Ukraine Crisis

[Gary Childress]

I think he will end up in control of East Ukraine, but the show is over for him. It's doubtful if he survives this politically.

I hope it ends that way. It gets tiring being the "bad guys" all the time in the world, regardless of what we do.

Regarless??? Regard this mutha fucka..
Well illegal invasions and incursions in Iraq, Afghanistan, Libya, Syria, Laos, Cambodia, Vietnam, Grenada, Chili, Cuba, Iran (I could go on) basically make you the bad guys. So suck it up, and stop being such hypocrites.

We're not the ones who invaded Ukraine.

[Sculptor]

I hope it ends that way. It gets tiring being the "bad guys" all the time in the world, regardless of what we do.

Regarless??? Regard this mutha fucka..
Well illegal invasions and incursions in Iraq, Afghanistan, Libya, Syria, Laos, Cambodia, Vietnam, Grenada, Chili, Cuba, Iran (I could go on) basically make you the bad guys. So suck it up, and stop being such hypocrites.

We're not the ones who invaded Ukraine.

What's your point?
We are the ones who invaded Iraq x 2, Afghanistan, Grenada, Vietnam, Cuba, Dominican Republic, Korea, Cambodia, Panama - and none of them a real threat to the USA or UK. or with as much provocation or justification.

[Gary Childress]

Regarless??? Regard this mutha fucka..
Well illegal invasions and incursions in Iraq, Afghanistan, Libya, Syria, Laos, Cambodia, Vietnam, Grenada, Chili, Cuba, Iran (I could go on) basically make you the bad guys. So suck it up, and stop being such hypocrites.

We're not the ones who invaded Ukraine.

What's your point?
We are the ones who invaded Iraq x 2, Afghanistan, Grenada, Vietnam, Cuba, Dominican Republic, Korea, Cambodia, Panama - and none of them a real threat to the USA or UK. or with as much provocation or justification.

OK. Fair enough. The Biden administration is fucking insane. They could at least try to bring peace to the Ukraine situation but they're more concerned with midterm elections. Our oligarchs are FUCKING INSANE.

[Gary Childress]

A realist, in foreign policy terms, is someone who views the world in terms of national interests, rather than ideology. Also known as realpolitik, as practiced by Nixon and Kissinger in the 1970s. "Realpolitik: a system of politics or principles based on practical rather than moral or ideological considerations." -- Wiki

So, in other words, it doesn't concern itself with justice. I'll pass, thanks.

[Sculptor]

We're not the ones who invaded Ukraine.

What's your point?
We are the ones who invaded Iraq x 2, Afghanistan, Grenada, Vietnam, Cuba, Dominican Republic, Korea, Cambodia, Panama - and none of them a real threat to the USA or UK. or with as much provocation or justification.

OK. Fair enough. The Biden administration is fucking insane. They could at least try to bring peace to the Ukraine situation but they're more concerned with midterm elections. Our oligarchs are FUCKING INSANE.

Not sure it has that much to do with Biden, as such. The political establishment is engineered to make this thing run and run. And in a very real sense it was indeed the US who invaded the Ukraine.
For the US, the Ukraine is a comfortable distance. The US has been agitating there for decades and helped the coup. But for the people of the EU the problem is closer to hand. If I were in Germany I'd be worried.

[Gary Childress]

What's your point?
We are the ones who invaded Iraq x 2, Afghanistan, Grenada, Vietnam, Cuba, Dominican Republic, Korea, Cambodia, Panama - and none of them a real threat to the USA or UK. or with as much provocation or justification.

OK. Fair enough. The Biden administration is fucking insane. They could at least try to bring peace to the Ukraine situation but they're more concerned with midterm elections. Our oligarchs are FUCKING INSANE.

Not sure it has that much to do with Biden, as such. The political establishment is engineered to make this thing run and run. And in a very real sense it was indeed the US who invaded the Ukraine.
For the US, the Ukraine is a comfortable distance. The US has been agitating there for decades and helped the coup. But for the people of the EU the problem is closer to hand. If I were in Germany I'd be worried.

I'd rather see a peaceful, diplomatic end to the Ukraine war. Putin has a chance to be a hero and back down. It will make him look like an angel compared to the Biden administration which doesn't give a shit one way or the other. If Putin backs down (citing America's unwillingness to back down), then I guarantee the world will take notice and there will be a seismic shift at the highest levels.

BLESSED ARE THE PEACEMAKERS

[Sculptor]

OK. Fair enough. The Biden administration is fucking insane. They could at least try to bring peace to the Ukraine situation but they're more concerned with midterm elections. Our oligarchs are FUCKING INSANE.

Not sure it has that much to do with Biden, as such. The political establishment is engineered to make this thing run and run. And in a very real sense it was indeed the US who invaded the Ukraine.
For the US, the Ukraine is a comfortable distance. The US has been agitating there for decades and helped the coup. But for the people of the EU the problem is closer to hand. If I were in Germany I'd be worried.

I'd rather see a peaceful, diplomatic end to the Ukraine war. Putin has a chance to be a hero and back down. It will make him look like an angel compared to the Biden administration which doesn't give a shit one way or the other. If Putin backs down (citing America's unwillingness to back down), then I guarantee the world will take notice and there will be a seismic shift at the highest levels.

I could not agree more.

BLESSED ARE THE PEACEMAKERS

Um. Is there anything doing the blessing though?

[Gary Childress]

Not sure it has that much to do with Biden, as such. The political establishment is engineered to make this thing run and run. And in a very real sense it was indeed the US who invaded the Ukraine.
For the US, the Ukraine is a comfortable distance. The US has been agitating there for decades and helped the coup. But for the people of the EU the problem is closer to hand. If I were in Germany I'd be worried.

I'd rather see a peaceful, diplomatic end to the Ukraine war. Putin has a chance to be a hero and back down. It will make him look like an angel compared to the Biden administration which doesn't give a shit one way or the other. If Putin backs down (citing America's unwillingness to back down), then I guarantee the world will take notice and there will be a seismic shift at the highest levels.

I could not agree more.

BLESSED ARE THE PEACEMAKERS

Um. Is there anything doing the blessing though?

That's a good question.

[Gary Childress]

Um. Is there anything doing the blessing though?

That's a good question. That's what it says in the Bible, though. And I believe I heard that Putin claims to be a Christian. So perhaps that will give him incentive. Maybe he'll be a better Christian than the Bush family.

The American empire is on the way down. We'll take our place with the Romans, Ottomans, and British. The world will perhaps learn yet another lesson of how not to do things (which the elite will find yet another workaround some day.)

[wtf]

So, in other words, it doesn't concern itself with justice. I'll pass, thanks.

BLESSED ARE THE PEACEMAKERS

Putting these two quotes of yours together, I'm curious to hear your take on the recent incident in which 30 "Justice Democrats" sent a letter to Biden asking him to consider diplomacy to bring an end to the awful war in Ukraine, only to retract the letter once they got pushback from the usual maniac neocon warmongers.

https://www.npr.org/2022/10/25/11313470 ... draw-biden

Which side are you on here? The side that says, hey, let's consider negotiation to bring this thing to an end? Or the side that says "Hell with diplomacy, we'll fight Russia to the last Ukrainian."

Do you support diplomacy toward the goal of achieving peace? Or are you on board endless war till Ukraine is utterly destroyed, as John Mearsheimer predicted in 2015 that it would be? Or do you think we should continue to press a major nuclear power into a corner from which it has only one possible escape?

[Gary Childress]

So, in other words, it doesn't concern itself with justice. I'll pass, thanks.

BLESSED ARE THE PEACEMAKERS

Putting these two quotes of yours together, I'm curious to hear your take on the recent incident in which 30 "Justice Democrats" sent a letter to Biden asking him to consider diplomacy to bring an end to the awful war in Ukraine, only to retract the letter once they got pushback from the usual maniac neocon warmongers.

https://www.npr.org/2022/10/25/11313470 ... draw-biden

Which side are you on here? The side that says, hey, let's consider negotiation to bring this thing to an end? Or the side that says "Hell with diplomacy, we'll fight Russia to the last Ukrainian."

Do you support diplomacy toward the goal of achieving peace? Or are you on board endless war till Ukraine is utterly destroyed, as John Mearsheimer predicted in 2015 that it would be? Or do you think we should continue to press a major nuclear power into a corner from which it has only one possible escape?

I think I've been pretty clear that I favor ending the war with diplomacy. Are you now going to tell me that justice dictates we destroy the Russians and therefore diplomacy has nothing to do with justice?

[wtf]

I think I've been pretty clear that I favor ending the war with diplomacy.

I have not read any of your posts other than the ones directed at me. But if you favor diplomacy, you and I are in agreement. And you would be in agreement with John Mersheimer, whom you disparaged earlier.

Are you now going to tell me that justice dictates we destroy the Russians and therefore diplomacy has nothing to do with justice?

My question to you was, what do you think of the so-called "Justice Democrats" who sent a letter to Biden calling for diplomacy, and then retracted the letter within 24 hours of getting attacked by the usual warmongers?

[Gary Childress]

Are you now going to tell me that justice dictates we destroy the Russians and therefore diplomacy has nothing to do with justice?

My question to you was, what do you think of the so-called "Justice Democrats" who sent a letter to Biden calling for diplomacy, and then retracted the letter within 24 hours of getting attacked by the usual warmongers?

I would say the "justice Democrats" mentioned above are indeed just for sending such a letter and the warmongers are evil for attacking them. As far as retracting the letter, it's tragic that the "justice Democrats" did not possess the faith, backbone, intelligence or whatever to hold to their original position.

[Gary Childress]

I think I've been pretty clear that I favor ending the war with diplomacy.

I have not read any of your posts other than the ones directed at me. But if you favor diplomacy, you and I are in agreement. And you would be in agreement with John Mersheimer, whom you disparaged earlier.

I take it Mersheimer calls "justice" something different from "morality" then?

[wtf]

I would say the "justice Democrats" mentioned above are indeed just for sending such a letter and the warmongers are evil for attacking them. As far as retracting the letter, it's tragic that the "justice Democrats" did not possess the faith, backbone, intelligence or whatever to hold to their original position.

Then you and I are in agreement on this point. And it upsets me greatly. I'm an old lefty. Old enough to remember when the left stood for peace. This shameful cave-in by the leftmost members of the Democratic party is just the latest reminder that I didn't leave the left; the left left me.

I take it Mersheimer calls "justice" something different from "morality" then?

Justice was the word you used. Mearsheimer talks about realism. The realist position is to recognize Russia's subjective interests (whether one thinks those positions are justified or not) and to negotiate based on an understanding of those interests.

If you favor rational negotiation, you would be taking Mearsheimer's position.

When you talk about "justice," what exactly do you mean? There was a peace proposal on the table as long ago as May. Ukraine declined to negotiate, and the US agreed. Nobody on the US or Ukrainian side want rational negotiation. They want war. I think that's a very dangerous policy. I can't figure out which side of this you're on. If you favor negotiation, that's the opposite of the US and Ukraine's current position, and it accords more with Mearsheimer's world view.