Is Success Luck or Hard Work?...

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commonsense
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Re: Is Success Luck or Hard Work?...

Post by commonsense »

Scott Mayers wrote: Wed Apr 06, 2022 2:00 am
simplicity wrote: Sun Apr 03, 2022 8:09 pm ...

It appears as if you are over-thinking this a bit. Those who are hard workers are generally going to do better than those who are not. This should be obvious to everybody who has attended school.
You place the cart before the horse, as others here may be doing. The one paying the worker has the power; the employer is the one who hires the worker, not the other way around. If one works on their own for their own, one can improve upon their condition because they guarantee their own rewards. The topic's reference for 'success' here is not about one's personal means to succeed when or where they have the sole power over their conditions. This is about success regarding one's relation to society and most significantly, those which can be measured in terms of common social value.
I’ve been thinking that this thread has to do with success more broadly—success in workmanship, in scholarship, in love and marriage, in parenthood etc. Am I putting the cart before the horse in doing so?
Scott Mayers
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Joined: Wed Jul 08, 2015 1:53 am

Re: Is Success Luck or Hard Work?...

Post by Scott Mayers »

commonsense wrote: Wed Apr 06, 2022 2:50 am
Scott Mayers wrote: Wed Apr 06, 2022 2:00 am
simplicity wrote: Sun Apr 03, 2022 8:09 pm ...

It appears as if you are over-thinking this a bit. Those who are hard workers are generally going to do better than those who are not. This should be obvious to everybody who has attended school.
You place the cart before the horse, as others here may be doing. The one paying the worker has the power; the employer is the one who hires the worker, not the other way around. If one works on their own for their own, one can improve upon their condition because they guarantee their own rewards. The topic's reference for 'success' here is not about one's personal means to succeed when or where they have the sole power over their conditions. This is about success regarding one's relation to society and most significantly, those which can be measured in terms of common social value.
I’ve been thinking that this thread has to do with success more broadly—success in workmanship, in scholarship, in love and marriage, in parenthood etc. Am I putting the cart before the horse in doing so?
Yes and No. The concept of 'success' as I and Veritas was using it in context refers to 'success' as EXCLUSIVELY defined in or by society. That is, it isn't about whether you can 'succeed' in trivial goals that are personally defined. All monetary success is often correlated though. So monetary success IMPLIES personal success.

By the way, for you or others, I just watched an excellent documentary on this called, "The Science of Success", through David Suzuki's "Nature of Things" by Canada's CBC Network. It permitted interpreting 'success' as it pertains directly to one's own intentions AS THEY RELATE to society and given the 'common' ideals imply rewards FROM society, the successes at issue were rewards in terms of the rewards of popularity due to wealth.

They discussed 'success' as it relates to experiments involving getting science papers published and sports fame, as two apparently non-monetary goals that nevertheless assures potential monetary successes as well. Regardless of interpretation, it STILL argued that luck play the bigger role.

The doc is new and so IF they ever put it online for all others outside of Canada, such as on YouTube, I'll let you know. You can attempt to see this by using proxies for those who use them and then looking up "Nature of Things Science of Success" in your search engine.
Age
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Re: Is Success Luck or Hard Work?...

Post by Age »

Scott Mayers wrote: Wed Apr 06, 2022 1:48 am
Age wrote: Sat Apr 02, 2022 1:56 pm ...
I have nothing to say to you and won't be reading nor responding. You are intentionally inconsistent and a wasting my time.
Here is ANOTHER ONE who makes a CLAIM, but does NOT back it up with absolutely ANY 'thing' AT ALL.

WHERE have I been "inconsistent"? And,

WHY CLAIM that the SUPPOSED "inconsistency" was "intentional"?

BUT what we are to ASCERTAIN here is that 'you', "scott mayers", are UNABLE to back up and support this CLAIM of YOURS here, RIGHT?
Age
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Re: Is Success Luck or Hard Work?...

Post by Age »

Scott Mayers wrote: Wed Apr 06, 2022 2:00 am
simplicity wrote: Sun Apr 03, 2022 8:09 pm ...

It appears as if you are over-thinking this a bit. Those who are hard workers are generally going to do better than those who are not. This should be obvious to everybody who has attended school.
You place the cart before the horse, as others here may be doing. The one paying the worker has the power; the employer is the one who hires the worker, not the other way around.
But, "the power" is only GIVEN to "the employer" by "the employee".

Therefore, as can be CLEARLY SEEN here it is "the employee" who has 'the power', here.
Scott Mayers wrote: Wed Apr 06, 2022 2:00 am If one works on their own for their own, one can improve upon their condition because they guarantee their own rewards. The topic's reference for 'success' here is not about one's personal means to succeed when or where they have the sole power over their conditions. This is about success regarding one's relation to society and most significantly, those which can be measured in terms of common social value.
WHICH 'society' are 'you' referring to here, EXACTLY?

And, WHAT is 'common' is VERY RELATIVE, OBVIOUSLY.
Age
Posts: 20201
Joined: Sun Aug 05, 2018 8:17 am

Re: Is Success Luck or Hard Work?...

Post by Age »

Scott Mayers wrote: Wed Apr 06, 2022 6:46 am
commonsense wrote: Wed Apr 06, 2022 2:50 am
Scott Mayers wrote: Wed Apr 06, 2022 2:00 am

You place the cart before the horse, as others here may be doing. The one paying the worker has the power; the employer is the one who hires the worker, not the other way around. If one works on their own for their own, one can improve upon their condition because they guarantee their own rewards. The topic's reference for 'success' here is not about one's personal means to succeed when or where they have the sole power over their conditions. This is about success regarding one's relation to society and most significantly, those which can be measured in terms of common social value.
I’ve been thinking that this thread has to do with success more broadly—success in workmanship, in scholarship, in love and marriage, in parenthood etc. Am I putting the cart before the horse in doing so?
Yes and No. The concept of 'success' as I and Veritas was using it in context refers to 'success' as EXCLUSIVELY defined in or by society. That is, it isn't about whether you can 'succeed' in trivial goals that are personally defined. All monetary success is often correlated though. So monetary success IMPLIES personal success.

By the way, for you or others, I just watched an excellent documentary on this called, "The Science of Success", through David Suzuki's "Nature of Things" by Canada's CBC Network. It permitted interpreting 'success' as it pertains directly to one's own intentions AS THEY RELATE to society and given the 'common' ideals imply rewards FROM society, the successes at issue were rewards in terms of the rewards of popularity due to wealth.
Here we can CLEARLY SEE just how DISTORTED and TWISTED the adult human being REALLY WAS, back in THOSE DAYS when this WAS BEING WRITTEN.
Scott Mayers wrote: Wed Apr 06, 2022 6:46 am They discussed 'success' as it relates to experiments involving getting science papers published and sports fame, as two apparently non-monetary goals that nevertheless assures potential monetary successes as well. Regardless of interpretation, it STILL argued that luck play the bigger role.

The doc is new and so IF they ever put it online for all others outside of Canada, such as on YouTube, I'll let you know. You can attempt to see this by using proxies for those who use them and then looking up "Nature of Things Science of Success" in your search engine.
Scott Mayers
Posts: 2446
Joined: Wed Jul 08, 2015 1:53 am

Re: Is Success Luck or Hard Work?...

Post by Scott Mayers »

Age wrote: Wed Apr 06, 2022 11:02 am
Scott Mayers wrote: Wed Apr 06, 2022 2:00 am
simplicity wrote: Sun Apr 03, 2022 8:09 pm ...

It appears as if you are over-thinking this a bit. Those who are hard workers are generally going to do better than those who are not. This should be obvious to everybody who has attended school.
You place the cart before the horse, as others here may be doing. The one paying the worker has the power; the employer is the one who hires the worker, not the other way around.
But, "the power" is only GIVEN to "the employer" by "the employee".

Therefore, as can be CLEARLY SEEN here it is "the employee" who has 'the power', here.
This is a great example of your intentional volitility with everything I say. Who is the boss? You are implying that the employee has the power to MAKE the employer hire them? And in context you should be able to interpret me charitably but opted to propose that the power I referred to is one's literal energy expense that employers take advantage of when utilizing employees. Thus, you are being hostile and insincere.

Go pick a fight with someone else. Your everpresent "flippancy" with me is turning my prior stance in your defence into a lost cause. Note that besides the nominative definition of 'flippancy' as meaning one who is not taking this serious is that it was meant to point out that you 'flip' viewpoints on a dime without being clear where you actually stand. Thus, you prove your insincerity IF you are sufficiently intelligent enough (the charity I am granting you) or are sincerely intellectually immature (the possiblility that you are unable to be consistent due to some personal mental illness.) Either way, I'm not wasting my time on those I am unable to affect or find common grounds with here.
DPMartin
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Re: Is Success Luck or Hard Work?...

Post by DPMartin »

Scott Mayers wrote: Tue Mar 29, 2022 6:58 am YouTube linked me to Veritasium's video, and I'm forwarding it here: "Is Success Luck or Hard Work?".

For all political discussions that go on here, this video presents a careful look at whether luck or effort matters more to one's success. I already shared this view and have promoted all the ideas in parts of my own arguments everywhere. Veritasium did a better job at summarizing this and explains with scientific rationality.

What are your thoughts? Did you CHANGE any view after watching?
i do believe entertainers, Elvis Presley and Jonny Carson both answered that with being in the right place at the right time and being prepared for that opportunity.

you can always read "think and grow rich" which was commissioned by Andrew Carnegie to be written.

success is probably relative in goals, but any kind of success requires winning. heck a goal could be to play video games and get high and party all day every day.

or just have peace of mind.
simplicity
Posts: 750
Joined: Thu May 20, 2021 5:23 pm

Re: Is Success Luck or Hard Work?...

Post by simplicity »

Scott Mayers wrote: Wed Apr 06, 2022 2:00 am
simplicity wrote: Sun Apr 03, 2022 8:09 pm ...

It appears as if you are over-thinking this a bit. Those who are hard workers are generally going to do better than those who are not. This should be obvious to everybody who has attended school.
You place the cart before the horse, as others here may be doing. The one paying the worker has the power; the employer is the one who hires the worker, not the other way around. If one works on their own for their own, one can improve upon their condition because they guarantee their own rewards. The topic's reference for 'success' here is not about one's personal means to succeed when or where they have the sole power over their conditions. This is about success regarding one's relation to society and most significantly, those which can be measured in terms of common social value.
Scott, this is not the 1800's. In the modern world, if you work hard [as an employee] and save some of your earnings, you will generally be able to rise-up the economic ladder. If you are expecting somebody who finds themselves with minimal education and maximum expenses [family] attempting to make that work living on a minimum wage income, that's not going to happen.

People need to make good choices. After all, isn't it the purpose of the poor to scare the hell out of the working class so they will keep going to those jobs they love so much! :) It's about making good choices in life. Everybody must suffer the consequences of their actions [one way or another].
promethean75
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Re: Is Success Luck or Hard Work?...

Post by promethean75 »

That's because in this wonky system, everyone is not obligated to work (unless physically handicapped) and can find a way to live off exploiting easily obtained welfare and government assistance.

Didn't I tell ya capitalism creates its own lumpenproletariat, its own bad guys, its own lower social strata.

Then, it usually blames the 'left' for the scourge of useless, unemployed lower classe tax burdens it's experiencing. That's my favorite part.
Age
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Re: Is Success Luck or Hard Work?...

Post by Age »

Scott Mayers wrote: Wed Apr 06, 2022 11:47 am
Age wrote: Wed Apr 06, 2022 11:02 am
Scott Mayers wrote: Wed Apr 06, 2022 2:00 am

You place the cart before the horse, as others here may be doing. The one paying the worker has the power; the employer is the one who hires the worker, not the other way around.
But, "the power" is only GIVEN to "the employer" by "the employee".

Therefore, as can be CLEARLY SEEN here it is "the employee" who has 'the power', here.
This is a great example of your intentional volitility with everything I say.
So, if I just express My OWN views, which just happen to NOT coincide with YOUR views, then, to you, that MEANS that I have an "intentional volatility" "with EVERY thing you say", correct?
Scott Mayers wrote: Wed Apr 06, 2022 11:47 am Who is the boss?
The 'boss' word being in relation to 'what', EXACTLY?
Scott Mayers wrote: Wed Apr 06, 2022 11:47 am You are implying that the employee has the power to MAKE the employer hire them?
Noticed, and noted, is that your sentence here, with a question mark at the end, is ACTUALLY your ASSUMPTION and what you BELIEVE is true, correct?

By the way, your ASSUMPTION here could NOT be FURTHER FROM thee ACTUAL Truth of 'things'.
Scott Mayers wrote: Wed Apr 06, 2022 11:47 am And in context you should be able to interpret me charitably but opted to propose that the power I referred to is one's literal energy expense that employers take advantage of when utilizing employees. Thus, you are being hostile and insincere.
AGAIN, you could NOT be MORE FURTHER AWAY from what thee ACTUAL Truth IS, EXACTLY.
Scott Mayers wrote: Wed Apr 06, 2022 11:47 am Go pick a fight with someone else. Your everpresent "flippancy" with me is turning my prior stance in your defence into a lost cause. Note that besides the nominative definition of 'flippancy' as meaning one who is not taking this serious is that it was meant to point out that you 'flip' viewpoints on a dime without being clear where you actually stand.
LOL ONCE AGAIN, ACCUSATIONS and CLAIMS get made, but WITHOUT ANY examples NOR proof, AT ALL.
Scott Mayers wrote: Wed Apr 06, 2022 11:47 am Thus, you prove your insincerity IF you are sufficiently intelligent enough (the charity I am granting you) or are sincerely intellectually immature (the possiblility that you are unable to be consistent due to some personal mental illness.) Either way, I'm not wasting my time on those I am unable to affect or find common grounds with here.
LOOK, you want to CLAIM that I am so-called "inconsistent". BUT, I will now CLAIM that it is 'you', "scott mayers", who is being BLATANTLY INCONSISTENT here. And, the DIFFERENCE between 'you' and 'I' is that, unlike 'you', 'I' WILL ACTUALLY back up and support My CLAIMS.

SEE, you said and wrote: I have nothing to say to you and won't be reading nor responding. You are intentionally inconsistent and a wasting my time.

Which is, OBVIOUSLY, completely INCONSISTENT, and CONTRADICTORY, with what you have just said and wrote here now.
Age
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Joined: Sun Aug 05, 2018 8:17 am

Re: Is Success Luck or Hard Work?...

Post by Age »

Look, BOTH some luck and some work play a part in 'success'.

'Success' can be in relation to MANY 'things' and have absolutely NOTHING AT ALL to do with the completely UNNECESSARY 'thing' called "money".

However, if one BELIEVES that there 'free will' exists, then they might believe that it is ALL work, and NO luck at all, which leads to 'success', and conversely, if one BELIEVES that there is NO 'free will' and only 'determinism' exists, then they might that it is ALL luck, and NO work at all, which leads to 'success'. But, OF COURSE, this ALL DEPENDS ON what 'success' is in relation to, EXACTLY.

But, from my point of view, because 'free will' AND 'determinsm' BOTH play a part in thee ACTUAL Truth of 'things' here, there is ALSO 'some luck' and 'some work' that is NEEDED for 'success', but, AGAIN, 'success' is a VERY RELATIVE term so 'success' in 'what', EXACTLY, needs to be LOOKED AT and DISCUSSED, FIRST, BEFORE what thee ACTUAL Truth of 'things' is can be FOUND, or UNCOVERED.
promethean75
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Re: Is Success Luck or Hard Work?...

Post by promethean75 »

EXACTLY.
commonsense
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Re: Is Success Luck or Hard Work?...

Post by commonsense »

commonsense wrote: Sat Apr 02, 2022 4:21 pm For all the reasons given in this thread that success is luck and for all the reasons given that success is hard work, it is clear that success is a conglomeration of the two. The more luck one has, the less hard work one needs to perform to achieve one’s desired goals, and vice versa.
That success relies on both luck and hard work was described as above over a page ago.
Scott Mayers
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Joined: Wed Jul 08, 2015 1:53 am

Re: Is Success Luck or Hard Work?...

Post by Scott Mayers »

simplicity wrote: Wed Apr 06, 2022 5:54 pm
Scott Mayers wrote: Wed Apr 06, 2022 2:00 am
simplicity wrote: Sun Apr 03, 2022 8:09 pm ...

It appears as if you are over-thinking this a bit. Those who are hard workers are generally going to do better than those who are not. This should be obvious to everybody who has attended school.
You place the cart before the horse, as others here may be doing. The one paying the worker has the power; the employer is the one who hires the worker, not the other way around. If one works on their own for their own, one can improve upon their condition because they guarantee their own rewards. The topic's reference for 'success' here is not about one's personal means to succeed when or where they have the sole power over their conditions. This is about success regarding one's relation to society and most significantly, those which can be measured in terms of common social value.
Scott, this is not the 1800's. In the modern world, if you work hard [as an employee] and save some of your earnings, you will generally be able to rise-up the economic ladder. If you are expecting somebody who finds themselves with minimal education and maximum expenses [family] attempting to make that work living on a minimum wage income, that's not going to happen.

People need to make good choices. After all, isn't it the purpose of the poor to scare the hell out of the working class so they will keep going to those jobs they love so much! :) It's about making good choices in life. Everybody must suffer the consequences of their actions [one way or another].
Go take your religiousity somewhere else. IF the power of the empoverished masses supercede the power of the wealth, the poor would BE the 'wealthy'. What the fuck kind of logic is that?
simplicity
Posts: 750
Joined: Thu May 20, 2021 5:23 pm

Re: Is Success Luck or Hard Work?...

Post by simplicity »

Scott Mayers wrote: Fri Apr 08, 2022 12:36 pm Go take your religiousity somewhere else. IF the power of the empoverished masses supercede the power of the wealth, the poor would BE the 'wealthy'. What the fuck kind of logic is that?
People are individuals not groups. Individuals can succeed, groups only pander to their elite leaders
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