Roe v Wade Overturned?

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Immanuel Can
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Re: Abortion Overturned?

Post by Immanuel Can »

commonsense wrote: Fri Jul 01, 2022 1:18 pm
Immanuel Can wrote: Fri Jul 01, 2022 1:41 am
commonsense wrote: Thu Jun 30, 2022 11:59 pm ...if not for SCOTUS—...Making abortions criminal...
I'm afraid it's clear you're not understanding what's happened at all. Your "facts" are just wrong, and wrong in ways you could confirm yourself, if you went and looked.

The R v. W. decision does not make abortions criminal. It doesn't even deny that every state in the union can have unrestricted abortions. What this decision says, is that when the court formerly ruled on R v. W., back in 1973, it was overreaching and outside the constitution entirely. This decisin says, the court screwed up, and it's time to set things in right order again.

It's not actually a decision about abortion per se, at all.

Consequently, it's a decision purely about JURISDICTION. Nothing more. Nothing else.

All it says is that the Federal Government has no jurisdiction to dictate to states what their choice about abortion must be. It says that that question has to be settled at the state level.

And that's all it says.

So we have to understand this situation correctly. Abortion has not been "overturned," as Gary's headline would induce us to imagine. And it certainly has not been "criminalized," as you suggest. All it is, is a decision that states must decide. Period. No more, no less.

Let's keep the discussion sane.
Beg pardon. I should have said that the decision allows individual States to declare or to have declared abortions to be unlawful.

I haven’t read the decision, but I believe it is aimed specifically at abortions with a more generalized application to the roles of SCOTUS, the federal government and the state governments.
Your belief is incorrect. You should read the decision, I suggest. It's a purely judicial matter.

Now, the panic from the Left is interesting. It signals that they just can't stand the idea of non-centralized power in these issues. They know darn well that states like Cali and New York will keep aborting children right up to post-birth. So the actual threat of non-existence of abortions is not what they're mad about; they're mad that not everybody is going to be forced to play things their way. They're mad at the idea that there could be diversity of opinion and diversity of law among diverse states. They hate that people will have the choice to live in states that do not subsidize promiscious murder with their taxes, or to be forced to approve of it in all locales.

Let 'em rage, I say. They're totalitarians and baby killers. If they're mad, that's good: it means we're doing the right thing.
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Immanuel Can
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Re: Abortion Overturned?

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Walker wrote: Fri Jul 01, 2022 2:22 pm Why am I responding for IC? Well, since he's polite enough to answer most of the stupid bullshit [SB] (as opposed to critical thinking) that gets thrown his way, I figure batting a few silly softballs is a courtesy for helping both participants and lurkers to transcend the SB tedium.
Carry on, Walker. This is an open forum; anybody gets to speak here.
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Immanuel Can
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Re: Abortion Overturned?

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commonsense wrote: Fri Jul 01, 2022 2:05 pm
Immanuel Can wrote: Fri Jul 01, 2022 3:55 am
We know that a baby in utero can make its own decisions. When she kicks, it's not because the mother told her to. When she gets hiccups, the mother doesn't. Her heart beats about twice as fast as the mother's does. When a needle is inserted into the amniotic sac to kill the child, she reacts away from it. And when she is pulled apart, she screams.
You are citing reflexes, not thoughtful decisions.
On what basis are you thinking you know that?

Women themselves say, "The baby's kicking."

Poor fools -- they should say, "The cluster of cells is being induced to kick." :lol:
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Re: Abortion Overturned?

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popeye1945 wrote: Thu Jun 30, 2022 5:15 pm ... as to the overturn of Roe V Wade it is not the wish of about 70 percent of the population.
:lol:

Oh hell no.

That's the very reason that the Progressives want to keep abortion as far from a legislative vote as possible. They do not want the people to speak on this issue. No sirree.

What's likely to happen is varying, legislated abortion restrictions specific to each state, particularly if politicians can find some way to keep their names out of the process. Perhaps "codify via mandate." The result will be that some states become Meccas of Death. There will be competition for customers, perhaps incentives such as free vacations, see a fabulous national park while aborting. Or perhaps bonus discount points for repeat customers. Why not both, vacation and discount points. Perhaps an upgrade to first-class while flying to the Mecca of Death. Of course by then customers will be called clients, and what with the competition for their dollars converted to the new world currency of yuan, there will be plenty of emotional support and empathy at the destination, as opposed to the clients being treated like livestock.

:|
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henry quirk
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Re: Abortion Overturned?

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Spyrith wrote: Fri Jul 01, 2022 9:45 amWhy are women doing whatever they want even a negative? People should be allowed to do what they want with themselves and not have others criticize them for it.

I think a better approach would be to just let people handle the consequences of their own actions and suffer through them. It shouldn't be the business of men to save women from their mistakes.

And ultimately, freedom is a far, far more sacred value than any custom, tradition or value. This includes the freedom to make mistakes as well.
henry quirk wrote: Wed Jun 29, 2022 7:11 pm If reproductive control really is the issue on the table (and not, for example, sacrifices to Moloch, or the denigration of personhood, or just plain old eugenics) then why aren't folks talkin' about tubal ligation and vasectomy?

Both are safe, effective, single event procedures. Both are reversible. Neither is particularly controversial today. Most importantly: if reproductive control is really the issue, both allow women and men to exercise it without, for some, killin' a baby or, for others, havin' a pesky parasite removed.
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henry quirk
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Re: Abortion Overturned?

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commonsense wrote: Fri Jul 01, 2022 1:05 pm
henry quirk wrote: Fri Jul 01, 2022 1:07 am
to be a real baby, a real child or a real human requires that the being *breathes air
*As in on his own, yes?

If so: you've rendered anyone usin' an iron lung, or its equivalent, and, mebbe, anyone who has asthma and who uses an inhaler, as a non-person.
Good point, but I was referencing just anyone who breathes air with or without assistance.
So, just to be clear: a human being (a person?) becomes a human being (a person?) only when he draws his first breath, yeah?
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Dontaskme
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Re: Abortion Overturned?

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Walker wrote: Fri Jul 01, 2022 1:58 pm
Dontaskme wrote: Fri Jul 01, 2022 1:39 pm
Immanuel Can wrote: Fri Jul 01, 2022 5:24 am
Well, because abortion is murder. That's a pretty good reason.
Prove it.

Otherwise...you are only bluffing, worse still, you are lying.
You're just projecting your own tendency for lying and nonsense, again.

Crucial elements of the situation:
Premeditation. Killing. Innocents.

Sounds like first degree murder, maybe even a hate crime*.

The question is, how can a state legalize murder, even if murder is the will of the people? Answer: only by defying science, and assigning non-human status to the victim.


* hate crime, rather than crime, is referenced only because it sounds like a Progressive Label.
Murder needs to be proved to have taken place.. the claim that abortion is murder, is not a hate crime, neither is it a hate crime to ask for proof that murder has taken place.

It could be perceived as a hate crime against women, to accuse women of being a murderer if they choose to have an abortion.

Until you and your sidekick proves that intentional abortion makes a woman a murderer, you and your sidekick are just bluffing, or just flat out lying through your teeth.

So prove it...Prove that abortion is murder. It is so easy to just say it, but that doesn't make it so. And since 70% of the people who live on planet earth, would not class abortion as murder, then your just clutching at straws, and your claim is baseless, worthless, and down right hateful and insulting to the average intelligent person with a mind to think for itself, critically, without passing that responsiblity onto some invisible sky daddy, that is still lingering around inside your dizzy imagination from childhood.

Males such as you and IC...need a good old dose of reality...women are not helpless, they can look after themselves, and think for themselves, they are NOT anyone's property but to their OWN self...and they will not be silenced or controlled by any male God called human ego, that is for sure, and absolutely certain.

All this crap about abortion is murder is spiteful, and what do you think that sort of reasoning is ever going to achieve, what message is that going send to women who may just become too frightened to approach a male for sex...all you will do is drive them further and further away from their male counterparts..until they reach a stage where they may even reject relationships with men completely and become childless by choice, and seeking sexual gratification from their own sex...this is my prediction only, but it's worth pondering as a reality...where the ruling elites that demand the reproduction of their little slave workers for their factories...will see their evil little plots, backfire on them.


.
Last edited by Dontaskme on Fri Jul 01, 2022 3:58 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Sculptor
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Re: Abortion Overturned?

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henry quirk wrote: Fri Jul 01, 2022 3:16 pm
commonsense wrote: Fri Jul 01, 2022 1:05 pm
henry quirk wrote: Fri Jul 01, 2022 1:07 am

*As in on his own, yes?

If so: you've rendered anyone usin' an iron lung, or its equivalent, and, mebbe, anyone who has asthma and who uses an inhaler, as a non-person.
Good point, but I was referencing just anyone who breathes air with or without assistance.
So, just to be clear: a human being (a person?) becomes a human being (a person?) only when he draws his first breath, yeah?
It's as good a definition as any, what else ya got?
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Re: Abortion Overturned?

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Spyrith wrote: Fri Jul 01, 2022 9:45 am Why are women doing whatever they want even a negative? People should be allowed to do what they want with themselves and not have others criticize them for it.
It is their family who has to decide about that. I am not a relative of theirs. So, indeed, personally, I do not give a flying fart.
Spyrith wrote: Fri Jul 01, 2022 9:45 am I think a better approach would be to just let people handle the consequences of their own actions and suffer through them. It shouldn't be the business of men to save women from their mistakes.
Arbitrary men don't do that, because arbitrary men simply don't care.

Relatives? That is something else. If a woman is sufficiently disrespectful to her family, then they may indeed retaliate. In the end, all respect is based on the fear for reprisals. You cannot just live off your family for years and years in a row, and then tell them to bugger off. It does not work like that.
Spyrith wrote: Fri Jul 01, 2022 9:45 am And ultimately, freedom is a far, far more sacred value than any custom, tradition or value. This includes the freedom to make mistakes as well.
Parental authority and family values are a much more sacred value than the right join the hookup culture as to make rounds on the joystick carousel.
By the way, there is no religion in which arbitrary "freedom" would be a "sacred value".

In the West, the family either does not care, or the father even got removed from the family unit, and cannot intervene. In Asia, this is almost never the case. In Asia, quite a few daughters would never dare to a thing like that, simply because they know that the family will not hesitate to make very credible threats or even attack and destroy. Unfortunately, there are problems that cannot be solved in any other way.

Western civilization is finished anyway. It is just a question of time before it degenerates into a cataclysm. A good part of Asia, on the other hand, has a good chance to survive the oncoming meltdown. So, I pre-emptively moved here already. It is a matter of sheer survival. I do not want to be physically in the West when the inevitable Armageddon gets unleashed.
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Re: Abortion Overturned?

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Immanuel Can wrote: Fri Jul 01, 2022 1:18 pm ...and all those other factors routinely deprive women of the protection of any man.
Why do these "strong and independent women who need no man" suddenly need a man?
Seriously, there is no man. He is obviously gone. He left, and he is not coming back.
Immanuel Can wrote: Fri Jul 01, 2022 1:18 pm I suggest that Islam has a hostile and abusive view of women, judging by the Chapter of Women in the Koran...which I have read, and have right here on hand, as a matter of fact.
It is not hostile but realistic, or "red-pilled", as some people would say. I wholesale despise naive western romanticism. So, the view in the Quran suits me absolutely fine.
Immanuel Can wrote: Fri Jul 01, 2022 1:18 pm
I'm just saying that those who use the Koran rules will feel they have perfect permission to beat and tyrannize their wives. And that would be part of the problem.
In the Quran, Allah reminds us of the fact that all respect is ultimately based on the fear for reprisals.
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Re: Abortion Overturned?

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Prove that abortion is murder.
In other words: is what a pregnant woman carries a person, or just meat?

We're no closer to an answer than we were when I first asked that question back in '19.

If there was just some way to allow women and men to exercise reproductive freedom (and that's what this is all about, right?) while neatly side-steppin' all the possible moral/ethical violations embedded in abortion.

🤔
It's as good a definition as any, what else ya got?
Oh, I've offered mine, over and over, across multiple threads, for years.

Anyone who's interested can search the forum.

I got no interest in repeatin' what, it appears to me, no one has an interest in readin'.
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Re: Abortion Overturned?

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Prove that abortion is murder.
henry quirk wrote: Fri Jul 01, 2022 4:01 pmIn other words: is what a pregnant woman carries a person, or just meat?
I seriously cannot believe how dumb you and your sidekicks are. I'm astounded beyond belief. :?

Murder requires a murderer. This has got nothing to do with a lump of fucking meat.
I'm asking you to prove that a woman who chooses to have an abortion is classed as a murderer. Until it can be proved that a woman is a murderer through the act of abortion. Then the accused woman is innocent until proven guilty in a court of law.

The presumption of innocence is a legal principle that every person accused of any crime is considered innocent until proven guilty.

Now, all you have to do is prove the woman is a murderer...that is all I'm am trying to say here, and will keep repeating this until someone comes up with the proof.
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Re: Abortion Overturned?

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Now, all you have to do is prove the woman is a murderer...that is all I'm am trying to say here, and will keep repeating this until someone comes up with the proof.
But doin' that back & forth is not what I'm here, in this thread, for.

As I say: We're no closer to an answer than we were when I first asked that question back in '19.

That is: we're no closer today than we were in '19 to agreein' on what it is a woman carries during pregnancy, and we're no closer than we were in '19 to agreein' on the moral implications of abortion.

Personally, I see no point in endlessly rehashin' any of it.

No, I'm here, and in the companion thread, with a question...

If reproductive control really is the issue on the table (and not, for example, sacrifices to Moloch, or the denigration of personhood, or just plain old eugenics) then why aren't folks talkin' about tubal ligation and vasectomy?

Both are safe, effective, single event procedures. Both are reversible. Neither is particularly controversial today. Most importantly: if reproductive control is really the issue, both allow women and men to exercise it without, for some, killin' a baby or, for others, havin' a pesky parasite removed.

No one seems much interested.

This makes me think, mebbe, just mebbe, reproductive control really isn't the issue.
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Re: Abortion Overturned?

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henry quirk wrote: Fri Jul 01, 2022 4:31 pm...............
The point is...no one will ever be able to change another persons belief. That's what beliefs are about. They are about how we each perceive the reality into which we are born as an independant thinking individual.

If someone believes that the woman who chooses to abort the life form growing in her body is a murderer then no force on earth will ever change that belief. And I for one am not going to attempt to change someone elses belief. I can only reject it.

So there we have it, according to God...women who abort a life are labeled murderers. So be it, what a fucking joke.


It's like saying...I'm going to kill myself tonight by overdosing on some drugs, because I cannot bare the idea of being alive anymore, so I am going to use my free will and deliberately end my life... and I will take to my death, the label I am a murderer because myself is not my property and I will have sinned so bad, that I will now spend the rest of eternity in hell just for believing my body was my own and not belonging to something, or someone else.

Seriously, humans are just so messed up. It's actually embarrassing beyond belief to be human.
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Re: Abortion Overturned?

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Dontaskme wrote: Fri Jul 01, 2022 4:55 pm
Well, I got no comment on any of that.

-----

So...

If reproductive control really is the issue on the table (and not, for example, sacrifices to Moloch, or the denigration of personhood, or just plain old eugenics) then why aren't folks talkin' about tubal ligation and vasectomy?

Both are safe, effective, single event procedures. Both are reversible. Neither is particularly controversial today. Most importantly: if reproductive control is really the issue, both allow women and men to exercise it without, for some, killin' a baby or, for others, havin' a pesky parasite removed.
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