Example of how Capitalists impose harm upon the poor DIRECTLY...

[Immanuel Can]

Note that the present war with Ukraine is based upon Putin recognizing how Trump's rightwing strategy and cons have worked to appeal to stupid people and hides accountability.

I'm not interested in Trump here, but I have to say I find that comment hilarious.

So...Putin doesn't invade anybody while Trump's president. Then Biden becomes president, and he "becomes emboldened" invades Ukraine. Which is Trump's fault.

Very, very entertaining.

And IF you actually believe in your rhetoric, you are retarded.

Oh, don't worry...I don't believe it. It was your claim.

I'm done with you.

That's up to you. Conversations are always a free choice.

[Scott Mayers]

I'm not interested in Trump here, but I have to say I find that comment hilarious.

So...Putin doesn't invade anybody while Trump's president. Then Biden becomes president, and he "becomes emboldened" invades Ukraine. Which is Trump's fault.

Very, very entertaining.

And IF you actually believe in your rhetoric, you are retarded.

Oh, don't worry...I don't believe it. It was your claim.

Claim? This thread is about scams from OUR 'capitalist' society, not an argument for or against socialism. Rational people deal with what you can know locally, not propaganda regarding worlds we have no means to determine is or is not real with blinders on. You need to look in the mirror before you blindly hate what you cannot know in principle.

What we DO know is that the foundational concepts of capitalism favors deception as a norm. And it is the very same characters who when in convenient trust of people collectively under the idea of 'socialism' who HAVE a capitalistic virtue that makes them opt to exploit their powers of position opportunistically, like Putins or Trumps.

ON TOPIC, the particular examples I intend for this thread represents PROOF of HOW we normalize deception here. And if you were sincere, you'd be responding to those and ....if fair, contributing your own dislikes and grievances within OUR own systems self-critically. Your strict advocacy for looking at the political landscape in terms of black and white, good versus evil, with a drive to favor the extremes demonstrates why those who suffer in third world conditions turn to the forms of 'socialism' that turns them into capitalistic dictatorships when they see that they cannot compete by being fair. "Freedom" should not merely be for the wealthy or powerful who know how best to exploit others for selfish profit. But because that is who it favors in the capitalistic extremes, the rest of the world has to either accept it like mice or get angry and fight equally as bears by BEING as crooked as the most clever capitalist exploiters monopolizing our industries.

We need to stop the normalizing of deception or we are all doomed.

[Immanuel Can]

And IF you actually believe in your rhetoric, you are retarded.

Oh, don't worry...I don't believe it. It was your claim.

Claim? This thread is about scams from OUR 'capitalist' society, not an argument for or against socialism.

I disagree.

I think that if one wishes to rail against the status quo, one owes it to the people living under the status quo not to be simply destructive and campaign for the burning down of everything in which they live and upon which they currently depend. That's a rotten thing to do. Rather, one owes it to them to describe to them what the alternative will be...to tell them what society will look like when the "revolution" is over, and also what sort of price they are going to have to pay for that "revolution."

So we have every reason to ask, "If Capitalism is burned, what is put in its place?" And the option we should rule out first is Socialism -- it's clearly no good at all, based on its 100% record of failure economically, and its record of destroying individual rights, and on its utter disasters in terms of killing people.

So then the question arises, if not the status quo, and not Socialism, then what are you proposing? And that's a very fair question.

[Sculptor]

Example of how Socialists impose harm upon the poor directly...

North Korea, Vietnam, Cambodia, Zimbabwe, Venezuela, Albania, Cuba, Russia, China, and every other Socialist society that has ever existed. Now it's also Canada, the USA, Great Britain...because to the measure that the Socialists hold sway, they are decaying at the roots. And to the measure that the Socialists don't, they are doing much better than the former countries.

Vietnam, cambodia are doing much better by themselves than they were when capitalism was murdering them with bullets and incendiaries..
You could also have mentioned Laos who are still trying to clear up the bombs dropped by capitalism in an undeclared war.
North Korea is more like christianity than socialism. Its a theocracy if you had not noticed.
The only problems with Cuba and Venezuela are the international sanctions imposed on them by the US,
But despite the attempt to destroy their economies they both have higher levels of literacy than the US.

[RCSaunders]

Example of how Socialists impose harm upon the poor directly...

North Korea, Vietnam, Cambodia, Zimbabwe, Venezuela, Albania, Cuba, Russia, China, and every other Socialist society that has ever existed. Now it's also Canada, the USA, Great Britain...because to the measure that the Socialists hold sway, they are decaying at the roots. And to the measure that the Socialists don't, they are doing much better than the former countries.

Vietnam, cambodia are doing much better by themselves than they were when capitalism was murdering them with bullets and incendiaries..
You could also have mentioned Laos who are still trying to clear up the bombs dropped by capitalism in an undeclared war.
North Korea is more like christianity than socialism. Its a theocracy if you had not noticed.
The only problems with Cuba and Venezuela are the international sanctions imposed on them by the US,
But despite the attempt to destroy their economies they both have higher levels of literacy than the US.

Vietnam, cambodia are doing much better by themselves than they were when a democratic government was murdering them with bullets and incendiaries..
You could also have mentioned Laos who are still trying to clear up the bombs dropped by a democracy in an undeclared war.
North Korea is more like christianity than socialism. Its a theocracy if you had not noticed.
The only problems with Cuba and Venezuela are the international sanctions imposed on them by a democracies,
But despite the attempt to destroy their economies they both have higher levels of literacy than the Zimbabwe.

[Literacy
Total population, US 99%
Total population, Venezuela, 93.4%]

There is no such thing as a, "capitalist," political system. It's just a stupid epithet meant to denigrate individuals who choose to make something of themselves rather than become pawns in some oppressive socialistic system.

[RCSaunders]

[This is for those lately on this site arguing for how Capitalism serves to lift up the poor as though Corporations have virtuous intentions.]

I'm presently watching the news and discovered WHY certain stores in my 'inner city' areas are closing and not returning:

Loblaws, the company of "SuperStore", "Extra Foods", and now, "No Frills", had ownership of two known stores of which one closed a few years back and another is closing soon. The area seemed to NEED these stores but for some reason, these stores closed AND, what I discovered that is most disturbing, ....Loblaws uses contracts to the new buyers that NO STORE can replace the owner's purchases EVEN IF IT IS IN DEMAND!

This proves a good example of the 'legal' abuses in our system that permits Corporations to manipulate means to FORCE unnatural FAVOR for them. The means of LOCKING OUT NEW stores is done by buying out major store locations and, when or where they fall below expected profits, they close the ones in the inner cities (not necessarily poor here in Canada, ....yet).

What is a capitalist?

You just described governments and government created fictions called corporations. Is that what you mean by capitalist?

Now if you mean governments and government protected, regulated, and subsidized corporations, they certainly do oppress, not just the poor, but everyone.

But no business man who, operating without any government (or any other agency of force) supporting or subsidizing him can harm anyone. He either provides a service and product that others willing choose as beneficial to themselves, or he goes out of business.

[Sculptor]

Example of how Socialists impose harm upon the poor directly...

North Korea, Vietnam, Cambodia, Zimbabwe, Venezuela, Albania, Cuba, Russia, China, and every other Socialist society that has ever existed. Now it's also Canada, the USA, Great Britain...because to the measure that the Socialists hold sway, they are decaying at the roots. And to the measure that the Socialists don't, they are doing much better than the former countries.

Vietnam, cambodia are doing much better by themselves than they were when capitalism was murdering them with bullets and incendiaries..
You could also have mentioned Laos who are still trying to clear up the bombs dropped by capitalism in an undeclared war.
North Korea is more like christianity than socialism. Its a theocracy if you had not noticed.
The only problems with Cuba and Venezuela are the international sanctions imposed on them by the US,
But despite the attempt to destroy their economies they both have higher levels of literacy than the US.

Vietnam, cambodia are doing much better by themselves than they were when a democratic government was murdering them with bullets and incendiaries..
You could also have mentioned Laos who are still trying to clear up the bombs dropped by a democracy in an undeclared war.
North Korea is more like christianity than socialism. Its a theocracy if you had not noticed.
The only problems with Cuba and Venezuela are the international sanctions imposed on them by a democracies,
But despite the attempt to destroy their economies they both have higher levels of literacy than the Zimbabwe.

[Literacy
Total population, US 99%
Total population, Venezuela, 93.4%]

There is no such thing as a, "capitalist," political system. It's just a stupid epithet meant to denigrate individuals who choose to make something of themselves rather than become pawns in some oppressive socialistic system.

Glad you spotted my irony.
Yes, there is neither any such thing as socialism in the same way.
All systems have elements of both things.
A fully capitalist system would be one fat bastard with everything who has eventually bought up everything and outcompeted everyone.
Capitalism has to be mitigated by some socialism such as workers rights, work place protection, free schools, health systems, public projects such as road building, regulations, laws against monopoly etc...

[Immanuel Can]

The only problems with Cuba and Venezuela are the international sanctions imposed on them by the US,

I've been to Cuba. I have Cuban friends.

You're smoking dope.

[Sculptor]

The only problems with Cuba and Venezuela are the international sanctions imposed on them by the US,

I've been to Cuba. I have Cuban friends.

You're smoking dope.

Before the revolution Cuba was little more than an offshore casino and whorehouse of American business men.

They have stood against draconian sanctions for nearly 60 years. That is a remarkable achievement.

[RCSaunders]

Vietnam, cambodia are doing much better by themselves than they were when capitalism was murdering them with bullets and incendiaries..
You could also have mentioned Laos who are still trying to clear up the bombs dropped by capitalism in an undeclared war.
North Korea is more like christianity than socialism. Its a theocracy if you had not noticed.
The only problems with Cuba and Venezuela are the international sanctions imposed on them by the US,
But despite the attempt to destroy their economies they both have higher levels of literacy than the US.

Vietnam, cambodia are doing much better by themselves than they were when a democratic government was murdering them with bullets and incendiaries..
You could also have mentioned Laos who are still trying to clear up the bombs dropped by a democracy in an undeclared war.
North Korea is more like christianity than socialism. Its a theocracy if you had not noticed.
The only problems with Cuba and Venezuela are the international sanctions imposed on them by a democracies,
But despite the attempt to destroy their economies they both have higher levels of literacy than the Zimbabwe.

[Literacy
Total population, US 99%
Total population, Venezuela, 93.4%]

There is no such thing as a, "capitalist," political system. It's just a stupid epithet meant to denigrate individuals who choose to make something of themselves rather than become pawns in some oppressive socialistic system.

Glad you spotted my irony.
Yes, there is neither any such thing as socialism in the same way.
All systems have elements of both things.
A fully capitalist system would be one fat bastard with everything who has eventually bought up everything and outcompeted everyone.
Capitalism has to be mitigated by some socialism such as workers rights, work place protection, free schools, health systems, public projects such as road building, regulations, laws against monopoly etc...

I'll ask you the same thing I asked Scott: "What is a capitalist?"

If a capitalist is someone who buys everything and, "outcompetes everyone else," wouldn't you have to explain how he got all that money to buy everything with (and whom from) and what he did to, "outcompete," everyone with what? If he bought everything, whom did he buy it from, and those he bought it from, did they just throw the money he gave them away, or did he make them rich too? There's a lot missing in your description.

Do you think schools, teachers, hospitals, medicine, medical supplies and machines, building supplies, road building machines, and all those things required to provide individuals with what you think they are just supposed to have because the exist are just lying around for someone to pick up an use? Who is going to build the schools, and hospitals, and doctor's offices, and factories, and who will design and make the machines, discover and produce the medicine and medical machines. and with what and where does it come from? Are all those whose minds, time, energy, and effort are dedicated to producing all the things you think everyone is just suppose to have supposed to do it for nothing. How will they feed and clothe themselves and their families or will society take care of that too?

Not saying you are wrong, but I think it all needs a little more explanation. Sounds a bit Utopian to me.

I doubt very much that what you describe as a capitalist would be possible without a government directly or indirectly supplying the coercive power necessary to do what you think a capitalist does.

[Sculptor]

Vietnam, cambodia are doing much better by themselves than they were when a democratic government was murdering them with bullets and incendiaries..
You could also have mentioned Laos who are still trying to clear up the bombs dropped by a democracy in an undeclared war.
North Korea is more like christianity than socialism. Its a theocracy if you had not noticed.
The only problems with Cuba and Venezuela are the international sanctions imposed on them by a democracies,
But despite the attempt to destroy their economies they both have higher levels of literacy than the Zimbabwe.

[Literacy
Total population, US 99%
Total population, Venezuela, 93.4%]

There is no such thing as a, "capitalist," political system. It's just a stupid epithet meant to denigrate individuals who choose to make something of themselves rather than become pawns in some oppressive socialistic system.

Glad you spotted my irony.
Yes, there is neither any such thing as socialism in the same way.
All systems have elements of both things.
A fully capitalist system would be one fat bastard with everything who has eventually bought up everything and outcompeted everyone.
Capitalism has to be mitigated by some socialism such as workers rights, work place protection, free schools, health systems, public projects such as road building, regulations, laws against monopoly etc...

I'll ask you the same thing I asked Scott: "What is a capitalist?"

If a capitalist is someone who buys everything and, "outcompetes everyone else," wouldn't you have to explain how he got all that money to buy everything with (and whom from) and what he did to, "outcompete," everyone with what? If he bought everything, whom did he buy it from, and those he bought it from, did they just throw the money he gave them away, or did he make them rich too? There's a lot missing in your description.

With respect I did not say "capitalist" but "fully capitalist". No such person exists, mostly because the people have placed obstacles in their way, to own everything and most would have to work within a system which mitigates the end game of winner take all.

Do you think schools, teachers, hospitals, medicine, medical supplies and machines, building supplies, road building machines, and all those things required to provide individuals with what you think they are just supposed to have because the exist are just lying around for someone to pick up an use?

No idea where you are going with this.

Who is going to build the schools, and hospitals, and doctor's offices, and factories, and who will design and make the machines, discover and produce the medicine and medical machines. and with what and where does it come from? Are all those whose minds, time, energy, and effort are dedicated to producing all the things you think everyone is just suppose to have supposed to do it for nothing. How will they feed and clothe themselves and their families or will society take care of that too?

Not saying you are wrong, but I think it all needs a little more explanation. Sounds a bit Utopian to me.

I posited two extremes. It's not supposed to be a utopia.

I doubt very much that what you describe as a capitalist would be possible without a government directly or indirectly supplying the coercive power necessary to do what you think a capitalist does.

In a fully free system, money provides the power. In ancient Rome those proto-capitalists had their own armies, slaves and security.
Eventually Caesar felt the wrath of the Senate.

[Immanuel Can]

The only problems with Cuba and Venezuela are the international sanctions imposed on them by the US,

I've been to Cuba. I have Cuban friends.

You're smoking dope.

They have stood against draconian sanctions for nearly 60 years. That is a remarkable achievement.

Go and look. Look at what they are now. Go and watch them shoot peaceful protesters crying for "liberte," or beat them to a pulp with baseball bats, with nobody to stop them. Go and see their jails, and meet the people they put in them. Take a look at their infrastructure crumbling from internal government corruption. Go and enjoy their fine island cuisine, even. Or better still, just try to start a business and make a living there now.

Have fun. Welcome to Socialism 101.

[RCSaunders]

Glad you spotted my irony.
Yes, there is neither any such thing as socialism in the same way.
All systems have elements of both things.
A fully capitalist system would be one fat bastard with everything who has eventually bought up everything and outcompeted everyone.
Capitalism has to be mitigated by some socialism such as workers rights, work place protection, free schools, health systems, public projects such as road building, regulations, laws against monopoly etc...

I'll ask you the same thing I asked Scott: "What is a capitalist?"

If a capitalist is someone who buys everything and, "outcompetes everyone else," wouldn't you have to explain how he got all that money to buy everything with (and whom from) and what he did to, "outcompete," everyone with what? If he bought everything, whom did he buy it from, and those he bought it from, did they just throw the money he gave them away, or did he make them rich too? There's a lot missing in your description.

With respect I did not say "capitalist" but "fully capitalist". No such person exists, mostly because the people have placed obstacles in their way, to own everything and most would have to work within a system which mitigates the end game of winner take all.

Do you think schools, teachers, hospitals, medicine, medical supplies and machines, building supplies, road building machines, and all those things required to provide individuals with what you think they are just supposed to have because the exist are just lying around for someone to pick up an use?

No idea where you are going with this.

Who is going to build the schools, and hospitals, and doctor's offices, and factories, and who will design and make the machines, discover and produce the medicine and medical machines. and with what and where does it come from? Are all those whose minds, time, energy, and effort are dedicated to producing all the things you think everyone is just suppose to have supposed to do it for nothing. How will they feed and clothe themselves and their families or will society take care of that too?

Not saying you are wrong, but I think it all needs a little more explanation. Sounds a bit Utopian to me.

I posited two extremes. It's not supposed to be a utopia.

I doubt very much that what you describe as a capitalist would be possible without a government directly or indirectly supplying the coercive power necessary to do what you think a capitalist does.

In a fully free system, money provides the power. In ancient Rome those proto-capitalists had their own armies, slaves and security.
Eventually Caesar felt the wrath of the Senate.

Quibble. Without some agency of force, money's only power is benevolent. Money only represents actual goods and services that are of value to someone. (That's real money, not government fiat money).

The culprit is never money. The culprit is always those who use or threaten the use of force or deception to gain possession of money (or the goods it represents) and use that crookedly gained wealth to hire thugs and buy the means of physical coercion to use against others.

If you really believe money is some kind of evil, its only value is as a medium of exchange for the actual goods and services it represents. If there were no goods and services, money could have no value at all, because there would be nothing to exchange. It's why government printed money is worthless. It represents nothing except, "a promise," but it actually represents nothing of value. It's whole reason for inflation. When real money which represents actual goods and services is all there is, the value of all money is determined by the actual value of all real goods and services available. When real money has to compete with government fiat money for the same actual goods and services, the value of all money is reduced by the percentage of non-goods-backed money in competition with real money. Right?

Never mind!

[Sculptor]

I've been to Cuba. I have Cuban friends.

You're smoking dope.

They have stood against draconian sanctions for nearly 60 years. That is a remarkable achievement.

Go and look. Look at what they are now. Go and watch them shoot peaceful protesters crying for "liberte," or beat them to a pulp with baseball bats, with nobody to stop them. Go and see their jails, and meet the people they put in them. Take a look at their infrastructure crumbling from internal government corruption. Go and enjoy their fine island cuisine, even. Or better still, just try to start a business and make a living there now.

Have fun. Welcome to Socialism 101.

Love Jesus Socialism 101

[Sculptor]

I'll ask you the same thing I asked Scott: "What is a capitalist?"

If a capitalist is someone who buys everything and, "outcompetes everyone else," wouldn't you have to explain how he got all that money to buy everything with (and whom from) and what he did to, "outcompete," everyone with what? If he bought everything, whom did he buy it from, and those he bought it from, did they just throw the money he gave them away, or did he make them rich too? There's a lot missing in your description.

With respect I did not say "capitalist" but "fully capitalist". No such person exists, mostly because the people have placed obstacles in their way, to own everything and most would have to work within a system which mitigates the end game of winner take all.

Do you think schools, teachers, hospitals, medicine, medical supplies and machines, building supplies, road building machines, and all those things required to provide individuals with what you think they are just supposed to have because the exist are just lying around for someone to pick up an use?

No idea where you are going with this.

Who is going to build the schools, and hospitals, and doctor's offices, and factories, and who will design and make the machines, discover and produce the medicine and medical machines. and with what and where does it come from? Are all those whose minds, time, energy, and effort are dedicated to producing all the things you think everyone is just suppose to have supposed to do it for nothing. How will they feed and clothe themselves and their families or will society take care of that too?

Not saying you are wrong, but I think it all needs a little more explanation. Sounds a bit Utopian to me.

I posited two extremes. It's not supposed to be a utopia.

I doubt very much that what you describe as a capitalist would be possible without a government directly or indirectly supplying the coercive power necessary to do what you think a capitalist does.

In a fully free system, money provides the power. In ancient Rome those proto-capitalists had their own armies, slaves and security.
Eventually Caesar felt the wrath of the Senate.

Quibble. Without some agency of force, money's only power is benevolent. Money only represents actual goods and services that are of value to someone. (That's real money, not government fiat money).

The culprit is never money. The culprit is always those who use or threaten the use of force or deception to gain possession of money (or the goods it represents) and use that crookedly gained wealth to hire thugs and buy the means of physical coercion to use against others.

If you really believe money is some kind of evil, its only value is as a medium of exchange for the actual goods and services it represents. If there were no goods and services, money could have no value at all, because there would be nothing to exchange. It's why government printed money is worthless. It represents nothing except, "a promise," but it actually represents nothing of value. It's whole reason for inflation. When real money which represents actual goods and services is all there is, the value of all money is determined by the actual value of all real goods and services available. When real money has to compete with government fiat money for the same actual goods and services, the value of all money is reduced by the percentage of non-goods-backed money in competition with real money. Right?

Never mind!

It's pointless having a discussion if you are going to put words in my mouth - you are having an argument with someone you want me to be and not with me. So enjoy