The cracks in Capitalism are showing

How should society be organised, if at all?

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Iwannaplato
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Re: The cracks in Capitalism are showing

Post by Iwannaplato »

henry quirk wrote: Tue Aug 02, 2022 12:31 am It does not seem to me I was bein' complimented. I believe B & pro were sayin' I was derivative.
Well, I find prometheus unclear on content, let alone my trying to read his intentions. But Belinda seemed pleased with your thoughts and asked a question about Heidegger. But even if pro intended to accuse, it's silly to accuse someone of being influenced by a skilled philosopher. I mean, we are all chewing on ideas from others. Some chew well, others are just groupies who parrot. Some can, yes, mix in their own conclusions and tweak or more what they liked in others. Unless you are a feral child, you've been influenced.
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henry quirk
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Re: The cracks in Capitalism are showing

Post by henry quirk »

Iwannaplato wrote: Tue Aug 02, 2022 10:36 am
henry quirk wrote: Tue Aug 02, 2022 12:31 am It does not seem to me I was bein' complimented. I believe B & pro were sayin' I was derivative.
Well, I find prometheus unclear on content, let alone my trying to read his intentions. But Belinda seemed pleased with your thoughts and asked a question about Heidegger. But even if pro intended to accuse, it's silly to accuse someone of being influenced by a skilled philosopher. I mean, we are all chewing on ideas from others. Some chew well, others are just groupies who parrot. Some can, yes, mix in their own conclusions and tweak or more what they liked in others. Unless you are a feral child, you've been influenced.
Well, sure, but not by Sartre or Heidegger cuz, as I say, I've never read 'em. My primary influences were the writers of the comic books and science fiction I ate as a kid.
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Re: The cracks in Capitalism are showing

Post by Iwannaplato »

henry quirk wrote: Tue Aug 02, 2022 11:24 am
Iwannaplato wrote: Tue Aug 02, 2022 10:36 am
henry quirk wrote: Tue Aug 02, 2022 12:31 am It does not seem to me I was bein' complimented. I believe B & pro were sayin' I was derivative.
Well, I find prometheus unclear on content, let alone my trying to read his intentions. But Belinda seemed pleased with your thoughts and asked a question about Heidegger. But even if pro intended to accuse, it's silly to accuse someone of being influenced by a skilled philosopher. I mean, we are all chewing on ideas from others. Some chew well, others are just groupies who parrot. Some can, yes, mix in their own conclusions and tweak or more what they liked in others. Unless you are a feral child, you've been influenced.
Well, sure, but not by Sartre or Heidegger cuz, as I say, I've never read 'em. My primary influences were the writers of the comic books and science fiction I ate as a kid.
Sure, sure. I wasn't claiming you lied about reading them. Promise.

Existentialism, however, seeped into science fiction, and then into readers, but that doesn't mean it took in you.
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henry quirk
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Re: The cracks in Capitalism are showing

Post by henry quirk »

Sure, sure. I wasn't claiming you lied about reading them. Promise.
I didn't think you were, so: we're good.

*
Existentialism, however, seeped into science fiction, and then into readers, but that doesn't mean it took in you.
Oh, no doubt it did, along with a whole whack of other stuff.
Gary Childress
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Re: The cracks in Capitalism are showing

Post by Gary Childress »

Well, to be fair, I don't know that socialism doesn't have cracks too. Which one has worse cracks, I don't know. Life seems to generally be just one big mess. But maybe that's just me expecting too much from from life.
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Re: The cracks in Capitalism are showing

Post by promethean75 »

"Well, to be fair, I don't know that socialism doesn't have cracks too."

Well you gotta do it first before you can find any cracks in it.

And to answer your interrogating questions in advance, no, those weren't Socialist. Socialistic in a few aspects for a short time, but not the full monty.
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Re: The cracks in Capitalism are showing

Post by promethean75 »

And I don't say this as a socialist. I could never be a socialist. I ain't built that way.

I say it for you all, because I truly feel that the problems most of you face in your life are simple enough to be remedied by a socialist society, you just don't know it. I think you think your problems are metaphysical, religious, philosophical, whatever, when in fact their just socio-economic. And I think most of you (excluding the capitalists amoung you) would benefit well, feel better, and be generally happier people in a socialist society.

I'm just tryna help bro.
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Re: The cracks in Capitalism are showing

Post by Gary Childress »

promethean75 wrote: Sat Aug 06, 2022 11:39 pm And I don't say this as a socialist. I could never be a socialist. I ain't built that way.

I say it for you all, because I truly feel that the problems most of you face in your life are simple enough to be remedied by a socialist society, you just don't know it. I think you think your problems are metaphysical, religious, philosophical, whatever, when in fact their just socio-economic. And I think most of you (excluding the capitalists amoung you) would benefit well, feel better, and be generally happier people in a socialist society.

I'm just tryna help bro.
when you say, "socialist" do you mean a society where economic activity is legislated by public institutions/aka government? If so, then I don't see where you're going to end up with much different than what we currently have under the legislation of private individuals. In the end, humans will always be in charge and that means there will be failings and shortcomings no matter how good the intentions.
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Re: The cracks in Capitalism are showing

Post by promethean75 »

i wouldn't use the word 'government' prematurely and instead just say 'the workers'. People get scared by the word 'government'.

yeah basically. two things would determine and control market activity in a socialism. Workers and demand. there would be no more privately owned companies that employ wage workers. all the modes and means of any kind of commodity and service production would be under the democratic control and administration of the workers. they would decide among themselves what wages are to be paid (based on meritocratic principles; worker's natural talents, strengths, productive capacities, etc.), what is to be produced, and how much it is to be sold for. Market demand takes care of the rest.

so here's the thing. this kind of society would naturally, necessarily and eventually extend the decision making power and therefore the governing power of the working class into the realm of politics. or rather, politics and economy would be indistinguishable... or inseparable. 
Gary Childress
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Re: The cracks in Capitalism are showing

Post by Gary Childress »

promethean75 wrote: Mon Aug 08, 2022 6:37 pm i wouldn't use the word 'government' prematurely and instead just say 'the workers'. People get scared by the word 'government'.

yeah basically. two things would determine and control market activity in a socialism. Workers and demand. there would be no more privately owned companies that employ wage workers. all the modes and means of any kind of commodity and service production would be under the democratic control and administration of the workers. they would decide among themselves what wages are to be paid (based on meritocratic principles; worker's natural talents, strengths, productive capacities, etc.), what is to be produced, and how much it is to be sold for. Market demand takes care of the rest.

so here's the thing. this kind of society would naturally, necessarily and eventually extend the decision making power and therefore the governing power of the working class into the realm of politics. or rather, politics and economy would be indistinguishable... or inseparable. 
Most jobs I have worked in this so-called "capitalist" economy we are in are run by managers who rely on their staff to inform them and do their jobs. The managers look at the spreadsheets and oversee the production of whatever is being produced (be it paperwork if nothing else) and tell workers what they need to improve on or what they're doing right. Managers regulate production based on supply and demand. Some managers are good ones (personable) and listen to and treat their workers with dignity. Some managers are assholes and sometimes the assholes get weeded out for their behavior and sometimes they don't. Some managers get their positions because they do things well and know what they're doing. Some get their positions for no other reason than because they have pretty faces or something.

How is any of that going to change in this "democratic socialist" model of yours? Are humans going to magically stop being humans and start being perfect? All the dysfunctions like groupthink or incompetence are going to magically disappear and never be experienced again? And every time a change in demand occurs and a corresponding change in production is warranted, all the workers are going to stop their work, get together and vote on whether or not they want to change their production? What exactly is going to be the purpose of this vote? How long will it take to come to a consensus on what to do? And how will that consensus differ from what a manager's decision would be? How long before this workers' commune starts to appoint overseers to oversee various parts of the operations so they don't have to cast a pointless vote every time that either says, "yes we are going to produce more when we need to produce more" or "no we're not going to produce more when we need to produce more"? How different will those overseers be from the managers we have today? I don't think these utopias we're being told about are any more real than the one's fundie Laissez-faire capitalists tell us about. Most successful economies I know of are mixed economies where there is tension between government institutions and private institutions and that tension keeps those societies reasonably dynamic.
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Re: The cracks in Capitalism are showing

Post by promethean75 »

"How is any of that going to change in this "democratic socialist" model of yours?"

the managers thing? oh well see there would be more direct recall/mandate power that would be extended over a larger number of voters. the basic argument breaks down to differences between horizontal and vertical government styles. I posted a video months ago in which this dude lays the whole shit out. The early soviet style government is examined in the video and compared to its liberal western style counterpart, etc. lemme find it hold on.

https://youtu.be/byqOHE-37og

in any case marx, engels, lenin and trotsky were no 'utopianists' by any stretch of the werd. that's a buzz concept that is falsely attributed to Marxists by right-wingers.

but it's not enough to say 'marxism won't eliminate all human suffering, therefore we should keep capitalism'. that conclusion doesn't follow. it could be supporting evidence in a larger argument, but in itself its hardly a strong argument.

rather it's that media-created false image of utopia in your head that distorts your understanding and expectation of what Marxism would/should be capable of, see.

the point is to distribute wealth more logically and according to what, and how, it is earned by and through labor. simple stuff really. you want better returns for everyone in theory but you'd never admit it and you certainly couldn't do it as a capitalist because capitalism depends on exploitation (i mean that word in its strict functional sense and am not moralizing here). free market theorists and philosophers were certainly not wrong in their estimation of human nature and back then the idea was revolutionary. kay but things have changed, G. not everybody became rich like they thought. i mean bro we're in the 2000s and some people still can't afford no shoes. there's something intuitively wrong about that in the sense that that fact has to be ridiculous regardless of your ontology. It's embarrassing dude and I will have no part in it.
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Re: The cracks in Capitalism are showing

Post by Gary Childress »

promethean75 wrote: Tue Aug 09, 2022 2:45 pm "How is any of that going to change in this "democratic socialist" model of yours?"

the managers thing? oh well see there would be more direct recall/mandate power that would be extended over a larger number of voters. the basic argument breaks down to differences between horizontal and vertical government styles. I posted a video months ago in which this dude lays the whole shit out. The early soviet style government is examined in the video and compared to its liberal western style counterpart, etc. lemme find it hold on.

https://youtu.be/byqOHE-37og

in any case marx, engels, lenin and trotsky were no 'utopianists' by any stretch of the werd. that's a buzz concept that is falsely attributed to Marxists by right-wingers.

but it's not enough to say 'marxism won't eliminate all human suffering, therefore we should keep capitalism'. that conclusion doesn't follow. it could be supporting evidence in a larger argument, but in itself its hardly a strong argument.

rather it's that media-created false image of utopia in your head that distorts your understanding and expectation of what Marxism would/should be capable of, see.

the point is to distribute wealth more logically and according to what, and how, it is earned by and through labor. simple stuff really. you want better returns for everyone in theory but you'd never admit it and you certainly couldn't do it as a capitalist because capitalism depends on exploitation (i mean that word in its strict functional sense and am not moralizing here). free market theorists and philosophers were certainly not wrong in their estimation of human nature and back then the idea was revolutionary. kay but things have changed, G. not everybody became rich like they thought. i mean bro we're in the 2000s and some people still can't afford no shoes. there's something intuitively wrong about that in the sense that that fact has to be ridiculous regardless of your ontology. It's embarrassing dude and I will have no part in it.
I work in the field of public mental health and I enjoy the work because it feels like I'm actually helping people with their life struggles. It's meaningful to me. However, not everyone wants to work in the field of public service. Some people just want more money so they can have nice flashy things that others don't have. Different strokes for different folks I guess. Should I advocate that people who want wealth and want to stand out should not be allowed to attain it?
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Sculptor
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Re: The cracks in Capitalism are showing

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Gary Childress wrote: Wed Aug 10, 2022 4:26 am
promethean75 wrote: Tue Aug 09, 2022 2:45 pm "How is any of that going to change in this "democratic socialist" model of yours?"

the managers thing? oh well see there would be more direct recall/mandate power that would be extended over a larger number of voters. the basic argument breaks down to differences between horizontal and vertical government styles. I posted a video months ago in which this dude lays the whole shit out. The early soviet style government is examined in the video and compared to its liberal western style counterpart, etc. lemme find it hold on.

https://youtu.be/byqOHE-37og

in any case marx, engels, lenin and trotsky were no 'utopianists' by any stretch of the werd. that's a buzz concept that is falsely attributed to Marxists by right-wingers.

but it's not enough to say 'marxism won't eliminate all human suffering, therefore we should keep capitalism'. that conclusion doesn't follow. it could be supporting evidence in a larger argument, but in itself its hardly a strong argument.

rather it's that media-created false image of utopia in your head that distorts your understanding and expectation of what Marxism would/should be capable of, see.

the point is to distribute wealth more logically and according to what, and how, it is earned by and through labor. simple stuff really. you want better returns for everyone in theory but you'd never admit it and you certainly couldn't do it as a capitalist because capitalism depends on exploitation (i mean that word in its strict functional sense and am not moralizing here). free market theorists and philosophers were certainly not wrong in their estimation of human nature and back then the idea was revolutionary. kay but things have changed, G. not everybody became rich like they thought. i mean bro we're in the 2000s and some people still can't afford no shoes. there's something intuitively wrong about that in the sense that that fact has to be ridiculous regardless of your ontology. It's embarrassing dude and I will have no part in it.
I work in the field of public mental health and I enjoy the work because it feels like I'm actually helping people with their life struggles. It's meaningful to me. However, not everyone wants to work in the field of public service. Some people just want more money so they can have nice flashy things that others don't have. Different strokes for different folks I guess. Should I advocate that people who want wealth and want to stand out should not be allowed to attain it?
How many of your cases are the result of disappointment due to not being able to buy flashy things; loosing their house because of mortgage problems and so forth?
I'd also like to know if you feel underfunded and under pressure?
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Re: The cracks in Capitalism are showing

Post by Gary Childress »

Oh, we're very much underfunded. And most of our cases are people with pretty severe behavioral problems, people who have a hard time with ADLs. Does that mean we need to restructure society? I'd be happy if people would just approve of spending more on public assistance programs so we can afford to hire enough staff and retain them with decent, competitive salaries.
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Re: The cracks in Capitalism are showing

Post by Immanuel Can »

Gary Childress wrote: Wed Aug 10, 2022 4:26 am I work in the field of public mental health and I enjoy the work because it feels like I'm actually helping people with their life struggles. It's meaningful to me.
That's good work, Gary. And you're right: it's not something that most people feel comfortable to do, even if they can -- which, I suspect, most cannot really do well. It's kind of like the penal system (which often overlaps, of course): once an "inmate" is "committed," society mentally throws away the key, in many cases. I'm happy to have close friends who work in both systems, though. They're good people, doing a hard and (often) thankless job.
However, not everyone wants to work in the field of public service. Some people just want more money so they can have nice flashy things that others don't have. Different strokes for different folks I guess. Should I advocate that people who want wealth and want to stand out should not be allowed to attain it?
You make it sound like everybody is either Mother Teresa or the guy on the Monopoly box. :wink:

Most people are neither, Gary. I think it's fair to say that they want good things for other people, but are limited as to their means and skills, and are preoccupied with just getting by in life by themselves. Taking care of one family is the most many of them can probably do. They pay taxes -- and far too many of them -- and watch their government wash that money down the sink, with only a paltry bit of it coming back in services.

But they're not "capitalists" (which is a Marxist idea anyway, not their idea), just ordinary people who work for their livelihoods and want to do right in the limited sphere they have. They're not "deplorables" or "rednecks" or "right-wing": they just are getting tired of watching themselves slide backward financially each month, while Big Government (on either side, let's be fair) suck their funds from them.

Real "capitalists" of the sort you describe are in the 1%. They all ride around in jets and go to climate conferences and Davos, and they primarily vote for the party that lets them get their noses deepest into the trough...which they often do in the name of "social justice" or "equality" or "income redistribution," or "public works." For them, the government is their biggest ally, and the last one that's going to stop them stealing. Nothing's easier than putting one's hand in the public purse, because nobody is watching it closely. After all, they think of it as "not their money." Which, indeed, it is not.

It's the public's money, stolen from their labour and creativity by the government.
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