We're not the ones who invaded Ukraine.Sculptor wrote: ↑Mon Oct 31, 2022 11:43 amRegarless??? Regard this mutha fucka..Gary Childress wrote: ↑Sun Oct 30, 2022 11:35 pmI hope it ends that way. It gets tiring being the "bad guys" all the time in the world, regardless of what we do.
Well illegal invasions and incursions in Iraq, Afghanistan, Libya, Syria, Laos, Cambodia, Vietnam, Grenada, Chili, Cuba, Iran (I could go on) basically make you the bad guys. So suck it up, and stop being such hypocrites.
Ukraine Crisis
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Re: Ukraine Crisis
Re: Ukraine Crisis
What's your point?Gary Childress wrote: ↑Tue Nov 01, 2022 9:31 amWe're not the ones who invaded Ukraine.Sculptor wrote: ↑Mon Oct 31, 2022 11:43 amRegarless??? Regard this mutha fucka..Gary Childress wrote: ↑Sun Oct 30, 2022 11:35 pm
I hope it ends that way. It gets tiring being the "bad guys" all the time in the world, regardless of what we do.
Well illegal invasions and incursions in Iraq, Afghanistan, Libya, Syria, Laos, Cambodia, Vietnam, Grenada, Chili, Cuba, Iran (I could go on) basically make you the bad guys. So suck it up, and stop being such hypocrites.
We are the ones who invaded Iraq x 2, Afghanistan, Grenada, Vietnam, Cuba, Dominican Republic, Korea, Cambodia, Panama - and none of them a real threat to the USA or UK. or with as much provocation or justification.
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Re: Ukraine Crisis
OK. Fair enough. The Biden administration is fucking insane. They could at least try to bring peace to the Ukraine situation but they're more concerned with midterm elections. Our oligarchs are FUCKING INSANE.Sculptor wrote: ↑Tue Nov 01, 2022 9:39 amWhat's your point?Gary Childress wrote: ↑Tue Nov 01, 2022 9:31 amWe're not the ones who invaded Ukraine.Sculptor wrote: ↑Mon Oct 31, 2022 11:43 am
Regarless??? Regard this mutha fucka..
Well illegal invasions and incursions in Iraq, Afghanistan, Libya, Syria, Laos, Cambodia, Vietnam, Grenada, Chili, Cuba, Iran (I could go on) basically make you the bad guys. So suck it up, and stop being such hypocrites.
We are the ones who invaded Iraq x 2, Afghanistan, Grenada, Vietnam, Cuba, Dominican Republic, Korea, Cambodia, Panama - and none of them a real threat to the USA or UK. or with as much provocation or justification.
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Re: Ukraine Crisis
So, in other words, it doesn't concern itself with justice. I'll pass, thanks.wtf wrote: ↑Mon Oct 31, 2022 9:57 pm A realist, in foreign policy terms, is someone who views the world in terms of national interests, rather than ideology. Also known as realpolitik, as practiced by Nixon and Kissinger in the 1970s. "Realpolitik: a system of politics or principles based on practical rather than moral or ideological considerations." -- Wiki
Re: Ukraine Crisis
Not sure it has that much to do with Biden, as such. The political establishment is engineered to make this thing run and run. And in a very real sense it was indeed the US who invaded the Ukraine.Gary Childress wrote: ↑Tue Nov 01, 2022 9:58 amOK. Fair enough. The Biden administration is fucking insane. They could at least try to bring peace to the Ukraine situation but they're more concerned with midterm elections. Our oligarchs are FUCKING INSANE.
For the US, the Ukraine is a comfortable distance. The US has been agitating there for decades and helped the coup. But for the people of the EU the problem is closer to hand. If I were in Germany I'd be worried.
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Re: Ukraine Crisis
I'd rather see a peaceful, diplomatic end to the Ukraine war. Putin has a chance to be a hero and back down. It will make him look like an angel compared to the Biden administration which doesn't give a shit one way or the other. If Putin backs down (citing America's unwillingness to back down), then I guarantee the world will take notice and there will be a seismic shift at the highest levels.Sculptor wrote: ↑Tue Nov 01, 2022 11:12 amNot sure it has that much to do with Biden, as such. The political establishment is engineered to make this thing run and run. And in a very real sense it was indeed the US who invaded the Ukraine.Gary Childress wrote: ↑Tue Nov 01, 2022 9:58 amOK. Fair enough. The Biden administration is fucking insane. They could at least try to bring peace to the Ukraine situation but they're more concerned with midterm elections. Our oligarchs are FUCKING INSANE.
For the US, the Ukraine is a comfortable distance. The US has been agitating there for decades and helped the coup. But for the people of the EU the problem is closer to hand. If I were in Germany I'd be worried.
BLESSED ARE THE PEACEMAKERS
Re: Ukraine Crisis
I could not agree more.Gary Childress wrote: ↑Tue Nov 01, 2022 11:23 amI'd rather see a peaceful, diplomatic end to the Ukraine war. Putin has a chance to be a hero and back down. It will make him look like an angel compared to the Biden administration which doesn't give a shit one way or the other. If Putin backs down (citing America's unwillingness to back down), then I guarantee the world will take notice and there will be a seismic shift at the highest levels.Sculptor wrote: ↑Tue Nov 01, 2022 11:12 amNot sure it has that much to do with Biden, as such. The political establishment is engineered to make this thing run and run. And in a very real sense it was indeed the US who invaded the Ukraine.Gary Childress wrote: ↑Tue Nov 01, 2022 9:58 am
OK. Fair enough. The Biden administration is fucking insane. They could at least try to bring peace to the Ukraine situation but they're more concerned with midterm elections. Our oligarchs are FUCKING INSANE.
For the US, the Ukraine is a comfortable distance. The US has been agitating there for decades and helped the coup. But for the people of the EU the problem is closer to hand. If I were in Germany I'd be worried.
Um. Is there anything doing the blessing though?
BLESSED ARE THE PEACEMAKERS
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Re: Ukraine Crisis
That's a good question.Sculptor wrote: ↑Tue Nov 01, 2022 12:05 pmI could not agree more.Gary Childress wrote: ↑Tue Nov 01, 2022 11:23 amI'd rather see a peaceful, diplomatic end to the Ukraine war. Putin has a chance to be a hero and back down. It will make him look like an angel compared to the Biden administration which doesn't give a shit one way or the other. If Putin backs down (citing America's unwillingness to back down), then I guarantee the world will take notice and there will be a seismic shift at the highest levels.Sculptor wrote: ↑Tue Nov 01, 2022 11:12 am
Not sure it has that much to do with Biden, as such. The political establishment is engineered to make this thing run and run. And in a very real sense it was indeed the US who invaded the Ukraine.
For the US, the Ukraine is a comfortable distance. The US has been agitating there for decades and helped the coup. But for the people of the EU the problem is closer to hand. If I were in Germany I'd be worried.Um. Is there anything doing the blessing though?
BLESSED ARE THE PEACEMAKERS
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Re: Ukraine Crisis
That's a good question. That's what it says in the Bible, though. And I believe I heard that Putin claims to be a Christian. So perhaps that will give him incentive. Maybe he'll be a better Christian than the Bush family.
Um. Is there anything doing the blessing though?
The American empire is on the way down. We'll take our place with the Romans, Ottomans, and British. The world will perhaps learn yet another lesson of how not to do things (which the elite will find yet another workaround some day.)
Re: Ukraine Crisis
Gary Childress wrote: ↑Tue Nov 01, 2022 11:11 am So, in other words, it doesn't concern itself with justice. I'll pass, thanks.
Putting these two quotes of yours together, I'm curious to hear your take on the recent incident in which 30 "Justice Democrats" sent a letter to Biden asking him to consider diplomacy to bring an end to the awful war in Ukraine, only to retract the letter once they got pushback from the usual maniac neocon warmongers.
https://www.npr.org/2022/10/25/11313470 ... draw-biden
Which side are you on here? The side that says, hey, let's consider negotiation to bring this thing to an end? Or the side that says "Hell with diplomacy, we'll fight Russia to the last Ukrainian."
Do you support diplomacy toward the goal of achieving peace? Or are you on board endless war till Ukraine is utterly destroyed, as John Mearsheimer predicted in 2015 that it would be? Or do you think we should continue to press a major nuclear power into a corner from which it has only one possible escape?
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Re: Ukraine Crisis
I think I've been pretty clear that I favor ending the war with diplomacy. Are you now going to tell me that justice dictates we destroy the Russians and therefore diplomacy has nothing to do with justice?wtf wrote: ↑Tue Nov 01, 2022 11:11 pmGary Childress wrote: ↑Tue Nov 01, 2022 11:11 am So, in other words, it doesn't concern itself with justice. I'll pass, thanks.Putting these two quotes of yours together, I'm curious to hear your take on the recent incident in which 30 "Justice Democrats" sent a letter to Biden asking him to consider diplomacy to bring an end to the awful war in Ukraine, only to retract the letter once they got pushback from the usual maniac neocon warmongers.
https://www.npr.org/2022/10/25/11313470 ... draw-biden
Which side are you on here? The side that says, hey, let's consider negotiation to bring this thing to an end? Or the side that says "Hell with diplomacy, we'll fight Russia to the last Ukrainian."
Do you support diplomacy toward the goal of achieving peace? Or are you on board endless war till Ukraine is utterly destroyed, as John Mearsheimer predicted in 2015 that it would be? Or do you think we should continue to press a major nuclear power into a corner from which it has only one possible escape?
Re: Ukraine Crisis
I have not read any of your posts other than the ones directed at me. But if you favor diplomacy, you and I are in agreement. And you would be in agreement with John Mersheimer, whom you disparaged earlier.Gary Childress wrote: ↑Tue Nov 01, 2022 11:55 pm I think I've been pretty clear that I favor ending the war with diplomacy.
My question to you was, what do you think of the so-called "Justice Democrats" who sent a letter to Biden calling for diplomacy, and then retracted the letter within 24 hours of getting attacked by the usual warmongers?Gary Childress wrote: ↑Tue Nov 01, 2022 11:55 pm Are you now going to tell me that justice dictates we destroy the Russians and therefore diplomacy has nothing to do with justice?
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Re: Ukraine Crisis
I would say the "justice Democrats" mentioned above are indeed just for sending such a letter and the warmongers are evil for attacking them. As far as retracting the letter, it's tragic that the "justice Democrats" did not possess the faith, backbone, intelligence or whatever to hold to their original position.wtf wrote: ↑Wed Nov 02, 2022 12:47 amMy question to you was, what do you think of the so-called "Justice Democrats" who sent a letter to Biden calling for diplomacy, and then retracted the letter within 24 hours of getting attacked by the usual warmongers?Gary Childress wrote: ↑Tue Nov 01, 2022 11:55 pm Are you now going to tell me that justice dictates we destroy the Russians and therefore diplomacy has nothing to do with justice?
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Re: Ukraine Crisis
I take it Mersheimer calls "justice" something different from "morality" then?wtf wrote: ↑Wed Nov 02, 2022 12:47 amI have not read any of your posts other than the ones directed at me. But if you favor diplomacy, you and I are in agreement. And you would be in agreement with John Mersheimer, whom you disparaged earlier.Gary Childress wrote: ↑Tue Nov 01, 2022 11:55 pm I think I've been pretty clear that I favor ending the war with diplomacy.
Re: Ukraine Crisis
Then you and I are in agreement on this point. And it upsets me greatly. I'm an old lefty. Old enough to remember when the left stood for peace. This shameful cave-in by the leftmost members of the Democratic party is just the latest reminder that I didn't leave the left; the left left me.Gary Childress wrote: ↑Wed Nov 02, 2022 4:09 am I would say the "justice Democrats" mentioned above are indeed just for sending such a letter and the warmongers are evil for attacking them. As far as retracting the letter, it's tragic that the "justice Democrats" did not possess the faith, backbone, intelligence or whatever to hold to their original position.
Justice was the word you used. Mearsheimer talks about realism. The realist position is to recognize Russia's subjective interests (whether one thinks those positions are justified or not) and to negotiate based on an understanding of those interests.Gary Childress wrote: ↑Wed Nov 02, 2022 4:14 am I take it Mersheimer calls "justice" something different from "morality" then?
If you favor rational negotiation, you would be taking Mearsheimer's position.
When you talk about "justice," what exactly do you mean? There was a peace proposal on the table as long ago as May. Ukraine declined to negotiate, and the US agreed. Nobody on the US or Ukrainian side want rational negotiation. They want war. I think that's a very dangerous policy. I can't figure out which side of this you're on. If you favor negotiation, that's the opposite of the US and Ukraine's current position, and it accords more with Mearsheimer's world view.