Ukraine Crisis

How should society be organised, if at all?

Moderators: AMod, iMod

Gary Childress
Posts: 7966
Joined: Sun Sep 25, 2011 3:08 pm
Location: Retirement Home for foolosophers

Re: Ukraine Crisis

Post by Gary Childress »

Immanuel Can wrote: Sat Feb 04, 2023 5:35 am
Gary Childress wrote: Sat Feb 04, 2023 5:24 am
Immanuel Can wrote: Sat Feb 04, 2023 3:27 am
We can't choose oblivion, Gary. And we cannot choose not to have an afterlife. We can only choose where we do.
I just think that's an extremely myopic and despairing worldview.
It's not "myopic," nor is it "despairing." It's actually extremely empowering. The truth always is. It puts the choices in your hands, and says "Choose wisely." That's very adult.

Here's what nobody gets: a choice with no consequences.

I've advised you before to be very circumspect about how you challenge God. I've done that in your interest. One can ask a fair question, and even a difficult one...and it's all fair. But to be insulting, to misrepresent God's character and actions, and to speak so as to reject Him...well, that has consequences.

Two-year-olds have hissy fits all the time, because they have an extremely limited grasp of consequences. They scream, they cry, they turn red, they lash out, they kick and hold their breath...without any sense of how what they are doing has any impact on others or on their world. But any adult knows there are no consequence-free choices.
Fine. You want the Hebrew Bible to be the true word and deeds of God. Be careful what you wish for. :oops:
Gary Childress
Posts: 7966
Joined: Sun Sep 25, 2011 3:08 pm
Location: Retirement Home for foolosophers

Re: Ukraine Crisis

Post by Gary Childress »

You want dire "consequences" in life. Then you can live out dire consequences. I'm done with kristian fanaticism. Worship what you will, resentful turd.
Belinda
Posts: 8030
Joined: Fri Aug 26, 2016 10:13 am

Re: Ukraine Crisis

Post by Belinda »

Immanuel Can wrote: Fri Feb 03, 2023 11:00 pm
Belinda wrote: Fri Feb 03, 2023 8:19 pm
Immanuel Can wrote: Fri Feb 03, 2023 7:37 pm No, what they do, historically, is rebel against one kind of tyranny so they can impose another kind. That's all. In both cases, it's the common person who suffers.
But you confuse socialism with communism.
There IS no substantive difference. Communism is just Socialism by the most direct means. The ideology is the same, the goals are the same, and the outcomes are always the same...economic collapse and piles of corpses.
That's all -or- nothing thinking, Immanuel. Not all socialist governments are totalitarian.
User avatar
Immanuel Can
Posts: 22140
Joined: Wed Sep 25, 2013 4:42 pm

Re: Ukraine Crisis

Post by Immanuel Can »

Gary Childress wrote: Sat Feb 04, 2023 5:52 am Fine. You want the Hebrew Bible to be the true word and deeds of God.
That's what you don't seem to get, Gary. It's not what you and I "want" that makes things what they are. It's what's real.

That's why you can't wish for "oblivion" and just get it. Reality does not provide for you according to your preferences; it only ever delivers the real.

What is real will be revealed. It always does, because reality unfolds itself through time. You and I can pretend otherwise, but it will not stand, and we will be proved fools if what we believe does not reveal itself to be the truth.

And from both your side and mine, you can see that's absolutely true. No angle, no spin, no lie. That's how it is.
User avatar
Immanuel Can
Posts: 22140
Joined: Wed Sep 25, 2013 4:42 pm

Re: Ukraine Crisis

Post by Immanuel Can »

Belinda wrote: Sat Feb 04, 2023 11:11 am Not all socialist governments are totalitarian.
Name one.

Name one Socialist government that has actually been allowed the control its own ideology demands -- of the economy, the means of production and the lives of its "collectives" -- that has not immediately decayed into totalitarianism.

You can't. There's never been one.

But I can name bunches that have gone that route. And if you think about it, we already have the perfect social experiment to illustrate the point. There are two countries: identical histories, cultures, languages, geography, resources, biology, and so on, but not identitical political systems. One is Socialist, and one is free. They are called "North Korea" and "South Korea."

If you had to live in one, which would it be?
Gary Childress
Posts: 7966
Joined: Sun Sep 25, 2011 3:08 pm
Location: Retirement Home for foolosophers

Re: Ukraine Crisis

Post by Gary Childress »

Immanuel Can wrote: Sat Feb 04, 2023 1:48 pm
Gary Childress wrote: Sat Feb 04, 2023 5:52 am Fine. You want the Hebrew Bible to be the true word and deeds of God.
That's what you don't seem to get, Gary. It's not what you and I "want" that makes things what they are. It's what's real.

That's why you can't wish for "oblivion" and just get it. Reality does not provide for you according to your preferences; it only ever delivers the real.

What is real will be revealed. It always does, because reality unfolds itself through time. You and I can pretend otherwise, but it will not stand, and we will be proved fools if what we believe does not reveal itself to be the truth.

And from both your side and mine, you can see that's absolutely true. No angle, no spin, no lie. That's how it is.
Then chalk me up as a martyr to God's wrath, in that case. I don't worship demented gods. I have principles. You worship Yahweh, that's your choice, doubtless out of fear of retaliation. I don't worship out of fear. I worship out of love. And I can't worship what is unlovable.
User avatar
Immanuel Can
Posts: 22140
Joined: Wed Sep 25, 2013 4:42 pm

Re: Ukraine Crisis

Post by Immanuel Can »

Gary Childress wrote: Sat Feb 04, 2023 3:36 pm Then chalk me up as a martyr to God's wrath, in that case.
To be a "martyr," Gary, one has to be on the right side. Otherwise, one is simply somebody who goes down for a bad cause.
I can't worship what is unlovable.
You can ask all kinds of questions, Gary. God handles honest questions, even very complicated ones, very well. But they need to show some intention toward conversation, and some indication that you have some idea to Whom you are speaking.

What you can't legitimately do is insult and walk off. An accusation is not an invitation to facts; it's an attempt to shut down the conversation. And walking off leaves you exactly where you came in.

If you like where you are, carry on, I guess. If you're as unhappy as you say you are, then maybe one day you'll feel unhappy enough to tire of the self-justification and rudeness, and want to ask a reasonable question, rather that issuing a stream of defiant invective. But that's up to you.

Given your current tone, I'm going to step back. You've taken on more than you're ready to deal with, whether you know it or not.
Gary Childress
Posts: 7966
Joined: Sun Sep 25, 2011 3:08 pm
Location: Retirement Home for foolosophers

Re: Ukraine Crisis

Post by Gary Childress »

Immanuel Can wrote: Sat Feb 04, 2023 3:48 pm
Gary Childress wrote: Sat Feb 04, 2023 3:36 pm Then chalk me up as a martyr to God's wrath, in that case.
To be a "martyr," Gary, one has to be on the right side. Otherwise, one is simply somebody who goes down for a bad cause.
I can't worship what is unlovable.
You can ask all kinds of questions, Gary. God handles honest questions, even very complicated ones, very well. But they need to show some intention toward conversation, and some indication that you have some idea to Whom you are speaking.

What you can't legitimately do is insult and walk off. An accusation is not an invitation to facts; it's an attempt to shut down the conversation. And walking off leaves you exactly where you came in.

If you like where you are, carry on, I guess. If you're as unhappy as you say you are, then maybe one day you'll feel unhappy enough to tire of the self-justification and rudeness, and want to ask a reasonable question, rather that issuing a stream of defiant invective. But that's up to you.

Given your current tone, I'm going to step back. You've taken on more than you're ready to deal with, whether you know it or not.
Speak for yourself. I'm not a Yahweh follower. I have higher standards. Either I will be proved right or I will be proved wrong, that is a certainty. But that's not for you to determine. Your wishful thinking toward my demise (and that's precisely what it is, wishful thinking) is shameful. You're no different from a Muslim who feels outraged because someone questioned Mohammed. So your fantasy is for my demise. I have nothing against you, IC, other than your nasty desire to see me punished. But that's all it is, your desire. Until you realize that, you are no friend of mine.
User avatar
Immanuel Can
Posts: 22140
Joined: Wed Sep 25, 2013 4:42 pm

Re: Ukraine Crisis

Post by Immanuel Can »

Gary Childress wrote: Sat Feb 04, 2023 4:08 pm
Immanuel Can wrote: Sat Feb 04, 2023 3:48 pm
Gary Childress wrote: Sat Feb 04, 2023 3:36 pm Then chalk me up as a martyr to God's wrath, in that case.
To be a "martyr," Gary, one has to be on the right side. Otherwise, one is simply somebody who goes down for a bad cause.
I can't worship what is unlovable.
You can ask all kinds of questions, Gary. God handles honest questions, even very complicated ones, very well. But they need to show some intention toward conversation, and some indication that you have some idea to Whom you are speaking.

What you can't legitimately do is insult and walk off. An accusation is not an invitation to facts; it's an attempt to shut down the conversation. And walking off leaves you exactly where you came in.

If you like where you are, carry on, I guess. If you're as unhappy as you say you are, then maybe one day you'll feel unhappy enough to tire of the self-justification and rudeness, and want to ask a reasonable question, rather that issuing a stream of defiant invective. But that's up to you.

Given your current tone, I'm going to step back. You've taken on more than you're ready to deal with, whether you know it or not.
Either I will be proved right or I will be proved wrong, that is a certainty. But that's not for you to determine.
Quite right. But reality will determine it.
...your fantasy is for my demise...
Quite the contrary. I've always treated you well. And I've always wanted the best for you. But "best" means having the truth squarely presented, whether you wish for it or not.
Gary Childress
Posts: 7966
Joined: Sun Sep 25, 2011 3:08 pm
Location: Retirement Home for foolosophers

Re: Ukraine Crisis

Post by Gary Childress »

Immanuel Can wrote: Sat Feb 04, 2023 4:30 pm
Gary Childress wrote: Sat Feb 04, 2023 4:08 pm
Immanuel Can wrote: Sat Feb 04, 2023 3:48 pm
To be a "martyr," Gary, one has to be on the right side. Otherwise, one is simply somebody who goes down for a bad cause.

You can ask all kinds of questions, Gary. God handles honest questions, even very complicated ones, very well. But they need to show some intention toward conversation, and some indication that you have some idea to Whom you are speaking.

What you can't legitimately do is insult and walk off. An accusation is not an invitation to facts; it's an attempt to shut down the conversation. And walking off leaves you exactly where you came in.

If you like where you are, carry on, I guess. If you're as unhappy as you say you are, then maybe one day you'll feel unhappy enough to tire of the self-justification and rudeness, and want to ask a reasonable question, rather that issuing a stream of defiant invective. But that's up to you.

Given your current tone, I'm going to step back. You've taken on more than you're ready to deal with, whether you know it or not.
Either I will be proved right or I will be proved wrong, that is a certainty. But that's not for you to determine.
Quite right. But reality will determine it.
...your fantasy is for my demise...
Quite the contrary. I've always treated you well. And I've always wanted the best for you. But "best" means having the truth squarely presented, whether you wish for it or not.
Then you won't mind if my newly invigorated distaste for Yahweh pans out well. I should ask you this, what is in it for you if I am punished by Yahweh? That seems to be your present faith (in the absence of evidence that's all it is, faith), that I will be punished because I've spoken ill of a God who is ill-conceived to begin with. Do you yearn to be punished too or has this God promised you something that is lucrative to you? Shed this false God, IC. He's not worth it.
User avatar
Immanuel Can
Posts: 22140
Joined: Wed Sep 25, 2013 4:42 pm

Re: Ukraine Crisis

Post by Immanuel Can »

Gary Childress wrote: Sat Feb 04, 2023 4:38 pm
Immanuel Can wrote: Sat Feb 04, 2023 4:30 pm
Gary Childress wrote: Sat Feb 04, 2023 4:08 pm
Either I will be proved right or I will be proved wrong, that is a certainty. But that's not for you to determine.
Quite right. But reality will determine it.
...your fantasy is for my demise...
Quite the contrary. I've always treated you well. And I've always wanted the best for you. But "best" means having the truth squarely presented, whether you wish for it or not.
Then you won't mind if my newly invigorated distaste for Yahweh pans out well.
Of course I would be unhappy if you should end up making yourself an enemy of God. I would not choose that for you.
I should ask you this, what is in it for you if I am punished by Yahweh?
That's easy...nothing. It's not about me.

Let's talk common sense here, Gary. Let your self-interest be your guide. What do you get for insulting God? The best you can hope for, according to your own lights, is "oblivion." The worst is an eternity without God. What are you winning here?

If your strategy doesn't offer you a win, why persist?
Belinda
Posts: 8030
Joined: Fri Aug 26, 2016 10:13 am

Re: Ukraine Crisis

Post by Belinda »

Immanuel Can wrote: Sat Feb 04, 2023 1:53 pm
Belinda wrote: Sat Feb 04, 2023 11:11 am Not all socialist governments are totalitarian.
Name one.

Name one Socialist government that has actually been allowed the control its own ideology demands -- of the economy, the means of production and the lives of its "collectives" -- that has not immediately decayed into totalitarianism.

You can't. There's never been one.

But I can name bunches that have gone that route. And if you think about it, we already have the perfect social experiment to illustrate the point. There are two countries: identical histories, cultures, languages, geography, resources, biology, and so on, but not identitical political systems. One is Socialist, and one is free. They are called "North Korea" and "South Korea."

If you had to live in one, which would it be?

The British labour party was founded in 1900, having grown out of the trade union movement and socialist parties of the 19th century. It overtook the Liberal Party to become the main opposition to the Conservative Party in the early 1920s, forming two minority governments under Ramsay MacDonald in the 1920s and early 1930s.

Domestic socialist initiatives follow the relative strength of labour compared with that of owners. Given that the market for the product is healthy , labourers are in demand and can organise to force owners to accede to what the labourers want.
Gary Childress
Posts: 7966
Joined: Sun Sep 25, 2011 3:08 pm
Location: Retirement Home for foolosophers

Re: Ukraine Crisis

Post by Gary Childress »

Immanuel Can wrote: Sat Feb 04, 2023 4:50 pm Let's talk common sense here, Gary. Let your self-interest be your guide. What do you get for insulting God?
I'm not insulting God. Only you think I'm insulting God because you subscribe to a pretty foul God. I don't. I think God is good. We don't subscribe to the same God, IC. Haven't you figured that out yet?
User avatar
Immanuel Can
Posts: 22140
Joined: Wed Sep 25, 2013 4:42 pm

Re: Ukraine Crisis

Post by Immanuel Can »

Belinda wrote: Sat Feb 04, 2023 4:55 pm
Immanuel Can wrote: Sat Feb 04, 2023 1:53 pm
Belinda wrote: Sat Feb 04, 2023 11:11 am Not all socialist governments are totalitarian.
Name one.

Name one Socialist government that has actually been allowed the control its own ideology demands -- of the economy, the means of production and the lives of its "collectives" -- that has not immediately decayed into totalitarianism.

You can't. There's never been one.

But I can name bunches that have gone that route. And if you think about it, we already have the perfect social experiment to illustrate the point. There are two countries: identical histories, cultures, languages, geography, resources, biology, and so on, but not identitical political systems. One is Socialist, and one is free. They are called "North Korea" and "South Korea."

If you had to live in one, which would it be?

The British labour party...
Yeah, I know about them.

"Socialish," is the most you can say about the BLP.

They've never had control of the means of production or the ability to remodel the economic system. They're a bigger-government, union-loving, welfare-advocacy party within what even they would characterize as a "capitalist" system...one they'd prefer to see overthrown, but cannot.

This is what you need to know about Socialist propaganda techniques: they're puppies when they're not in ultimate control, and ravening wolves when they get control.

When they're not in power, Socialists speak passionately as if they are advocating for "the common man," "the workers," "the marginalized and oppressed," or whatever. When they have actual control of an economic system, they show they never cared about that at all. They only cared about getting their elitist ideological mass-management project launched. And in aid of that goal, they immediately destroy all the freedoms and rights of the common man or woman, and institute tyranny. They've done it every time. 100% of the time.
Gary Childress
Posts: 7966
Joined: Sun Sep 25, 2011 3:08 pm
Location: Retirement Home for foolosophers

Re: Ukraine Crisis

Post by Gary Childress »

Belinda wrote: Sat Feb 04, 2023 4:55 pm
Immanuel Can wrote: Sat Feb 04, 2023 1:53 pm
Belinda wrote: Sat Feb 04, 2023 11:11 am Not all socialist governments are totalitarian.
Name one.

Name one Socialist government that has actually been allowed the control its own ideology demands -- of the economy, the means of production and the lives of its "collectives" -- that has not immediately decayed into totalitarianism.

You can't. There's never been one.

But I can name bunches that have gone that route. And if you think about it, we already have the perfect social experiment to illustrate the point. There are two countries: identical histories, cultures, languages, geography, resources, biology, and so on, but not identitical political systems. One is Socialist, and one is free. They are called "North Korea" and "South Korea."

If you had to live in one, which would it be?

The British labour party was founded in 1900, having grown out of the trade union movement and socialist parties of the 19th century. It overtook the Liberal Party to become the main opposition to the Conservative Party in the early 1920s, forming two minority governments under Ramsay MacDonald in the 1920s and early 1930s.

Domestic socialist initiatives follow the relative strength of labour compared with that of owners. Given that the market for the product is healthy , labourers are in demand and can organise to force owners to accede to what the labourers want.
Owners having to share the wealth with workers??? Poor IC. He'll need to pray to his Yahweh for a flood or something to consume all those evil workers. Don't they know their place?
Post Reply