fascism in America?

How should society be organised, if at all?

Moderators: AMod, iMod

Post Reply
User avatar
iambiguous
Posts: 7106
Joined: Mon Nov 22, 2010 10:23 pm

fascism in America?

Post by iambiguous »

From the Washington Post
Hannah Allam

'Headline: Simmering threat of violence comes to fore with search of Trump property'

'For months, right-wing agitators with millions of followers have peddled the idea that a moment was coming soon when violence would become necessary — a patriotic duty — to save the republic.

With the FBI search Monday of Donald Trump’s compound in Florida, that moment is now, according to enraged commentators’ all-caps, exclamation-pointed screeds urging supporters of the former president to take up arms. Within hours of the search at Mar-a-Lago, a chorus of Republican lawmakers, conservative talk-show hosts, anti-government provocateurs and pro-Trump conspiracy theorists began issuing explicit or thinly veiled calls for violence.'


-----------

'"Today is war. That is all you will get on today’s show,” right-wing podcaster Steven Crowder announced Tuesday to his nearly 2 million followers on Twitter, referring to the program that goes to his YouTube audience of 5.6 million.'

------------

'Extremism researcher Caroline Orr Bueno compiled a collage of dozens of screenshots of tweets calling for violence in response to the search, or “raid” in the parlance of Trump supporters. “I already bought my ammo,” one person boasted in the sampling. “Civil war! Pick up arms, people!” ordered another.'

------------

'Orr Bueno said it was ominous to see “a disturbing number of elected Republicans and influential right-wing figures joining in on the ‘civil war’ rhetoric.”

“This whole situation is red meat for their base. They use events like this to feed into this fantasy they’ve co-created with their supporters, and defusing the situation would require stepping out of that alternate reality,” said Orr Bueno, a postdoctoral research associate at the University of Maryland who studies disinformation. “They’re not going to do that, particularly with 2024 right around the corner.”'


How seriously is this to be taken? Is there anything in America "here and now" that is the equivalent of Hitler's Brown Shirts, the Sturmabteilung/Storm Troopers.

Recall that just after the January 6th assault at the Capitol, there was a barrage of media predictions that there would be an explosion of violence to follow. Never happened.

How big a threat is this?

Stay tuned.
User avatar
iambiguous
Posts: 7106
Joined: Mon Nov 22, 2010 10:23 pm

Re: fascism in America?

Post by iambiguous »

https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions ... -violence/

Dana Milbank at the Washington Post

'I would like nothing more than to be wrong about this. But the reckless response by the GOP-Fox News axis to the FBI’s search of Mar-a-Lago makes it feel as though we’re falling into the abyss.

The threat of political violence from far-right extremists has been growing for years, but calls to arms reached a fever pitch in pro-Trump social media after Monday’s court-ordered search at former president Donald Trump’s Florida compound: “When does the shooting start?” “Summertime was made for killing fields.” “Lock and load.” “Tomorrow is war.” “Pick up arms, people.”'


Yes, it's been growing in the media and online...but where is it? On the other hand, if all of this leads to Trump being indicted, being arrested...?

The crucial question becomes this: is there a gap between rhetoric and reality?

What does the FBI and other such government agencies know of the actual capacity for wide-spread violence.

There certainly wasn't any doubt about it in Germany when Hitler was rising up through the ranks.

Even January 6th needs to be put in perspective. It was hardly the sort of insurrection that can only be launched with the backing of the armed forces. No, the main threat [to me] still seems to revolve around MAGA taking full control of the Congress next January and then the White House in January of 2025.

They already own and operate the Supreme Court.

More slowly but nonetheless surely legislating fascism into existence? Reconfigure government itself to be in sync with MAGA?
Gary Childress
Posts: 7966
Joined: Sun Sep 25, 2011 3:08 pm
Location: Retirement Home for foolosophers

Re: fascism in America?

Post by Gary Childress »

I believe there have been studies done that have concluded that mass shooters are usually alienated individuals who do what they do for no other reason than the notoriety of becoming an instant celebrity (albeit for a brief moment in time). So, of course, the American press does its part and blasts the name, and deed, plus speculation on motives of every mass shooter all over the front page headlines directly following each shooting.

I try not to watch the major news media much anymore. So I have to pry myself away or else hide the news (aka clickbait) on my Internet home page. Call me "uninformed" or whatever you want. But it keeps me relatively sane.
User avatar
iambiguous
Posts: 7106
Joined: Mon Nov 22, 2010 10:23 pm

Re: fascism in America?

Post by iambiguous »

Did the F.B.I. Just Re-elect Donald Trump?
David Brooks at the NYT

https://www.nytimes.com/2022/08/11/opin ... -raid.html

'Why is Donald Trump so powerful? How did he come to dominate one of the two major parties and get himself elected president? Is it his hair? His waistline? No, it’s his narratives. Trump tells powerful stories that ring true to tens of millions of Americans.

The main one is that America is being ruined by corrupt coastal elites. According to this narrative, there is an interlocking network of highly educated Americans who make up what the Trumpians have come to call the Regime: Washington power players, liberal media, big foundations, elite universities, woke corporations. These people are corrupt, condescending and immoral and are looking out only for themselves. They are out to get Trump because Trump is the person who stands up to them. They are not only out to get Trump; they are out to get you.

This narrative has a core of truth to it. Highly educated metropolitan elites have become something of a self-enclosed Brahmin class. But the Trumpian propaganda turns what is an unfortunate social chasm into venomous conspiracy theory. It simply assumes, against a lot of evidence, that the leading institutions of society are inherently corrupt, malevolent and partisan and are acting in bad faith.

It simply assumes that the proof of people’s virtue is that they’re getting attacked by the Regime. Trump’s political career has been kept afloat by elite scorn. The more elites scorn him, the more Republicans love him. The key criterion for leadership in the Republican Party today is having the right enemies.

Into this situation walks the F.B.I. There’s a lot we don’t know about the search at Mar-a-Lago. But we do know how the Republican Party reacted. The right side of my Twitter feed was ecstatic. See! We really are persecuted! Essays began to appear with titles like “The Regime Wants Its Revenge.” Ron DeSantis tweeted, “The raid of MAL is another escalation in the weaponization of federal agencies against the Regime’s political opponents.” As usual, the tone was apocalyptic. “This is the worst attack on this Republic in modern history,” the Fox News host Mark Levin exclaimed.

The investigation into Trump was seen purely as a heinous Regime plot. At least for now, the search has shaken the Republican political landscape. Several weeks ago, about half of Republican voters were ready to move on from Trump, according to a New York Times/Siena College poll. This week the entire party seemed to rally behind him. Republican strategists advising Trump’s potential primary opponents had reason to be despondent. “Completely handed him a lifeline,” one such strategist told Politico. “Unbelievable … It put everybody in the wagon for Trump again. It’s just taken the wind out of everybody’s sails.”'


Also, will all of this leading to Trump's indictment and arrest be to his base what Alito and company's Supreme Court Roe v. Wade ruling is to the liberal base? Even if Trump is not able to run in 2024, his son Don Jr., and other MAGA superstars will be.

Then it all comes down to the extent to which MAGA is, for all practical purposes, the equivalent of fascism.

'What happens if a prosecutor charges Trump and he is convicted just as he is cruising to the G.O.P. nomination or maybe even the presidency? What happens if the legal system, using its criteria, decides Trump should go to prison at the very moment that the electoral system, using its criteria, decides he should go to the White House?'

You tell me.

'I presume in those circumstances Trump would be arrested and imprisoned. I also presume we would see widespread political violence from incensed Trump voters who would conclude that the Regime has stolen the country. In my view, this is the most likely path to a complete democratic breakdown.'

Uh-oh?

'America absolutely needs to punish those who commit crimes. On the other hand, America absolutely needs to make sure that Trump does not get another term as president. What do we do if the former makes the latter more likely? I have no clue how to get out of this potential conflict between our legal and political realities.'

In other words, there's winning the battle. And then there's losing the war.
User avatar
FlashDangerpants
Posts: 6207
Joined: Mon Jan 04, 2016 11:54 pm

Re: fascism in America?

Post by FlashDangerpants »

ererererererere.jpg
ererererererere.jpg (45.94 KiB) Viewed 2308 times
User avatar
iambiguous
Posts: 7106
Joined: Mon Nov 22, 2010 10:23 pm

Re: fascism in America?

Post by iambiguous »

Here is a liberal rendition of the same concerns:

https://www.nytimes.com/2022/08/11/opin ... -raid.html

Michelle Goldberg at the NYT:

'Yet after the F.B.I. executed a search warrant at Trump’s beachfront estate this week, some intelligent people have questioned the wisdom of subjecting the former president to the normal operation of the law because of the effect it will have on his most febrile admirers.

Andrew Yang, one of the founders of a new centrist third party, tweeted about the “millions of Americans who will see this as unjust persecution.” Damon Linker, usually one of the more sensible centrist thinkers, wrote, “Rather than healing the country’s civic wounds, the effort to punish Trump will only deepen them.”

The Atlantic’s Tim Alberta described feeling “nauseous” watching coverage of the raid. “What we must acknowledge — even those of us who believe Trump has committed crimes, in some cases brazenly so, and deserves full prosecution under the law — is that bringing him to justice could have some awful consequences,” he wrote.'


Again, there's the way some folks actually imagine American democracy works --- out of a high school civics text -- and the way it actually works instead: sustaining the interests of those with wealth and power.

'In some sense, Alberta’s words are obviously true; Trumpists are already issuing death threats against the judge who signed off on the warrant, and a Shabbat service at his synagogue was reportedly canceled because of the security risk. On Thursday, an armed man tried to breach an F.B.I. field office in Ohio, and The New York Times reported that he appears to have attended a pro-Trump rally in Washington the night before the Jan. 6 attack on the Capitol. The former president relishes his ability to stir up a mob; it’s part of what makes him so dangerous.

Then back to not knowing the extent to which Trump and his MAGA fanatics are or are not the equivalent of Hitler and the Nazis.

'It should go without saying that Trump and his followers, who howled “Lock her up!” about Clinton, do not believe that it is wrong for the Justice Department to pursue a probe against a presidential contender over the improper handling of classified material. What they believe is that it is wrong to pursue a case against Trump, who bonds with his acolytes through a shared sense of aggrieved victimization.

It was Trump himself who signed a law making the removal and retention of classified documents a felony punishable by up to five years in prison. Those who think that it would be too socially disruptive to apply such a statute to him should specify which laws they believe the former president is and is not obliged to obey. And those in charge of enforcing our laws should remember that the caterwauling of the Trump camp is designed to intimidate them and such intimidation helped him become president in the first place.'


That's how the fulminating fanatic minds work. Hypocrisy is only applicable to the other side.

Only Goldberg comes down on the side of the civics text:

'Trump shouldn’t be prosecuted because of politics, but he also shouldn’t be spared because of them. The only relevant question is whether he committed a crime, not what crimes his devotees might commit if he’s held to account.'

Again, though, if his devotees use his "persecution" to send him [or his equivalent] back to the White House? With a MAGA Congress and a MAGA Supreme Court?

So be it!
Skip
Posts: 2820
Joined: Tue Aug 09, 2011 1:34 pm

Re: fascism in America?

Post by Skip »

How big a threat is this?
Enormous. The threat has existed since before WWII, when Hitler and his political movement had quite an enthusiastic following (and quite a few moneyed supporters) in America. That enthusiasm has never entirely died out, and in the last few decades, it's grown considerably.
Additionally, the anti-communist craze fuelled a culture of intolerance toward socially progressive ideas, making it a struggle to pass the simplest and most obviously necessary welfare legislation, to form and join trade unions, to affords workers basic rights and protect the most vulnerable members of society from the most predatory - IOW, to run a country with any standard of civility and humanity. Eg https://laborcenter.uiowa.edu/special-p ... us-history.
The predatory and intolerant have not gone away during a period of prosperity and seeming amity. They were just biding their time for the next showdown. It's coming.
promethean75
Posts: 4881
Joined: Sun Nov 04, 2018 10:29 pm

Re: fascism in America?

Post by promethean75 »

"How big a threat is this?"

i dunno man but i think the American constitution would prevent any possibility of a genuine fascist government. the country is a reasonably solid representational democracy that holds legitimate elections. and even if elections are rigged to keep or put a party member in power, this wouldn't matter unless changes or amendments to the constitution came with it. meaning our basic rights are in no more danger by a house and court full of republicans and a sitting republican president than otherwise. they still gotta alter the constitution to create and have real autocratic political power.
commonsense
Posts: 5087
Joined: Sun Mar 26, 2017 6:38 pm

Re: fascism in America?

Post by commonsense »

promethean75 wrote: Sat Aug 13, 2022 11:23 am "How big a threat is this?"

i dunno man but i think the American constitution would prevent any possibility of a genuine fascist government. the country is a reasonably solid representational democracy that holds legitimate elections. and even if elections are rigged to keep or put a party member in power, this wouldn't matter unless changes or amendments to the constitution came with it. meaning our basic rights are in no more danger by a house and court full of republicans and a sitting republican president than otherwise. they still gotta alter the constitution to create and have real autocratic political power.
I disagree. The Constitution cannot stop anyone from breaking the law. It didn’t prevent the Capitol riot. More of the same, in the less than entirely extreme case, could have enthroned a dictator with the support of many more fanatics than we’ve seen so far. When the zealots become strong enough, the aftermath of the next coup will be life changing.
promethean75
Posts: 4881
Joined: Sun Nov 04, 2018 10:29 pm

Re: fascism in America?

Post by promethean75 »

i highly doubt a right-wing coup would garner the support of the U.S. military. that's what would have to happen for a fascist take-over of the country.

i keep saying the irony is gonna be the death of the radical right. it'll be those fuckin knuckleheads that'll cause the government to declare martial law and lock everybody down... creating the very reality they are so adamant about preventing.
promethean75
Posts: 4881
Joined: Sun Nov 04, 2018 10:29 pm

Re: fascism in America?

Post by promethean75 »

I'm sayin chill the fuck out with shootin everygotdamnbody or you're gonna get all our guns taken away and we need the guns for our revolution, dumbass. Not you, the shooters.
commonsense
Posts: 5087
Joined: Sun Mar 26, 2017 6:38 pm

Re: fascism in America?

Post by commonsense »

promethean75 wrote: Sat Aug 13, 2022 1:46 pm i highly doubt a right-wing coup would garner the support of the U.S. military. that's what would have to happen for a fascist take-over of the country.

i keep saying the irony is gonna be the death of the radical right. it'll be those fuckin knuckleheads that'll cause the government to declare martial law and lock everybody down... creating the very reality they are so adamant about preventing.
You’re right, of course. But what I had in mind was a dictator with control of all government resources, including the military. This wouldn’t occur without DOD sympathizers in leadership positions. Maybe not with the next attempt, but maybe so, not too many attempts down the road.
promethean75
Posts: 4881
Joined: Sun Nov 04, 2018 10:29 pm

Re: fascism in America?

Post by promethean75 »

american fascism would require a complete overhaul of the branches of government in order to work. it's just too outrageous to ever happen in this century. old school fascism i mean. we might end up a chinese style corporatism/state capitalism but never again will there be politicians like hitler and Mussolini.

really the worst it could get over here in ermerica would be to become like china. i mean as far as authoritarian rule is concerned. not to say there wouldn't be many benefits in such a system (free medicine, edcuation, housing, etc?), only that citizens would have considerably less liberty in certain areas.

but never again will there be black shirts or brown shirts that take over the government. Hindenburg put hitler in power anyway, and Mussolini was operationally small potatoes. you'd never win a coup like the Italians did in a country on the scale of the U.S.
Skip
Posts: 2820
Joined: Tue Aug 09, 2011 1:34 pm

Re: fascism in America?

Post by Skip »

promethean75 wrote: Sat Aug 13, 2022 11:23 am "How big a threat is this?"

i dunno man but i think the American constitution would prevent any possibility of a genuine fascist government.
It's a few sheets of crumbly old brown paper. How's it gonna stop thugs with guns? Especially if the thugs with guns have allies on the other side of the law, wearing black robes?
they still gotta alter the constitution to create and have real autocratic political power.
They're working on exactly that. And if they fail, there's always the guns.
promethean75
Posts: 4881
Joined: Sun Nov 04, 2018 10:29 pm

Re: fascism in America?

Post by promethean75 »

"It's a few sheets of crumbly old brown paper. How's it gonna stop thugs with guns?"

c'mon skip you're not thinkin it through. any paramilitary or militia uprising would be countered by the U.S. military. similarly if a citizen uprising happened the sitting president would command the U.S. military to handle it. but never could a fascist dictator president perform a coup, illegally oust the sitting president and immediately afterward lock everybody down just for the hell of it. the executive branch of government is still held in check by the other two branches and you can't just evoke the power of the military and declare a gestapo state for no reason.

but really all that is neither here nor there because the real reason there would never be a coup of the sort in the U.S. is because the wealthy handlers won't allow it to happen. it disrupts economy and you can't make any money if all the workers are carrying guns instead of clip boards. so you don't wanna piss the working class off and you'd end up making more money anyway if you just let them continue doing what they're doing in an inflating economy.

no but think about it. who are these 'thugs with guns' you're talking about? like a jan 6 job? you're kidding, right?
Post Reply