The cracks in Capitalism are showing

How should society be organised, if at all?

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Sculptor
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The cracks in Capitalism are showing

Post by Sculptor »

1. Squeeze and impoverish the poor.
2. Enrich the rich.
3. Lower taxes on the rich
4. Increase energy costs and other essentials.
5. Reduce wages for the poor end working rights such as contracts and unions.

What is the eventual result?
20,000 homeless in Los Angeles.
Coffee shops in once prosperous areas now frequented by thieves, drunks and drug addicts. No work no money and $5 for a coffee in a paper cup


https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2022 ... os-angeles
Walker
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Re: The cracks in Capitalism are showing

Post by Walker »

Those are the ways in which it is attacked by the likes of Brandon and company.

It's funny. Folks do their best to corrupt capitalism, then blame capitalism.

Talk about blaming the victim.
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Harbal
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Re: The cracks in Capitalism are showing

Post by Harbal »

Walker wrote: Sun Jul 31, 2022 1:24 pm Those are the ways in which it is attacked by the likes of Brandon and company.

It's funny. Folks do their best to corrupt capitalism, then blame capitalism.

Talk about blaming the victim.
To point out the flaws in something isn't to corrupt it, it is treating capitalism like a religion that has corrupted it.
Iwannaplato
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Re: The cracks in Capitalism are showing

Post by Iwannaplato »

Walker wrote: Sun Jul 31, 2022 1:24 pm Those are the ways in which it is attacked by the likes of Brandon and company.

It's funny. Folks do their best to corrupt capitalism, then blame capitalism.

Talk about blaming the victim.
People talk about capitalism like it's one thing. There are a lot of facets of modern capitalism that could be eliminated or seriously changed and you would still have capitalism.
1) Anti-trust regulations - should the formation of monopolies be regulated and related how much government resources should go into copywrite and patent enforcement or is that a restriction of freedom and how does this get resolved internationally?
2) fiat fractional reserve banking - and if so, how do you see government both enforcing and regulating this? IOW this is a government granted extra power given to some people. You need government to give them the power to make money out of nothing and be able to lend it and demand it back - court systems and laws to enforce this and also the mechanism to create money out of nothing to give it to people. Why should a bank get to loan money and then now also have that monry? We can't do that.
3) Shareholder centered capitalism - iow, there was a large shift over recent decades to making management compensation based on short term shareholder gains. This is in tremendous contrast to corporate priorities in the 40s - 70s. Do you think this is a good change, a bad one, one that should be regulated and how.
4) Stock markets
5) Derivatives and other making money without producing things or even supporting the production of things. The finacialization of capitalism. IOW over recent decades the amount of money made via production has reduced and the amount of money made through creative investment has increased. Even large companies that used to make the vast bulk of their money via production/services now have a much higher percentage of income via creative investment.
6) Are you for Glass–Steagall type legislation and separation in finance or not? Should there be any limits on this sector? If so, which ones?
7) Corporations were the first globalists. Should the government curtail this in any way? Should corporations be allowed to interfere with democracy in other nations and through what means? Hands off completely, partly, some regulation, none?
8) What limits, if any, would you put on money controlling politicians? Issues surrounding lobbying, revolving door in oversight, campaign finance, bribes, and, in its own category......
9) generation of foreign policy?
10) What government oversight over various industries, if any? Should the government have the power to regulate certain industries - food industries, industries using potentially dangerous chemicals, etc.? Is it assumed that the market will eliminate, at least in the long run, companies that do not engage in safe or responsible practices? How do we prevent control of industry control of its own oversight, if one believes there should be some oversight?
11) Originally corporate charters, since they grant people priviledges other people do not have and these priviledges are government enforced, were withdrawn from companies that broke the law, for example, or misued their charters. That practice ended. The nation's founders were well aware that corporate entities were a threat to democracy and other facets of what they considered national health and had in place ways to restrain and even revoke the charters of problematic companies. This is not longer a practice. Should it be? Should there be a discussion about why the conservative practice of mainting this and other traditions was ended?
12) what regulation of Surveillance capitalism (as opposed to government surveillance) should there be, if any?
13) Is media a special case? By this I mean, should centralized control be avoided? How should government regulate media, if at all? How does government regulate things like the commons involved in radio frequencies? Or is this to simply be market driven?
Iwannaplato
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Re: The cracks in Capitalism are showing

Post by Iwannaplato »

Harbal wrote: Sun Jul 31, 2022 1:46 pm
Walker wrote: Sun Jul 31, 2022 1:24 pm Those are the ways in which it is attacked by the likes of Brandon and company.

It's funny. Folks do their best to corrupt capitalism, then blame capitalism.

Talk about blaming the victim.
To point out the flaws in something isn't to corrupt it, it is treating capitalism like a religion that has corrupted it.
Agreed. It has also changed a lot and both how it was before and all the intermediate stages and how it is now are all called capitalism. This leaves tremendous room for change and criticism even within capitalism.

Of the things I mentioned in my previous post: fractional reverse fiat banking, the no longer revoking corporate charters, surveillance capitalism, the whole make money without producing anything percentage of income via financial derivatives etc thing and corporate oversight are all very different now.
ThinkOfOne
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Re: The cracks in Capitalism are showing

Post by ThinkOfOne »

Sculptor wrote: Sun Jul 31, 2022 12:46 pm 1. Squeeze and impoverish the poor.
2. Enrich the rich.
3. Lower taxes on the rich
4. Increase energy costs and other essentials.
5. Reduce wages for the poor end working rights such as contracts and unions.

What is the eventual result?
20,000 homeless in Los Angeles.
Coffee shops in once prosperous areas now frequented by thieves, drunks and drug addicts. No work no money and $5 for a coffee in a paper cup


https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2022 ... os-angeles
An economic system which has greed as its driving force? What could possibly go wrong?

What's particularly remarkable is how many Christians are supporters of capitalism. Many of them rabidly so. A prime example of how few are truly followers of Jesus.
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Sculptor
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Re: The cracks in Capitalism are showing

Post by Sculptor »

Walker wrote: Sun Jul 31, 2022 1:24 pm Those are the ways in which it is attacked by the likes of Brandon and company.

It's funny. Folks do their best to corrupt capitalism, then blame capitalism.

Talk about blaming the victim.
Your stupidity never fails to amaze
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Sculptor
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Re: The cracks in Capitalism are showing

Post by Sculptor »

ThinkOfOne wrote: Sun Jul 31, 2022 3:30 pm
Sculptor wrote: Sun Jul 31, 2022 12:46 pm 1. Squeeze and impoverish the poor.
2. Enrich the rich.
3. Lower taxes on the rich
4. Increase energy costs and other essentials.
5. Reduce wages for the poor end working rights such as contracts and unions.

What is the eventual result?
20,000 homeless in Los Angeles.
Coffee shops in once prosperous areas now frequented by thieves, drunks and drug addicts. No work no money and $5 for a coffee in a paper cup


https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2022 ... os-angeles
An economic system which has greed as its driving force? What could possibly go wrong?

What's particularly remarkable is how many Christians are supporters of capitalism. Many of them rabidly so. A prime example of how few are truly followers of Jesus.
I'm always puzzled by that fact.
But then Christians rarely read the bible
Peter Kropotkin
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Re: The cracks in Capitalism are showing

Post by Peter Kropotkin »

Walker wrote: Sun Jul 31, 2022 1:24 pm Those are the ways in which it is attacked by the likes of Brandon and company.

It's funny. Folks do their best to corrupt capitalism, then blame capitalism.

Talk about blaming the victim.
K: Ok, let us flip the question... given what going on right now, today, why
is capitalism the path into the future for America? What is so great
about capitalism? Let us now praise capitalism.... if there is something to
praise?

Kropotkin
promethean75
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Re: The cracks in Capitalism are showing

Post by promethean75 »

it's not a problem of 'greed'. that's just romantic leftist propaganda. all animals plod along with the first interests of surviving and acquiring property, so everything is greedy. u want as much as you can get, and where you choose to be an ascetic just to be ironic, you're gratifying your ego and playing games. you want shit, you're just being obstinate, or, you're broke and can't have anything so you invent/adopt a philosophy that promotes and justifies a life of relative poverty.

how many of you wouldn't want a helicopter and a jet ski if you could have one? s'what i thought. you just can't afford one, so you're all like 'moderation, balance and the middle way yada yada yada.'

anyway you got me rambling. listen the point of marxist theory at the end of the day is that it makes sense for working classes to want to have all or at least most control of what they produce and then let the market decide whether or not the product or service is in demand.

also don't even think of 'government' when you're contemplating marx. his purpose was to put workers in control of the means of production, distribution and exchange (not counting centrally directed economies of fake-ass stalinism necessarily). that's it. he theorized that this new arrangement would include radical political changes in government as a consequence... but that wasn't the explicit end game for marx.

Here's an excerpt from a letter I sent to Engels some years ago:

we conclude that since man, by nature, is 'greedy' and wanting of pleasure and satisfaction, we must examine the possible kinds of social and economic arrangements that would best facilitate those interests, prohibit as little as necessary, and provide greater return to all who participate in the labor market. Waiting in earnest for your thoughts on the matter.
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Harbal
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Re: The cracks in Capitalism are showing

Post by Harbal »

promethean75 wrote: Sun Jul 31, 2022 6:03 pm
how many of you wouldn't want a helicopter and a jet ski if you could have one? s'what i thought. you just can't afford one, so you're all like 'moderation, balance and the middle way yada yada yada.'
No individual should be able to afford a helicopter; especially while there in another individual who can't afford to eat properly. It's the massive gap between the rich and poor that's the problem.
promethean75
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Re: The cracks in Capitalism are showing

Post by promethean75 »

The wealth disparity argument is a little sentimental Harb and not as effective as it used to be. Let's examine the problem with this guy who can't afford to eat. first thing we wanna aks is 'who's fault is that'. is this guy a bum, or does he just do his best and have the worst of luck?

what we want to avoid is that discussion because it'll go nowhere. but even better, we don't have to press that discussion to raise legitimate objections to capitalism... so long as they're strictly ergonomic in essence. by that i mean i limit my observation of what is illogical in capitalism from the perspective of the worker; that the capitalist isn't a necessary feature of a workplace or even an economy speshly' when  you and the other workers are producing everything. it's a no-brainer bruh.

so while it might seem obscene that there is such a disparity of wealth in the world, we wouldn't waste too much time tryna call capitalism on a moral or ethical foul cuz we'd be here all week and then some.
Walker
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Re: The cracks in Capitalism are showing

Post by Walker »

Walker wrote: Sun Jul 31, 2022 1:24 pm Those are the ways in which it is attacked by the likes of Brandon and company.

It's funny. Folks do their best to corrupt capitalism, then blame capitalism.

Talk about blaming the victim.
A bit of noise, but no refutation.
Iwannaplato
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Re: The cracks in Capitalism are showing

Post by Iwannaplato »

Walker wrote: Sun Jul 31, 2022 9:48 pm A bit of noise, but no refutation.
Talk about the toilet calling the bathtub white.
promethean75
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Re: The cracks in Capitalism are showing

Post by promethean75 »

It's like he wants to throw the kettle out with the dish water. Wait that's not how it goes. A baby in the hand is worth two in the bush? No that's not it either. He's trying to put the bathwater before the baby. It's like a horse calling the cart black.
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