Roe v Wade Overturned?

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Immanuel Can
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Re: Abortion Overturned?

Post by Immanuel Can »

Gary Childress wrote: Wed Jun 29, 2022 9:39 am
Immanuel Can wrote: Mon Jun 27, 2022 3:11 pm
Gary Childress wrote: Sun Jun 26, 2022 5:19 am So it appears that there will probably be far fewer abortions in the US than before. I'm wondering if that will lead to more care and use of contraceptives in intercourse or else a huge population surge.

For those who believe abortion is wrong, what is your plan for if the world becomes overpopulated to the point that we run out of resources to nourish everyone?

Educate women.
And I don't mean primarily "about reproduction." Just give them the means and opportunity to get at least the end of high school, with options for career, business or higher ed. Until then, guarantee them security of their persons.

Statistically, educated women freely choose to have less than two children each. If we do that, the world reproductive levels will soon fall below replacement levels, and we'll have to encourage women to have more children for the good of society. In other words, we'll have the opposite problem.

We have enough arable land in the world right now...more than enough to feed everybody. In fact, we could feed a lot more, if centralized governments and corrupt totalitarian regimes were not so common. However, that's a political, not an agricultural shortcoming. We have the food.

But educating women would be the right thing to do...for them, for us, and for the world. Then we could let people be free, and still keep population under control. Everybody wins.

Not only that, but by educating women, we won't have to kill any of them anymore.

Problem solved.
I think that's very noble
It's the right thing to do. We all know that.
but what about people who don't think there is a soul or don't think that human life begins at conception?
Their "thinking" changes nothing.

If it's wrong, and if it's murder, for me to smother my two-year-old with a pillow, it doesn't become right or not-murder if I say, "Well, I didn't believe a two-year-old is a person."

However, if I do NOT murder any two-year-olds, then even if I happen to hold the view that two-year-olds are not persons, I STILL have not murdered any.

So only the abortionist can be a murderer -- and will be, regardless of her personal "thoughts" on the matter. The anti-abortionist will never be, so long as she continues to kill nobody.
Should they be forced to abide by the rules of people who believe the opposite?
Do you see how the above answers that question?

Are you seriously asking if a person should be allowed to smother two-year-olds if they "believe the opposite" to you and me?
I mean, why not allow some people access to abortion if they so choose?
Again, isn't the answer obvious now? It's murder. That's why you don't let people do it.
...to force your worldview on others who don't share it seems like it could possibly be wrong.
Why have you not considered the adoption option? Is that not a legitimate "choice"?

If a woman does not abort her child, even if she doesn't want her, and doesn't think she's a human being, it would mean that there is zero chance she'd be committing murder, and she'd be giving an infant to adoptive parents who, right now, statistically can't get enough of them.

But pro-abortionists don't want that. They want to kill their children, and they even want others to kill theirs. Not only do they not want to love, provide for and raise them themselves, they're so bitter and hateful they won't even allow a childless couple to have the joy of her. (and it is, by vast preponderance, female children that get aborted).

Instead, the selfish, hateful woman wants her child dead...and nothing but dead, so the child cannot live apart from her, and so a loving home cannot welcome a new child. She don't want to have her own child, one created purely by her own previous choices and actions; and she doesn't want anybody else to have her either. She'd rather see her own child dead than have that.
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Re: Abortion Overturned?

Post by godelian »

Immanuel Can wrote: Wed Jun 29, 2022 3:07 pm Underdeveloped World, where women are often kept ignorant and optionless, and end up having several children each, often without any means to meet their basic needs.
They are not kept ignorant. It is just that they may not get necessarily get endlessly indoctrinated by a politicized school system. Western women are not less ignorant than them. Western women are just more indoctrinated. In that sense, western women are more ignorant than them.

Concerning their basic needs, the solution in the human species is that a woman is supposed to have a male provider, i.e. a husband. If you have children but you don't have a male provider, you can try to do it alone, or failing that too, you may indeed end up amongst the poorest of the poor. I don't think that across the world there is any demographic that is poorer than women with children without a husband to provide for the family. If the woman is in good faith, such as for example a widow, the family and the wider community will try to help. If she is not in good faith, then help will not be forthcoming as easily.

Outside the West, governments do not waste money on subsidizing the wrong kind of lifestyle. That is also why these governments collect less taxes, and that their society is almost always a much more pleasant place to live. Nowadays, I live in SE Asia. I do not need to pay half my income in taxes to fund the lifestyle of strong and independent women who need no man.

These non-western women are not optionless. It is just that they cannot count on anybody to fund misbehavior. There is nobody magically paying for their mistakes.
Immanuel Can wrote: Wed Jun 29, 2022 3:07 pm Educating these women changes that.
If they are given the same education as western women, then thei situation will simply degenerate into yet another hookup culture. Does the world really need another batch of arrogant 304s?

Useful education is about acquiring job skills. However, most western women do not acquire them either, neither in high school nor in college. Some of them still qualify for some office droning jobs, but nowadays they increasingly end up slinging coffee at Starbucks, while drowning in student-loan debt.

Education has a cost and a potential revenue. Western women still have to show any evidence that the juice is worth the squeeze.
Immanuel Can wrote: Wed Jun 29, 2022 3:07 pm As for Western women, I don't deny that they have been indoctrinated beyond saving, in many cases. Statistically, they don't even reproduce themselves anymore. (It's almost like they know that their kind is not really worth perpetuating, ironically.)
Ha ha ah. Agreed!
Immanuel Can wrote: Wed Jun 29, 2022 3:07 pm So the dysfunction of their relationships, as horrendous as it is, has no bearing on the population issue -- which is, of course, the issue we were talking about in the first place before we got side-tracked to how messed up Western marriages are.
Abortion seems to be used as some kind of contraceptive of last resort. It is undoubtedly one of the many factors that fuel promiscuity. But then again, removing just abortion, won't solve the complete problem. Banning abortion would be too little, too late. Furthermore, I do not even believe that the problem can still be solved. I think that it is preferable to let western civilization just go into the wall. Why would anybody lift a finger? In my opinion, it is not worth saving, to begin with.
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Immanuel Can
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Re: Abortion Overturned?

Post by Immanuel Can »

godelian wrote: Wed Jun 29, 2022 3:49 pm
Immanuel Can wrote: Wed Jun 29, 2022 3:07 pm Underdeveloped World, where women are often kept ignorant and optionless, and end up having several children each, often without any means to meet their basic needs.
They are not kept ignorant.
Yes, they are. Often, they have no access to education of any kind...not even to basic literacy, and certainly not to things like hygiene, medicine, business practices or anything you and I take for granted.

If you've never been out of the Western hemisphere, you probably can't imagine how bad it is.
Concerning their basic needs, the solution in the human species is that a woman is supposed to have a male provider, i.e. a husband.
In those cultures, there are multiple problems with that theory...rape, child abuse, sex slaves, polygamy, war, disease, violence, robbery, abandonment, tribalism, and so on, to say nothing of the absence of any possibility of birth control. These women are out of options.

You have to get your head outside the West to know, though. It's really worse than you can imagine: and that's two-thirds of the existing world.

The First World, so called, is a totally different situation.
Outside the West, governments do not waste money on subsidizing the wrong kind of lifestyle.
Outside the West, they don't "subsidize lifestyles" at all.
Nowadays, I live in SE Asia. I do not need to pay half my income in taxes to fund the lifestyle of strong and independent women who need no man.
Of course. But you must live in a rich place, like Singapore or somewhere like that. Because if you lived in, say, the Philippines or Malaysia, you'd certainly know that what I'm telling you is true.
Immanuel Can wrote: Wed Jun 29, 2022 3:07 pm Educating these women changes that.
If they are given the same education as western women,
I don't advocate that. Most of that is useless sub-education. I mean actual education, such as the knowledge and means to do maths, manage a language, perform basic business functions, deal with medical needs, basic work skills, and so on...real stuff, practical stuff.

I've been to places where that has made all the difference in the world to women's lives. I could give you many, many such stories and cases.
Useful education is about acquiring job skills. However, most western women

I'm not speaking of them. That's a different issue.

Again, Western women have zero to do with overpopulation allegations. They don't even reproduce in sufficient numbers to sustain their own bunch.
Immanuel Can wrote: Wed Jun 29, 2022 3:07 pm As for Western women, I don't deny that they have been indoctrinated beyond saving, in many cases. Statistically, they don't even reproduce themselves anymore. (It's almost like they know that their kind is not really worth perpetuating, ironically.)
Ha ha ah. Agreed!
Well, it follows, doesn't it? If you refuse to reproduce, what you are saying is, "I have no belief that what I am is a legacy worth perpetuating. The world would be better off with less, or none, of my kind." That's the obvious subtext.

And they're right.
I do not even believe that the problem can still be solved.
The problem of the indoctrination of Western women cannot be solved: you are correct. They don't want to do anything different: they choose death.

But the problem of women's lack of options in the Developing World can, and should be solved. Those women are not like Western women. I've met many of them. They're often honest, hard-working, respectable, and simply without options. One thing the West can give them is the abundant options that basic education can provide. They can do everything they need for themselves, if we give them a chance.

And by the way, the same is true of many men in poverty cultures. There are a lot of decent blokes out there who have no access to subsistence, or to basic financial resources or literacy, but who are dying to get a business, put their kids in school, and even employ others in their neighbourhoods. We just have to give them a chance.

Doing that, for poor men and women, will solve the world population crisis in very short order...as I say, voluntarily, advantageously, in a financially sound way, and permanently.
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Re: Abortion Overturned?

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Immanuel Can wrote: Wed Jun 29, 2022 3:28 pm

So only the abortionist can be a murderer -- and will be, regardless of her personal "thoughts" on the matter. The anti-abortionist will never be, so long as she continues to kill nobody.



Instead, the selfish, hateful woman wants her child dead...and nothing but dead.
So why are the people who perform the abortions not in jail for murder?
And why isn’t the woman who allowed her baby to be aborted not in jail for murder? [ in the countries where Abortion is legal ] [ would that mean a legalised murder? ]

The murder of a two year old child would most likely warrant a punishment such as jail, or committed to a mental institution.


.
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Immanuel Can
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Re: Abortion Overturned?

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Dontaskme wrote: Wed Jun 29, 2022 4:57 pm So why are the people who perform the abortions not in jail for murder?
That's easy.

Because we live in an outstandingly wicked society, where even murdering children is celebrated as a "right" and as "choice."

Women who believe that don't realize what their actions are telling the world. But what they are actually saying is,

"I have lost faith in the goodness of life itself. People like me don't deserve to live. My kind is nothing by way of a legacy for society. People like me deserve to be torn apart and flushed down a sink."

Because it's the little person who is most like them that they are lynching in just that way. :shock:
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Re: Abortion Overturned?

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Immanuel Can wrote: Wed Jun 29, 2022 6:47 pm
Dontaskme wrote: Wed Jun 29, 2022 4:57 pm So why are the people who perform the abortions not in jail for murder?
That's easy.

Because we live in an outstandingly wicked society, where even murdering children is celebrated as a "right" and as "choice."

Women who believe that don't realize what their actions are telling the world. But what they are actually saying is,

"I have lost faith in the goodness of life itself. People like me don't deserve to live. My kind is nothing by way of a legacy for society. People like me deserve to be torn apart and flushed down a sink."

Because it's the little person who is most like them that they are lynching in just that way. :shock:
Sounds like punishment for murder is a man made law. Doesn’t look like God is going to stop the wickedness. So the moral question is…is it moral to impose on a child the invitation to live a life where evil wickedness is celebrated? would that be fair to risk exposing another feeling sentient being to the evil ways of humanity?

Even risk the possibility that the new child may even grow up to become a Putin or a Hitler?

Where does the wickedness stop IC.

Because it doesn’t look like God is going to stop it, does it?

I’ve already asked you what would a judgement or punishment upon the wicked look like from God, but you’ve ignored that question, for some reason, I don’t know why, seems like a reasonable question. 🤷‍♂️
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Immanuel Can
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Re: Abortion Overturned?

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Dontaskme wrote: Wed Jun 29, 2022 7:57 pm Doesn’t look like God is going to stop the wickedness.
Patience.
I’ve already asked you what would a judgement or punishment upon the wicked look like from God...
You can read all about it in Scripture. It's all there. Start with 2 Peter 3:7-end.
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Re: Abortion Overturned?

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Immanuel Can wrote: Wed Jun 29, 2022 3:07 pm The divorce rate, even for high school graduates, is already 50% or more...
All the more reason why we need more reproductive control.
At least women now find it more easy ro escape from abuse - would you not agree?

You did not answer my question about why you define an embryo as a person.
FETUS
FETUS
fetua.JPG (21.86 KiB) Viewed 732 times
SO TELL ME how this qualifies as a person?
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Immanuel Can
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Re: Abortion Overturned?

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Sculptor wrote: Wed Jun 29, 2022 9:56 pm You did not answer my question about why you define an embryo as a person.
Yeah, I did.

In a short version, I said that's a human child, identifiable by its DNA. It's not a cat, a dog or an emu.

And in fact, you know that's true, I said, because the whole point of abortion is not the eliminating of a dog, cat or emu, but the eradication of a human being. If it did not achieve that, nobody would even want one.

There was more, but clearly you didn't read it. So I'll leave it at that.
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Re: Abortion Overturned?

Post by Gary Childress »

Immanuel Can wrote: Wed Jun 29, 2022 3:28 pm
Gary Childress wrote: Wed Jun 29, 2022 9:39 am
Immanuel Can wrote: Mon Jun 27, 2022 3:11 pm

Educate women.
And I don't mean primarily "about reproduction." Just give them the means and opportunity to get at least the end of high school, with options for career, business or higher ed. Until then, guarantee them security of their persons.

Statistically, educated women freely choose to have less than two children each. If we do that, the world reproductive levels will soon fall below replacement levels, and we'll have to encourage women to have more children for the good of society. In other words, we'll have the opposite problem.

We have enough arable land in the world right now...more than enough to feed everybody. In fact, we could feed a lot more, if centralized governments and corrupt totalitarian regimes were not so common. However, that's a political, not an agricultural shortcoming. We have the food.

But educating women would be the right thing to do...for them, for us, and for the world. Then we could let people be free, and still keep population under control. Everybody wins.

Not only that, but by educating women, we won't have to kill any of them anymore.

Problem solved.
I think that's very noble
It's the right thing to do. We all know that.
but what about people who don't think there is a soul or don't think that human life begins at conception?
Their "thinking" changes nothing.
So even if you are wrong and a human fetus at its earliest stages doesn't have a soul or isn't a human life, they're still wrong to abort one? Your belief is necessarily true even if it's false?
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Re: Abortion Overturned?

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Gary Childress wrote: Thu Jun 30, 2022 12:36 am So even if you are wrong and a human fetus at its earliest stages doesn't have a soul or isn't a human life, they're still wrong to abort one?
Well, let's look at it another way, Gary. I'm not advocating killing anyone. If somebody is, then it's on them to prove, beyond any doubt, that the life they're taking is not sacred, and they are not murdering.

As for me, I advocate killing nobody. So I've got nothing I have to prove. There's no possibility of me being a murderer, even if I were wrong.

But then, there's this: to whom, ultimately, does a person have to answer if he takes another's life?

It's not the person he killed: that person is dead. It's not society, because society can't make something right or wrong by wishing it to be so, or by legislating it to be so. If it's right, it's right; if it's wrong, it's wrong. Moreover, society once legislated that slavery was right; but I doubt you and I would now agree they had the right idea. So laws are maleable and fallible. And the victim's dead...

So to whom does a murderer ultimately answer?

Not to me. To God.

Anybody who wants to take Him on can afford to risk taking a life. But I wouldn't. And I wouldn't encourage others to do so.
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Re: Abortion Overturned?

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Immanuel Can wrote: Wed Jun 29, 2022 4:25 pm Often, they have no access to education of any kind...not even to basic literacy, and certainly not to things like hygiene, medicine, business practices or anything you and I take for granted.
Some women spend time in the useless schools and want to make their own money, just like in the West. The result is the same. They usually end up in a low-paying office drone job until they belatedly get their epiphany, and try to find a husband anyway. They almost always miserably fail at that.
Immanuel Can wrote: Wed Jun 29, 2022 4:25 pm If you've never been out of the Western hemisphere, you probably can't imagine how bad it is.
I have not lived in the West for over a decade now. It is not bad over here. If it were, I would not choose to live here.
Immanuel Can wrote: Wed Jun 29, 2022 4:25 pm In those cultures, there are multiple problems with that theory...rape, child abuse, sex slaves, polygamy, war, disease, violence, robbery, abandonment, tribalism, and so on, to say nothing of the absence of any possibility of birth control. These women are out of options.
If a woman does not want to get married, she obviously should not. She should simply fend for herself. Nobody will prevent her from doing that. If it works, then fine. If it doesn't work, then also fine. It is their lives.
Immanuel Can wrote: Wed Jun 29, 2022 4:25 pm But you must live in a rich place, like Singapore or somewhere like that. Because if you lived in, say, the Philippines or Malaysia, you'd certainly know that what I'm telling you is true.
I do not live in a westernized Asian country with too much money floating around. What would be the point in doing that? To end up with more of the same arrogant crap?
Immanuel Can wrote: Wed Jun 29, 2022 4:25 pm I've been to places where that has made all the difference in the world to women's lives. I could give you many, many such stories and cases.
When a man starts making money, he usually ends up sharing it with one (or more) women. When a woman starts making money, she does not need a man, and she usually ends up alone.

Hence, the phenomenon of women making their own money, is detrimental to the social structure as it usually ends up destroying the nuclear family.

This is one of the many reasons why it is game over in the West.

Again, I am not in favor of fixing the problem. I am in favor of letting the problem fester until it finally solves itself. Just let the shi.t show naturally crash and burn.
Immanuel Can wrote: Wed Jun 29, 2022 4:25 pm But the problem of women's lack of options in the Developing World can, and should be solved.
There is no lack of options, but quite a few of these women seem to realize that they should not choose that kind of option.

If they have the money for that, they can spend it on a useless degree, if that is what they want. Some don't have the money. But then again, from whom should the money be confiscated in order to give it to them for that purpose?
Immanuel Can wrote: Wed Jun 29, 2022 4:25 pm Those women are not like Western women. I've met many of them.
I have not met a western woman for over a decade now. All women here are non-western.

I do not miss western women at all. On the contrary, I only deal by choice with non-western ones. I do not want to listen to arrogant feminist crap.
Immanuel Can wrote: Wed Jun 29, 2022 4:25 pm One thing the West can give them is the abundant options that basic education can provide. They can do everything they need for themselves, if we give them a chance.
So, that amounts to confiscating money from people in the West, so that non-western women can pay for a useless degree.

By the way, the starting salary over here, for a recent graduate, is lower than for a waitress. So, they will be slinging coffee again at Starbucks, with their useless degree. What's new?

The market for arrogant, feminist 304s with a degree is of limited size, everywhere in the world.

For them, to make a U-turn and belatedly start looking for a husband will not work either, because most men, especially in Asia, refuse to recruit wife material from the hookup culture. Their triple-digit body count is just too much of a red flag.

So, just let nature runs its course. Nothing needs to be done or changed.
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Re: Abortion Overturned?

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Sculptor wrote: Wed Jun 29, 2022 11:02 am
vegetariantaxidermy wrote: Wed Jun 29, 2022 10:34 am
Sculptor wrote: Wed Jun 29, 2022 10:28 am And in all seriousness.
Who would call this a person?

And why? Be honest
fetua.JPG
Your natural misogyny is fucking you up. You should just keep out of this.
You are more of a misogynist that anyone on the thread.
I'm not an anything 'ist'. I go with facts, evidence and science. That's all anyone needs. And how ironic, that someone who habitually calls any woman he doesn't like who happens to be over fifty a 'dried up old whore', a 'misogynist'.
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Re: Abortion Overturned?

Post by Gary Childress »

Immanuel Can wrote: Thu Jun 30, 2022 1:36 am
Gary Childress wrote: Thu Jun 30, 2022 12:36 am So even if you are wrong and a human fetus at its earliest stages doesn't have a soul or isn't a human life, they're still wrong to abort one?
Well, let's look at it another way, Gary. I'm not advocating killing anyone. If somebody is, then it's on them to prove, beyond any doubt, that the life they're taking is not sacred, and they are not murdering.

As for me, I advocate killing nobody. So I've got nothing I have to prove. There's no possibility of me being a murderer, even if I were wrong.

But then, there's this: to whom, ultimately, does a person have to answer if he takes another's life?

It's not the person he killed: that person is dead. It's not society, because society can't make something right or wrong by wishing it to be so, or by legislating it to be so. If it's right, it's right; if it's wrong, it's wrong. Moreover, society once legislated that slavery was right; but I doubt you and I would now agree they had the right idea. So laws are maleable and fallible. And the victim's dead...

So to whom does a murderer ultimately answer?

Not to me. To God.

Anybody who wants to take Him on can afford to risk taking a life. But I wouldn't. And I wouldn't encourage others to do so.
Maybe you're not guilty of the "murder" of some fetuses in that case but you could be guilty of dooming the human species if you're wrong and rapid overpopulation wipes us out. That's akin to the genocide of our species that you'd be advocating. I think that's a pretty close washout at the very least, if not worse than murdering fetuses.
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Re: Abortion Overturned?

Post by Immanuel Can »

godelian wrote: Thu Jun 30, 2022 2:48 am
Immanuel Can wrote: Wed Jun 29, 2022 4:25 pm Often, they have no access to education of any kind...not even to basic literacy, and certainly not to things like hygiene, medicine, business practices or anything you and I take for granted.
Some women spend time in the useless schools...
No, I'm talking at people who live at a level where they can't even afford the uniforms for school. I have no interest in Western women's problems. They're irrelevant to the population situation.

They don't reproduce sufficiently.
Immanuel Can wrote: Wed Jun 29, 2022 4:25 pm If you've never been out of the Western hemisphere, you probably can't imagine how bad it is.
I have not lived in the West for over a decade now. It is not bad over here. If it were, I would not choose to live here.
That's what I thought. You're in the privileged East, it would seem, not in the places I'm talking about. I mean in places like India, the Philippines, Malaysia, and such.
Immanuel Can wrote: Wed Jun 29, 2022 4:25 pm In those cultures, there are multiple problems with that theory...rape, child abuse, sex slaves, polygamy, war, disease, violence, robbery, abandonment, tribalism, and so on, to say nothing of the absence of any possibility of birth control. These women are out of options.
If a woman does not want to get married, she obviously should not.
That's not an option she's allowed to have, in those cultures. Nobody's giving her any choice.
Immanuel Can wrote: Wed Jun 29, 2022 4:25 pm But the problem of women's lack of options in the Developing World can, and should be solved.
There is no lack of options,
Yep, there is.

I'm amazed you don't know that. You obviously don't travel much. I know for sure you're wrong about that.
Immanuel Can wrote: Wed Jun 29, 2022 4:25 pm One thing the West can give them is the abundant options that basic education can provide. They can do everything they need for themselves, if we give them a chance.
So, that amounts to confiscating money from people in the West...

Nope. It's voluntary. If you don't want to help, you're not obligated to.

One way is through corporate donations, and another private fund donations, and another government aid...best given to sustainable initiatives like microenterprise, sustainable farming, and microschools, which create independence and self-sufficiency, not handouts and dependence.

You should find out about those programs. They're really something amazing.
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