Should NATO dismantle?

[Dontaskme]

Your point is wrong because it's based on a fantasy.

Your fantasy is: what is, should not be.

What is, should not be.... within the context of this discussion....is your fantasy, fool.

Do not project your own foolery as if it is mine.

What is, is without doubt or error..no one can dispute that...but this discussion has nothing to do with what we cannot control... because when we know better, when we are intelligent and knowledgable... what is, almost certainly can be seen as ..OUGHT not be.

So you need to correct your own deluded error of thinking, and stop blaming others for WHAT IS your own foolery.
You make many errors of judgement .... when you accuse others of not being able to ''think'' for themselves, or that they are ''dense''.

This sort of I'm right and you are wrong tactic is used whenever there is a sense of ''superiority complex''. For you to be right, someone has to be wrong. That's the way the human mind works...and it's a dumb and stupid game to play.

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[promethean75]

"Why isn't Nato using it's armed forces to defend the Ukrainian people?"

It's complicated man. For one thing, if a country has more to lose than gain by militarily helping another country that is being attacked by a country that isn't necessarily its enemy... but would become its enemy if it tried to help the country under attack... that country might ought not help the country under attack.

Unless you have a contract with them. That's the NATO part. Technically, no countries are under contract to come to Ukraine's aid in the event of war. Putin attacked in the nick of time. Had he waited until Ukraine made the NATO roster, we'd be well into WW3 by now.

Also it's easier to say 'no, we're not putting boots on the ground there' because it's Russia that's attacking. And these guys are a yuge country with first rate military capabilities. AND they're bedfellows with China too.

Kinda makes it easier to not involve oneself in that war unless directly obligated to. And NATO members are secretly glad that Ukraine isn't a member, btw, so they can avoid confrontation with Russia.

Sanctions on the other hand is the kind of thing you can do. It's not an aggressive act in the same sense as military involvement. Putin can't justify an act of aggression on the U.S. any worse than a cyber attack, and the U.S. knows this.

Sanctions are a form of withdrawing oneself from economic interaction with the offending country. This is not an aggressive act, although it has aggressive consequences.

Now providing weapons for the Ukraine on the other hand. This is soft-aggression. Not quite bad enough to warrant a missile attack on the U.S., but certainly aggressive enough do warrant a cyber attack.

But Putin's spade in the pocket is that through Russia the oil flows, so sanctions will be costly for the U.S., Canada and European countries involved. Putin knows this.

Frankly I think there will be a swift regime change in Russia at the end of this ordeal. A coup which will remove Putin from power. It will be a decision made in an agreement on a yacht on a cold night between Putin's highest generals, the oligarchs and billionaires, and a hand full of politicians. Like in a John Grisham novel.

[Dontaskme]

"Why isn't Nato using it's armed forces to defend the Ukrainian people?"

It's complicated man. For one thing, if a country has more to lose than gain by militarily helping another country that is being attacked by a country that isn't necessarily its enemy... but would become its enemy if it tried to help the country under attack... that country might ought not help the country under attack.

Unless you have a contract with them. That's the NATO part. Technically, no countries are under contract to come to Ukraine's aid in the event of war. Putin attacked in the nick of time. Had he waited until Ukraine made the NATO roster, we'd be well into WW3 by now.

Also it's easier to say 'no, we're not putting boots on the ground there' because it's Russia that's attacking. And these guys are a yuge country with first rate military capabilities. AND they're bedfellows with China too.

Kinda makes it easier to not involve oneself in that war unless directly obligated to. And NATO members are secretly glad that Ukraine isn't a member, btw, so they can avoid confrontation with Russia.

Thank-you, finally someone willing to go deeper on this issue...thanks for helping me to understand the reason why NATO will not get involved. I appreciate your views on the matter. I do already understand what you have said, and why NATO will not get involved with the war directly.

NATO states that an attack against one member of NATO should be considered an attack against all.

So Nato states that unless you are a member of Nato.. then you are on your own. I get that. But to me, an attack on one innocent person who never asked for war..is an attack on all of us...we're all vulnerable here, not just non-members of Nato.


According to Nato.. we all better join forces pretty pronto. . else get our butts kicked. So having figured that out, then the whole point of NATO is just to be a formidable force which is only of a ''deterrent'' nature...and that's it...nothing else.. Nato is not actually going to engage itself in any kind of superpower conflict..like EVER. . ok, I get that.

So it's like Ukraine is some kind of sacrifice for Russia's agenda..whatever that maybe, only Putins knows.

If that be the case...then as the leader of Ukraine...I would have just advised the people of the land to surrender to Russia, simply because no one is going to help you fight against Russia...and Russia is not fighting with you just to lose..Russia is hell bent on winning no matter what the cost, and there is ABSOLUTELY nothing you can do about it.

[Dontaskme]

Sanctions are a form of withdrawing oneself from economic interaction with the offending country. This is not an aggressive act, although it has aggressive consequences.

Now providing weapons for the Ukraine on the other hand. This is soft-aggression. Not quite bad enough to warrant a missile attack on the U.S., but certainly aggressive enough do warrant a cyber attack.

But Putin's spade in the pocket is that through Russia the oil flows, so sanctions will be costly for the U.S., Canada and European countries involved. Putin knows this.

Frankly I think there will be a swift regime change in Russia at the end of this ordeal. A coup which will remove Putin from power. It will be a decision made in an agreement on a yacht on a cold night between Putin's highest generals, the oligarchs and billionaires, and a hand full of politicians. Like in a John Grisham novel.

I agree with you...thanks for your personal analysis on the sitch.

[Dontaskme]

Nato's love song to herself.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VjEq-r2agqc





In this proud land we grew up strong
We were wanted all along
I was taught to fight, taught to win
I never thought I could fail
No fight left or so it seems
I am a man whose dreams have all deserted
I've changed my face, I've changed my name
But no one wants you when you lose
Don't give up
'cause you have friends
Don't give up
You're not beaten yet
Don't give up
I know you can make it good
Though I saw it all around
Never thought I could be affected
Thought that we'd be the last to go
It is so strange the way things turn
Drove the night toward my home
The place that I was born, on the lakeside
As daylight broke, I saw the earth
The trees had burned down to the ground
Don't give up
You still have us
Don't give up
We don't need much of anything
Don't give up
'cause somewhere there's a place
Where we belong
Rest your head
You worry too much
It's going to be alright
When times get rough
You can fall back on us
Don't give up
Please don't give up
'got to walk out of here
I can't take anymore
Going to stand on that bridge
Keep my eyes down below
Whatever may come
And whatever may go
That river's flowing
That river's flowing
Moved on to another town
Tried hard to settle down
For every job, so many men
So many men no-one needs
Don't give up
'cause you have friends
Don't give up
You're not the only one
Don't give up
No reason to be ashamed
Don't give up
You still have us
Don't give up now
We're proud of who you are
Don't give up
You know it's never been easy
Don't give up
'cause I believe there's the a place
There's a place where we belong.