silence is consent

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Peter Kropotkin
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silence is consent

Post by Peter Kropotkin »

This has been said in different times and different places,
In Nazi Germany as well as by Martin Luther King during the
civil rights movement..

The fact that this conservative Supreme court is taking away our
rights in not surprising, and this morning has ruled against the EPA in
taking away its ability to end air pollution.. expect this trend
of destroying American institutions like the EPA, the IRS, and I
would bet the house on this court fulfilling the conservative
long hoped for dream of destroying Social Security which they
have trying for since its inception in the 1930's. This court has no
interest in the law or the constitution or justice, its only goal
and purpose is to fulfill the long hope for conservative goals of
injustice, inequality, repel of the fundamental American idea
that

''all men/people are created equal''

nothing less will do... and then is a large block of people, who for
whatever reason, will deny this...no Kropotkin, you are chicken little,
but don't take my word for it, look at the actions... states can no
longer pass gun control laws, the end of ROE, the of federal institutions
being able to regulate as is their mandate.. which is the point of today's EPA ruling,
of conservatives already talking about ending protections of gays/trans, of
of ending all forms of contraceptives in America... of fulfilling the conservatives
dream of blacks and people of color forced back into Jim Crow laws...
and all of this isn't even unexpected.. what bothers me, is the nationwide silence..
our so called leaders in business and in the social world have been silent,
cricket silent.. as has been noted, silence is consent... so the allege leaders like
bill gates and buffet have been quiet as church mice about the conservatives
plan to turn America into the 50's, the 1850's... that is what bothers me the most..
the deafening silence in America today... if you are silent, for whatever reason,
you have consented to this and to the future events where we all must toe
the purity test of the conservatives or face the consequences...

my wife and I have talked about moving to another country.. as I am old,
I no longer have the energy to fight in the streets anymore, but I will
not consent by remaining silent to the right wing attempt to
overthrow America and what it stands for...remain silent
and you have given your consent...

Kropotkin
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henry quirk
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Re: silence is consent

Post by henry quirk »

remain silent and you have given your consent
I can't agree. Sometimes (most of the time, it seems to me) the opposition will not listen and you expend yourself (voting harder!, for example) to no effect.

No, sometimes silence means the quiet ones are just goin' about their business, mindful of the opposition only as an obstacle to be navigated around. In other words: silence can mean consent has been withdrawn.
the fundamental American idea that ''all men/people are created equal''
Seems to me, the fundamental American principle (or mebbe the fundamental human principle) is each man has an inviolate right to his life, liberty, and property.
Peter Kropotkin
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Re: silence is consent

Post by Peter Kropotkin »

If one see's a crime, say a mugging and you remain
silent to the police, that is giving consent to the crime...
it doesn't matter what excuse you might offer to appease
your guilty conscious, you have consented to the mugging...

it ok to mug people is the consent by remaining silent...
The German people by remaining silent to the Holocaust,
gave their consent to the Holocaust... to be killed for being
Jewish, not a problem for the German people..
the question of collective guilt has haunted the German society
and state for decades since then...

The actions of the SCOTUS has threatened the basic liberty of
every American... by taking the rights away from one person or
a group like removing a women's right to her own body, threatens
every single American because if that fundamental right is gone,
then all rights/freedoms/liberties are at risk.. I am not homosexual,
married for 26 years next Tuesday, but if I fail to stand up to
the rights of gays and trans, my own personal rights will be threaten
next.. that is the nature of taking away rights.. like eating a potato chip,
you can't eat just one.. just as the SCOTUS will not stop at taking away
gay or trans rights, all our freedoms and rights are at risk....

The SCOTUS is an existential threat to every single American...
and by being silent to that threat, you give your consent to the further
loss of freedoms and rights...

Kropotkin
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henry quirk
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Re: silence is consent

Post by henry quirk »

Interestin' how you had to toss in a thing absent from your initial post...
If one see's a crime, say a mugging and you remain
silent to the police, that is giving consent to the crime...
it doesn't matter what excuse you might offer to appease
your guilty conscious, you have consented to the mugging...
...to attempt to negate me, instead of just addressin' what I posted.

As I say: the opposition will not listen.
Peter Kropotkin
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Re: silence is consent

Post by Peter Kropotkin »

actually, I did address your post..

and by pointing out the mugging, I was giving additional information as
to what my point was... it had nothing to do with you in any, way,
shape or form.. it was just a point about my initial thread...

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Immanuel Can
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Re: silence is consent

Post by Immanuel Can »

Silence is refusal to participate. It can be a refusal to accept even the assumptions of an absurd claim. It can be a way of saying to both sides, "Do better: neither of you is even worth joining." Silence is not getting into the craziness. Silence is keeping out of the mud, and not rolling in the sty.

But no, silence does not betoken consent. Silence has to be interpreted, and interpreted as intended...or it's just silence.
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henry quirk
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Re: silence is consent

Post by henry quirk »

Peter Kropotkin wrote: Thu Jun 30, 2022 7:52 pm actually, I did address your post..
Yeah, I ain't seein' it.
that is the nature of taking away rights
No one can take away a man's right to himself: they can only violate him.

Personally: I find The State (any iteration) to be the biggest violator on the block. Seekin' protection from violation from the biggest violator is damned silly.

As I say...
henry quirk wrote: Fri Jun 24, 2022 7:46 pmif you're (like) me , and find all that legislation and adjudication as illegitimate as The State who crafts and issues them, you'll scoff the law and do as you see fit.

This means, in the unlikely event congress banned abortion and such a thing was upheld, abortions would still occur just as in the unlikely event congress bans private gun ownership and such a thing was upheld, guns will still be in private hands.
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henry quirk
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Re: silence is consent

Post by henry quirk »

Immanuel Can wrote: Thu Jun 30, 2022 7:58 pm Silence is refusal to participate. It can be a refusal to accept even the assumptions of an absurd claim. It can be a way of saying to both sides, "Do better: neither of you is even worth joining." Silence is not getting into the craziness. Silence is keeping out of the mud, and not rolling in the sty.

But no, silence does not betoken consent. Silence has to be interpreted, and interpreted as intended...or it's just silence.
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Peter Kropotkin
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Re: silence is consent

Post by Peter Kropotkin »

Peter Kropotkina: actually, I did address your post..

H: "Yeah, I ain't seein' it."

K: Can't help you there

H: No one can take away a man's right to himself: they can only violate him.

K: Not actually sure what this means?

H: Personally: I find The State (any iteration) to be the biggest violator on the block. Seekin' protection from violation from the biggest violator is damned silly.

K: another one who hasn't caught up with the times... over my life, 63 years old,
I have had three political beliefs, for 20 years I was an anarchist, lived the life,
no cars, didn't pay taxes, stayed off the grid, the whole 9 yards of being an anarchist..
(hence the name) and I too believed as you did.. but one must change with the times..
the American government is now a subsidiary of big business.. the real danger
in our times isn't government, it is big business... the primary threat to
our person isn't from the government, it is from big business and we must
respond to that... the primary tyranny of our day isn't from government,
but an economic tyranny, that is the major threat of today..
not a political tyranny, but an economic one...politicians are bought and
sold all the time now.. they have no allegiance to us, but to the big corporation
that bought them.. the real threat to America is from an economic tyranny,
not a political one...

Kropotkin
Peter Kropotkin
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Re: silence is consent

Post by Peter Kropotkin »

Immanuel Can wrote: Thu Jun 30, 2022 7:58 pm Silence is refusal to participate. It can be a refusal to accept even the assumptions of an absurd claim. It can be a way of saying to both sides, "Do better: neither of you is even worth joining." Silence is not getting into the craziness. Silence is keeping out of the mud, and not rolling in the sty.

But no, silence does not betoken consent. Silence has to be interpreted, and interpreted as intended...or it's just silence.

K: I see silence as being something different.. people who try to
stay in the middle, are to my mind anyway, cowards...to refuse to participate is
cowardice... I am an atheist, and have been for 50 years, and others say they
are believers, I think they are wrong, but at least they are participating,
taken a side, I may not agree with the side, but at they have the courage
of convictions.. whereas one won't take a side, be it agonistical in religion,
or politically, leads me to wonder, what will it take for you to take sides?
what are you waiting for, a sign from god, a message from heaven,
you can't take sides because? I don't see it, but that is, once again me...

I believe, rightly or wrongly, that not taking a side is cowardice...
the evidence is there, one way or another.. I am a liberal..
no apologies, and I am less than fond of conservatives, but I
I have no patience for those who won't take side... they are wishy washy to my
mind.. what more evidence do you need to take a side? take a side and be done with it..

I have but two "prejudice" one is against young conservatives, and the other is
against those who won't take sides...

I am biased against these two groups.. I freely admit that...but I make no
apologies for this..... but mostly I despise those who won't take a side..
for the love of god, it isn't that hard.. just pick a side..

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henry quirk
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Re: silence is consent

Post by henry quirk »

the American government is now a subsidiary of big business..
Money buys legislation.

Same as it always was.
Peter Kropotkin
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Re: silence is consent

Post by Peter Kropotkin »

henry quirk wrote: Fri Jul 01, 2022 6:52 pm
the American government is now a subsidiary of big business..
Money buys legislation.

K: and that passivity isn't enough.. what is the solution to the problem?
is there a solution? can the solution be found politically, socially,
philosophically, scientifically? Being passive about a problem is not much
more than being silent about a problem... ok, we agree to the problem!
what is the solution? and if there is no solution, why not? there are
a big series of problems/questions here... do you even care about this
problem, you accept it and move on? and how does that solve this problem?

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Immanuel Can
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Re: silence is consent

Post by Immanuel Can »

Peter Kropotkin wrote: Fri Jul 01, 2022 5:50 pm
Immanuel Can wrote: Thu Jun 30, 2022 7:58 pm Silence is refusal to participate. It can be a refusal to accept even the assumptions of an absurd claim. It can be a way of saying to both sides, "Do better: neither of you is even worth joining." Silence is not getting into the craziness. Silence is keeping out of the mud, and not rolling in the sty.

But no, silence does not betoken consent. Silence has to be interpreted, and interpreted as intended...or it's just silence.
K: I see silence as being something different.. people who try to
stay in the middle, are to my mind anyway, cowards...to refuse to participate is
cowardice...
It can be that. But it isn't in all, or even necessarily in most cases.
I am an atheist,
I am a Theist. I stay here, and talk to Atheists, agnostics, Islamists, and other sundry people of diverse opinions. But when the discussion gets stupid or venial, I walk away...not out of fear, but because who has the time for that nonsense? Sometimes people are just not being sensible; and in such cases, a wise man walks away.
...take a side and be done with it..
No, that's no good. It doesn't work at all if both of the loud sides of an issue are stupid.

Look at our politicians, today. Does any of them look like somebody you want to represent you? If I say "Pick a side," are you going to settle for the ideological morons on the Left, or those on the Right? Will you feel courageous for knuckling under and supporting a side you find venial or juvenile? That's what "pick a side" would mean.

I've got a better path: how about thinking for oneself, instead, and rejecting being limited to those two choices? That's a better option.
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henry quirk
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Re: silence is consent

Post by henry quirk »

that passivity isn't enough
If you knew me you'd know better than to call me passive.

No, there's no solution to the problem of predation by The State to be found in, or thru conventionally contestin' with, The State.

As I say: go about your business, be mindful of the opposition as an obstacle to be overcome or navigated around, scoff the law, or: keep doin' what you're doin' (lookin' to wolves to protect you from wolves).
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