usually how these conversations (on forums) take shape, no? They are not really conversations of any sort at all. They are bicker-sessions and I suppose that such bickering serves a function for those who engage in it. I avoid it altogether though.
But you accuse him of bias, deny that their stuff is .... ‘conspiracy theories’ or being un-genuine. And you also imply that he might secretly agree but cannot say so because (of course) of some sort of conspiracy to destroy people who say such things.
I'd express it differently. I say that all thought, all expression of ideas, are extremely monitored and often curtailed by the forces of the 'politically correct'. How this came about (in our culture and in our present) can and should be examined.

The term 'conspiracy theory' is too contaminated to be of use.

And certainly people who are on the public stage are very aware of what things can be said, and what things cannot be said. One slip-up and -- *poof* -- one's career is ruined. One's books don't sell. One is not invited back. One is 'cancelled'. One is shunned.

Surely you are aware of this, right?
So, let's take those chaps who wandered around Chrlottesville with tiki torches shouting "The Jews Will No Replace Us" as an example.
They have a theory that they are very committed to, that a cabal of international jews who run the world wants to replace them (white people specifically) with imported brown people because of reasons we may come back to later.

That's a theory about a global conspiracy. Why not call that a conspiracy theory?
And while we are at it, let's just cover whether you agree it's a really stupid one.


^^^ That's what I was asking.
I want to know why you are not able to just accept that the conspiratorial theorising about international jewry meddling in demographics constitutes a conspiracy theory.

I'm used to the deflection tactics, Immanuel Can has already tried them all on me.
promethean75
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Re: fascism in America?

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"The reason? To better understand the ideas that are ripping the social fabric. Divisions that lead to civil conflicts and insuperable political and social problems."

if by 'ripping' you mean changing human culture through social and economic evolution, I'd agree.

but the divisions and civil conflicts you mention are, ironically, situations that are exacerbated by politcal and economic systems and ideas originating in the minds of those conservative thinkers you might side with, i dunno.

anyway most of that division and conflict arises from either bad, pseudo-scientific ideas about race, bad anthropological theory about culture, and/or bad modes of production and distribution of material wealth and commodities.

In short, we're fucked. It's the old adage: the greatest trick the devil ever played wuz convincing you he didn't exist.

That devil is the Theocratic Conservative Capitalist Right or TCCR.

Long story bro and I can't be bothered with explaining it anymore. We'd be here for weeks and you'd never wanna read another post again.
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Alexis Jacobi
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Re: fascism in America?

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promethean75 wrote: Tue Sep 27, 2022 11:15 pm "The reason? To better understand the ideas that are ripping the social fabric. Divisions that lead to civil conflicts and insuperable political and social problems."

if by 'ripping' you mean changing human culture through social and economic evolution, I'd agree.

but the divisions and civil conflicts you mention are, ironically, situations that are exacerbated by politcal and economic systems and ideas originating in the minds of those conservative thinkers you might side with, i dunno.

anyway most of that division and conflict arises from either bad, pseudo-scientific ideas about race, bad anthropological theory about culture, and/or bad modes of production and distribution of material wealth and commodities.

In short, we're fucked. It's the old adage: the greatest trick the devil ever played wuz convincing you he didn't exist.

That devil is the Theocratic Conservative Capitalist Right or TCCR.

Long story bro and I can't be bothered with explaining it anymore. We'd be here for weeks and you'd never wanna read another post again.
Your general position is not at all hard to understand. I agree with parts or aspects. As well as disagreeing with parts and aspects.

And I also tend to think “None of this is going to turn out very well” (more or less “we’re fucked” expressed with more words).
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FlashDangerpants
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Re: fascism in America?

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Alexis Jacobi wrote: Sun Sep 25, 2022 2:14 pm Finally, I have found Roger Eatwell to be useful for gaining a general platform for understanding populism and the Dissident Right, yet he is obviously set within a general bias (as one can gather from his positions in this talk). I do not myself regard the issues and concerns of the Dissident Right as being ‘conspiracy theories’ or being un-genuine. If Eatwell expressed himself in any other way publicly he would of course be shunned and cancelled. The forces that are set to attack and annihilate dissident opinions and ideas act fast and ‘ruthlessly’.
So one conspiratorially focussed theory that isn't a "conspiracy theory" because it isn't "un-genuine" is the Great Replacement Theory. And you are only arguing the academic middle here, teaching the controversy with a nuanced perspective on both sides of the debate. I understand that completely.

Which other raging conspiracy theories must we not write off as "conspiracy theory" because they aren't "un-genuine"?

One such theory has it that the Holocaust was invented (under jewish orders) to make the Nazis look bad and none of it really happened. Is that a conspiracy theory, or is it too "genuine" and something I must offer equal status to?

Do I need to adjust my attitude to the flat Earthers who theorise that NASA is engaged in a conspiracy to pretend the world is round?

Did aliens build the Pyramids Alexis? Am I just a mean old cultural marxist if I don't give that theory much credence?
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Alexis Jacobi
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Re: fascism in America?

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FlashDangerpants wrote: Wed Sep 28, 2022 12:42 am Which other raging conspiracy theories must we not write off as "conspiracy theory" because they aren't "un-genuine"?
You’d be advised to examine all such theories (interpretations) one by one. Assigning the too-general term obfuscates.

I do not mean those you referred to however.
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FlashDangerpants
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Re: fascism in America?

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Alexis Jacobi wrote: Wed Sep 28, 2022 12:51 am
FlashDangerpants wrote: Wed Sep 28, 2022 12:42 am Which other raging conspiracy theories must we not write off as "conspiracy theory" because they aren't "un-genuine"?
You’d be advised to examine all such theories (interpretations) one by one. Assigning the too-general term obfuscates.

I do not mean those you referred to however.
Why not do 3 at once?
Why not do those 3?
They are absurd conspiracy theories are they not?
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Alexis Jacobi
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Re: fascism in America?

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FlashDangerpants wrote: Wed Sep 28, 2022 12:53 am Why not do 3 at once? Why not do those 3?
They are absurd conspiracy theories are they not?
The alien theory you can safely dismiss.

So too the flat-earth theory.

The Shoah narrative has some fictional elements which are still contested. But the general picture (the destruction of European Jewry) is a certainty.

The manipulation of historical narrative is simply put par for the course.

So each theory (your term) would need to be examined one by one. Our view of history has been tweaked and molded. But I assume you know this.
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FlashDangerpants
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Re: fascism in America?

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Alexis Jacobi wrote: Wed Sep 28, 2022 1:07 am
FlashDangerpants wrote: Wed Sep 28, 2022 12:53 am Why not do 3 at once? Why not do those 3?
They are absurd conspiracy theories are they not?
The alien theory you can safely dismiss.

So too the flat-earth theory.

The Shoah narrative has some fictional elements which are still contested. But the general picture (the destruction of European Jewry) is a certainty.

The manipulation of historical narrative is simply put par for the course.

So each theory (your term) would need to be examined one by one. Our view of history has been tweaked and molded. But I assume you know this.
Precisely which piece of the holocaust denial 'interpretation' (your term) are you endorsing today?
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Alexis Jacobi
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Re: fascism in America?

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FlashDangerpants wrote: Wed Sep 28, 2022 8:03 amPrecisely which piece of the holocaust denial 'interpretation' (your term) are you endorsing today?
What is your background in the study of the Shoah and how has your understanding of it been formed? What I am asking for is the list of all the titles you have read. Please be detailed and ‘precise’.
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