Roe v Wade Overturned?

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commonsense
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Re: Abortion Overturned?

Post by commonsense »

Immanuel Can wrote: Fri Jul 01, 2022 2:23 pm
commonsense wrote: Fri Jul 01, 2022 1:18 pm
Immanuel Can wrote: Fri Jul 01, 2022 1:41 am
I'm afraid it's clear you're not understanding what's happened at all. Your "facts" are just wrong, and wrong in ways you could confirm yourself, if you went and looked.

The R v. W. decision does not make abortions criminal. It doesn't even deny that every state in the union can have unrestricted abortions. What this decision says, is that when the court formerly ruled on R v. W., back in 1973, it was overreaching and outside the constitution entirely. This decisin says, the court screwed up, and it's time to set things in right order again.

It's not actually a decision about abortion per se, at all.

Consequently, it's a decision purely about JURISDICTION. Nothing more. Nothing else.

All it says is that the Federal Government has no jurisdiction to dictate to states what their choice about abortion must be. It says that that question has to be settled at the state level.

And that's all it says.

So we have to understand this situation correctly. Abortion has not been "overturned," as Gary's headline would induce us to imagine. And it certainly has not been "criminalized," as you suggest. All it is, is a decision that states must decide. Period. No more, no less.

Let's keep the discussion sane.
Beg pardon. I should have said that the decision allows individual States to declare or to have declared abortions to be unlawful.

I haven’t read the decision, but I believe it is aimed specifically at abortions with a more generalized application to the roles of SCOTUS, the federal government and the state governments.
Your belief is incorrect. You should read the decision, I suggest. It's a purely judicial matter.

Now, the panic from the Left is interesting. It signals that they just can't stand the idea of non-centralized power in these issues. They know darn well that states like Cali and New York will keep aborting children right up to post-birth. So the actual threat of non-existence of abortions is not what they're mad about; they're mad that not everybody is going to be forced to play things their way. They're mad at the idea that there could be diversity of opinion and diversity of law among diverse states. They hate that people will have the choice to live in states that do not subsidize promiscious murder with their taxes, or to be forced to approve of it in all locales.

Let 'em rage, I say. They're totalitarians and baby killers. If they're mad, that's good: it means we're doing the right thing.
Read it. What you cite is reasonably inferred, but the decision is all about abortion rights. The decision does indeed permit any State to criminalize abortions.
commonsense
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Re: Abortion Overturned?

Post by commonsense »

Immanuel Can wrote: Fri Jul 01, 2022 2:26 pm
commonsense wrote: Fri Jul 01, 2022 2:05 pm
Immanuel Can wrote: Fri Jul 01, 2022 3:55 am
We know that a baby in utero can make its own decisions. When she kicks, it's not because the mother told her to. When she gets hiccups, the mother doesn't. Her heart beats about twice as fast as the mother's does. When a needle is inserted into the amniotic sac to kill the child, she reacts away from it. And when she is pulled apart, she screams.
You are citing reflexes, not thoughtful decisions.
[1] On what basis are you thinking you know that?

[2] Women themselves say, "The baby's kicking."

[3]Poor fools -- they should say, "The cluster of cells is being induced to kick." :lol:
[1] By definition of reflexes.

[2] They are mistaken.

[3] Yes.
commonsense
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Re: Abortion Overturned?

Post by commonsense »

henry quirk wrote: Fri Jul 01, 2022 3:16 pm
commonsense wrote: Fri Jul 01, 2022 1:05 pm
henry quirk wrote: Fri Jul 01, 2022 1:07 am

*As in on his own, yes?

If so: you've rendered anyone usin' an iron lung, or its equivalent, and, mebbe, anyone who has asthma and who uses an inhaler, as a non-person.
Good point, but I was referencing just anyone who breathes air with or without assistance.
So, just to be clear: a human being (a person?) becomes a human being (a person?) only when he draws his first breath, yeah?
Yes.
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henry quirk
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Re: Abortion Overturned?

Post by henry quirk »

commonsense wrote: Fri Jul 01, 2022 7:15 pm
henry quirk wrote: Fri Jul 01, 2022 3:16 pm
commonsense wrote: Fri Jul 01, 2022 1:05 pm

Good point, but I was referencing just anyone who breathes air with or without assistance.
So, just to be clear: a human being (a person?) becomes a human being (a person?) only when he draws his first breath, yeah?
Yes.
So: even though the entity who draws that first breath is no different after that breath than it was before that first breath, that first breath, that's the transition point.

In other words...

About to draw first breath = potential human.

Draws first breath = actual human.

Seems like an odd measure to me... 🤔

But, okay.
popeye1945
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Re: Abortion Overturned?

Post by popeye1945 »

Walker wrote: Fri Jul 01, 2022 2:43 pm
popeye1945 wrote: Thu Jun 30, 2022 5:15 pm ... as to the overturn of Roe V Wade it is not the wish of about 70 percent of the population.
:lol:

Oh hell no.

That's the very reason that the Progressives want to keep abortion as far from a legislative vote as possible. They do not want the people to speak on this issue. No sirree.

What's likely to happen is varying, legislated abortion restrictions specific to each state, particularly if politicians can find some way to keep their names out of the process. Perhaps "codify via mandate." The result will be that some states become Meccas of Death. There will be competition for customers, perhaps incentives such as free vacations, see a fabulous national park while aborting. Or perhaps bonus discount points for repeat customers. Why not both, vacation and discount points. Perhaps an upgrade to first-class while flying to the Mecca of Death. Of course by then customers will be called clients, and what with the competition for their dollars converted to the new world currency of yuan, there will be plenty of emotional support and empathy at the destination, as opposed to the clients being treated like livestock :|
Walker,

I stand corrected its a pretty even divide, the way that occurs is a really dumbed-down population, read the Christian right-wing. The United States is the only country in the western world so deeply invested in Christian fantasy. The republican party with the Christian right-wing are concerned about the unborn but seems little concerned for the needs of the now living needy, they stand in the way of all progressive policies that would bring them in par with more enlightened countries that for example provide health care systems. The following link provides a little humor that captures the essence of what I am saying.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SgjGwOByays
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Immanuel Can
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Re: Abortion Overturned?

Post by Immanuel Can »

godelian wrote: Fri Jul 01, 2022 4:00 pm
Immanuel Can wrote: Fri Jul 01, 2022 1:18 pm ...and all those other factors routinely deprive women of the protection of any man.
Why do these "strong and independent women who need no man"
In the Developing World? You're kidding, right?
Immanuel Can wrote: Fri Jul 01, 2022 1:18 pm I suggest that Islam has a hostile and abusive view of women, judging by the Chapter of Women in the Koran...which I have read, and have right here on hand, as a matter of fact.
It is not hostile but realistic, or "red-pilled", as some people would say.

No, it's hostile. It approves the physical beating of women. That's got nothing to do with "the red pill."

In my view, beating women does not make a man very impressive, to say the least. If he thinks he needs to do that, then he's insecure, weak, and not a real man, so far as I'm concerned. A real man knows he's too strong to do that; he walks away.
...all respect is ultimately based on the fear for reprisals.
Well, that's pretty obviously wrong. :shock:

There are lots of reasons to respect a person that have nothing at all to do with reprisals...achievement, nobility, moral rectitude, courage, strength, integrity, wisdom, generosity, decency, humility...tons of reasons.

Reprisals are for people who feel threatened and know they're weak. They can't achieve, and sense their vulnerabilty, so they threaten others instead of sorting themselves out.

I find that unimpressive, to say the least.
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Immanuel Can
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Re: Abortion Overturned?

Post by Immanuel Can »

commonsense wrote: Fri Jul 01, 2022 7:09 pm The decision does indeed permit any State to criminalize abortions.
The decision doesn't legislate anything about abortion. It doesn't make them criminalize it. It allows them to, if they choose to. It doesn't say they have to choose to. It just says it's a state's choice.

If California or New York wants to continue to murder babies, they are going to be able to, in view of this decision. It's just that now, the totalitarians on the Left have lost their lever for making every state knuckle under to their homicidal agenda and pay for it with their taxes.

Seems good to me. Move where you can have the state laws you like.
commonsense
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Re: Abortion Overturned?

Post by commonsense »

henry quirk wrote: Fri Jul 01, 2022 7:22 pm
commonsense wrote: Fri Jul 01, 2022 7:15 pm
henry quirk wrote: Fri Jul 01, 2022 3:16 pm

So, just to be clear: a human being (a person?) becomes a human being (a person?) only when he draws his first breath, yeah?
Yes.
So: even though the entity who draws that first breath is no different after that breath than it was before that first breath, that first breath, that's the transition point.

In other words...

About to draw first breath = potential human.

Draws first breath = actual human.

Seems like an odd measure to me... 🤔

But, okay.
Seems ‘bout right.
commonsense
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Re: Abortion Overturned?

Post by commonsense »

Immanuel Can wrote: Fri Jul 01, 2022 8:37 pm
commonsense wrote: Fri Jul 01, 2022 7:09 pm The decision does indeed permit any State to criminalize abortions.
The decision doesn't legislate anything about abortion. It doesn't make them criminalize it. It allows them to, if they choose to. It doesn't say they have to choose to. It just says it's a state's choice.

If California or New York wants to continue to murder babies, they are going to be able to, in view of this decision. It's just that now, the totalitarians on the Left have lost their lever for making every state knuckle under to their homicidal agenda and pay for it with their taxes.

Seems good to me. Move where you can have the state laws you like.
I agree: the decision allows any State to criminalize or legalize abortion.
commonsense
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Re: Abortion Overturned?

Post by commonsense »

Immanuel Can wrote: Fri Jul 01, 2022 8:37 pm
commonsense wrote: Fri Jul 01, 2022 7:09 pm The decision does indeed permit any State to criminalize abortions.
The decision doesn't legislate anything about abortion. It doesn't make them criminalize it. It allows them to, if they choose to. It doesn't say they have to choose to. It just says it's a state's choice.

If California or New York wants to continue to murder babies, they are going to be able to, in view of this decision. It's just that now, the totalitarians on the Left have lost their lever for making every state knuckle under to their homicidal agenda and pay for it with their taxes.

Seems good to me. Move where you can have the state laws you like.
Moving to a State where you like the laws seems ideal when possible—something that couldn’t happen under Roe.
Age
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Re: Abortion Overturned?

Post by Age »

Gary Childress wrote: Fri Jul 01, 2022 1:58 am
Age wrote: Thu Jun 30, 2022 12:25 pm
Gary Childress wrote: Thu Jun 30, 2022 12:10 pm

Age, yes. sometimes males make those choices too, just like sometimes females do.
WHY THEN did you SAY and CLAIM that BECAUSE 'you', "gary childress", are NOT 'a females', then 'you' COULD NOT tell "immanuel can" about any so-called attraction of murdering babies?
I stated that neither I nor IC are pregnant females who want to abort a fetus. You've completely misconstrued my words and it's wearing me down to explain everything to you. If you're not going to read charitably and sympathetically what I wrote, then I'm not going to reply anymore.
I STAND CORRECTED.

HOWEVER, what you wrote above here is ALSO NOT what you stated previously. What you ACTUALLY stated was:
Maybe if we were females who got pregnant accidentally and didn't want to go through with the pregnancy, then we'd know.

Now, what I am POINTING OUT is, you ALSO stated that;
sometimes males make those choices too, just like sometimes females do.

Which therefore means, one does NOT have to ONLY be a 'female who got pregnant accidentally and did not want to go through with the pregnancy', to answer "immanual can's" EXTREMELY SKEWED and MISLEADING question;
So what's the attraction of murdered babies?

In other words, if the 'male', who got the 'female' pregnant, accidentally, ALSO did not want to go through with the pregnancy, then "immanuel can's" question COULD apply to them AS WELL.

Are you now UNDERSTANDING what I am SAYING, and MEANING, and so are NOT now MISCONSTRUING my words?

Oh, and by the way, if you REALLY think or BELIEVE that it is 'you' who is explaining absolutely EVERY thing to 'me' here, then could you be somewhat MISTAKEN at all?
Age
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Re: Abortion Overturned?

Post by Age »

Immanuel Can wrote: Thu Jun 30, 2022 5:26 pm
Gary Childress wrote: Thu Jun 30, 2022 12:10 pm But nothing is going to convince IC that babies maybe don't magically acquire souls at birth or that there might not even be a "soul".
Let's grant that. It's not true, because I don't believe babies "magically" acquire anything, nor that it's "at birth." But let's play the game your way, Gary.

Even were all that true, and even if we grant that I could be wrong, I have no burden to prove it: because either way, I'm not going to murder anyone. :shock:
What do you mean by, "you are not going to murder ANY one"?

You HAVE BEEN, STILL ARE, and WILL CONTINUE TO, murder.

Here is a GREAT EXAMPLE of just how BLIND people REALLY ARE when they are in DENIAL. Or in other words, when the one speaking Doesn't Even kNow I Am Lying.
Immanuel Can wrote: Thu Jun 30, 2022 5:26 pm By contrast, any advocate of abortion is supporting either the "termination" of a certain-to-become-human-being, or the outright murder of one. So such a person bears the entire burden to show he/she knows he/she is in the right.
'right' in relation to 'what', EXACTLY?

If you were to say, 'wrong', then 'wrong' in relation to 'what', EXACTLY?

'you', "immanuel can", have SHOWN and thus PROVEN countless times of when 'you' do NOT YET KNOW 'right' FROM 'wrong' in Life.
Immanuel Can wrote: Thu Jun 30, 2022 5:26 pm Absent that, he/she is at least acting in bad conscience, if not outright supporting murder.

I can wait for that argument to appear. Meanwhile, I'll kill nobody.

Your turn.
LOL "immanuel can" 'you' ARE KILLING 'now'.

'you' are just too Dishonest to LOOK at this Fact, thus can NOT YET SEE thee ACTUAL Truth here, and so 'you' continue to BELIEVE WHOLEHEARTEDLY that 'you' do NOT Wrong here.

Which is Truly AMAZING to WATCH and OBSERVE, especially considering what 'you' CLAIM to KNOW and what 'you' CLAIM 'you' are here.
Age
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Re: Abortion Overturned?

Post by Age »

Immanuel Can wrote: Thu Jun 30, 2022 11:04 pm
Dontaskme wrote: Thu Jun 30, 2022 6:27 pm What does the bible say about abortion?
The Bible says nothing about rocket ships, micro computers, skateboards or marijuana, either. But it does say quite a bit about the value of life, and the wrongness of murder. It also tells us to Whom each life rightfully belongs...

And it isn't you.
So, WHY do 'you', "immanuel can", go around KILLING or MURDERING "others"?

And, if you think or BELIEVE that 'this' is laughable or completely UNTRUE, then let us have a discussion so that what thee ACTUAL and IRREFUTABLE Truth can come to LIGHT.
Age
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Re: Abortion Overturned?

Post by Age »

henry quirk wrote: Thu Jun 30, 2022 11:23 pm
Dontaskme wrote: Thu Jun 30, 2022 6:27 pm What does the bible say about abortion?
https://www.gotquestions.org/you-shall- ... urder.html
AND, here we have ANOTHER INTERPRETATION, to ADD TO the countless other INTERPRETATIONS in Existence.

ALSO, has it NOT YET BEEN RECOGNIZED that the words 'murder' or 'kill' mean DIFFERENT things, to DIFFERENT people, and in DIFFERENT times. So, EVEN IF on was to 'try to' CLAIM that what was MEANT, 'back then', to be SAID, or WRITTEN, what those words MEANT 'back then' may have absolutely NO BEARING AT ALL what those words MEAN 'in the present', whenever that may be.
Age
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Re: Abortion Overturned?

Post by Age »

commonsense wrote: Thu Jun 30, 2022 11:59 pm A fetus is a potential baby, a potential child, a potential human, but to be a real baby, a real child or a real human requires that the being breathes air.
Is this YOUR interpretation, which you agree with and accept, or THEE interpretation, which EVERY one agrees with and accepts?
commonsense wrote: Thu Jun 30, 2022 11:59 pm A fetus has potential rights. These rights become real when the fetus becomes a real human.
And WHEN, EXACTLY, do you SAY one becomes the other? For example, WHEN does a 'foetus' BEGIN, and END? When does a 'baby', BEGIN, and END? When does a 'child' BEGIN, and END? When does a 'human', BEGIN, and END?

AND, what does EVERY one SAY in regards to WHEN, EXACTLY, 'one becomes the other'?

There is ONLY One ACTUAL, IRREFUATBLE True, Right, and Correct ANSWER, and hopefully some of 'you', posters', are now starting to SEE WHEN and HOW thee ACTUAL and IRREFUTABLE Truth of things can be and are KNOWN.
commonsense wrote: Thu Jun 30, 2022 11:59 pm Whenever potential rights are in conflict with real rights, what’s real should—and would if not for SCOTUS—have priority over what is not real.

Making abortions criminal has the potential to turn unwanted pregnancies into unwanted infants. Any man who thinks he has the right to tell a woman what to do is as misogynistic as he is mistaken.
Also, I wonder how many of 'you' have ACTUALLY NOTICED just how many of the ones who CLAIM 'abortion is wrong' are usually the ones who JUDGE "others" for bringing children up WRONGLY.

Usually the ones who SAY 'abortion is wrong' are the SAME ONES who are the quickest to JUDGE "others", for example, for having "too many" children when they do not have the 'means' to support them.

"immanuel can", the self-professed "christian" here, probably being the MOST JUDGEMENTAL one here in this regard. Just LOOK AT the way "immanuel can" JUDGES those who do NOT live in the EXACT SAME way, nor even place, that "immanuel can" does.
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