Ukraine Crisis

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Dontaskme
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Re: Ukraine Crisis

Post by Dontaskme »

iambiguous wrote: Tue Apr 26, 2022 7:01 pm
Dontaskme wrote: Tue Apr 26, 2022 4:47 pm
iambiguous wrote: Tue Apr 26, 2022 4:32 pm
Indeed, the rest of us may well be along for the ride if it all goes terribly bad.
I have a terribly bad feeling it will. I hope I'm wrong, but my gut is in conflict.
Not sure myself.

But if it is in conflict, I suggest that our reaction to that will be profoundly subjective.
I'm personally for human extinction ...but even that is just wishful thinking much like the idea of a loving caring God who has a wonderful plan for his creation...but extinction seems to be where things are heading anyway. As for the nuclear bomb, it's almost as if it's an unconscious desire to destroy ourselves, and the A bomb is almost like a human substitute for the asteroid that killed off the dinosaurs. Nature never changes. It's an absolute A hole of a battle zone, always was, is and will be. The proof is in the pudding.

Even if humans extincted...there's no way of knowing if that kind of sentient creature would just rise again, like just pop into existence at some other time in eternity where the whole process starts all over again...this rinse and repeat freak show maybe an indefinite event...which is scary and at the same time totally the most hilarious scenario one could ever imagine..and is why the Buddha laughed out loud, as if there was an alternative which would mean crying rivers of grief and despair for eternity...so might as well laugh till you die...and then laugh in the face of the moment of death, silently saying to yourself...see you on the other side, which of course is right back where we are now, the only place we could ever know for certain...Urgh! - Sigh! what, not again, please.
Belinda
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Re: Ukraine Crisis

Post by Belinda »

Dontaskme wrote: Wed Apr 27, 2022 8:48 am
iambiguous wrote: Tue Apr 26, 2022 7:01 pm
Dontaskme wrote: Tue Apr 26, 2022 4:47 pm

I have a terribly bad feeling it will. I hope I'm wrong, but my gut is in conflict.
Not sure myself.

But if it is in conflict, I suggest that our reaction to that will be profoundly subjective.
I'm personally for human extinction ...but even that is just wishful thinking much like the idea of a loving caring God who has a wonderful plan for his creation...but extinction seems to be where things are heading anyway. As for the nuclear bomb, it's almost as if it's an unconscious desire to destroy ourselves, and the A bomb is almost like a human substitute for the asteroid that killed off the dinosaurs. Nature never changes. It's an absolute A hole of a battle zone, always was, is and will be. The proof is in the pudding.

Even if humans extincted...there's no way of knowing if that kind of sentient creature would just rise again, like just pop into existence at some other time in eternity where the whole process starts all over again...this rinse and repeat freak show maybe an indefinite event...which is scary and at the same time totally the most hilarious scenario one could ever imagine..and is why the Buddha laughed out loud, as if there was an alternative which would mean crying rivers of grief and despair for eternity...so might as well laugh till you die...and then laugh in the face of the moment of death, silently saying to yourself...see you on the other side, which of course is right back where we are now, the only place we could ever know for certain...Urgh! - Sigh! what, not again, please.
But humans can't ever be wiped out, because existence does not depend on memory.

When no humans are left alive and no humans or dogs exist to remember humans then there will still exist absolute human experience which is not bound to past and future times.
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Dontaskme
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Re: Ukraine Crisis

Post by Dontaskme »

Belinda wrote: Wed Apr 27, 2022 10:16 am
But humans can't ever be wiped out, because existence does not depend on memory.

When no humans are left alive and no humans or dogs exist to remember humans then there will still exist absolute human experience which is not bound to past and future times.
Well, I have absolutely no idea what you've just said or what you've said actually means.

.
Belinda
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Re: Ukraine Crisis

Post by Belinda »

Dontaskme wrote: Wed Apr 27, 2022 10:56 am
Belinda wrote: Wed Apr 27, 2022 10:16 am
But humans can't ever be wiped out, because existence does not depend on memory.

When no humans are left alive and no humans or dogs exist to remember humans then there will still exist absolute human experience which is not bound to past and future times.
Well, I have absolutely no idea what you've just said or what you've said actually means.

.
There is a problem about how to describe the Absolute, because language is attached to the temporal and transient. There are other people who are better than I at describing the Absolute.
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iambiguous
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Re: Ukraine Crisis

Post by iambiguous »

Thomas L. Friedman at the NYT

'Putin...is not just obsessed with holding his own power and ready to violate any norm to retain it. He is also obsessed with the loss of Russian power, dignity and respect — which resulted from the fall of the Soviet Union — and the need to restore it.

His reckless decision to invade Ukraine was fueled by a desire to halt NATO’s and the European Union’s expansion closer to Russia’s borders.'


This is the part where things become more ambiguous. While many in the West do not share Putin's ambitions here, there are still those who acknowledge that...

"Ukraine was the most populous and industrialised republic after the Russian Soviet Republic, until regaining its independence in 1991, following the dissolution of the Soviet Union." wiki

"Ukraine had been incorporated into Tsardom of Russia in 1667" wiki

Also, that Putin is certainly entitled to be concerned about any attempt by the West to bring Ukraine into NATO.

Then this part...

'But he wanted to do it in a way that would show everyone how much the West is weak and divided and how much Ukraine is not a real country, by overrunning the place in a week. Class was in session and Putin was going to teach the West a lesson.

But Putin’s lesson plan has gone badly awry. Rather than teaching the West — and all of those Ukrainians who want to be part of the West — a lesson and erasing Russia’s humiliations, Putin has been further humiliated.'


Even this is open to debate. Who really knows what motivated Putin to invade? Who really knows what his ultimate aim is?

And then of course this part...

'We need to tread carefully here — there is nothing more dangerous than a twice-humiliated leader with nuclear weapons.

Friedman calls Putin a man with "no soul". Whatever that means. But a soulless sort who can with a push of button put an end to a world that those like Friedman have certainly flourished in.

Putin pisses him off. But not enough for Friedman to actually advocate regime change in Russia. He'll let him take Ukraine if it means avoiding a nuclear war.
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RCSaunders
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Re: Ukraine Crisis

Post by RCSaunders »

Belinda wrote: Wed Apr 27, 2022 10:16 am When no humans are left alive and no humans or dogs exist to remember humans then there will still exist absolute human experience which is not bound to past and future times.
---the White Queen said. "Of course it exits. It exists nowhere, at no time, in no possible way, and is just as sensible as that," she continued.

Time to put Alice away, Belinda.
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Re: Ukraine Crisis

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iambiguous wrote: Wed Apr 27, 2022 5:33 pm Thomas L. Friedman at the NYT

'Putin...is not just obsessed with holding his own power and ready to violate any norm to retain it. He is also obsessed with the loss of Russian power, dignity and respect — which resulted from the fall of the Soviet Union — and the need to restore it.

His reckless decision to invade Ukraine was fueled by a desire to halt NATO’s and the European Union’s expansion closer to Russia’s borders.'


This is the part where things become more ambiguous. While many in the West do not share Putin's ambitions here, there are still those who acknowledge that...

"Ukraine was the most populous and industrialised republic after the Russian Soviet Republic, until regaining its independence in 1991, following the dissolution of the Soviet Union." wiki

"Ukraine had been incorporated into Tsardom of Russia in 1667" wiki

Also, that Putin is certainly entitled to be concerned about any attempt by the West to bring Ukraine into NATO.

Then this part...

'But he wanted to do it in a way that would show everyone how much the West is weak and divided and how much Ukraine is not a real country, by overrunning the place in a week. Class was in session and Putin was going to teach the West a lesson.

But Putin’s lesson plan has gone badly awry. Rather than teaching the West — and all of those Ukrainians who want to be part of the West — a lesson and erasing Russia’s humiliations, Putin has been further humiliated.'


Even this is open to debate. Who really knows what motivated Putin to invade? Who really knows what his ultimate aim is?

And then of course this part...

'We need to tread carefully here — there is nothing more dangerous than a twice-humiliated leader with nuclear weapons.

Friedman calls Putin a man with "no soul". Whatever that means. But a soulless sort who can with a push of button put an end to a world that those like Friedman have certainly flourished in.

Putin pisses him off. But not enough for Friedman to actually advocate regime change in Russia. He'll let him take Ukraine if it means avoiding a nuclear war.
The propaganda gets thicker and more furious by the hour.
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iambiguous
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Re: Ukraine Crisis

Post by iambiguous »

David Sanger NYT

'Fears are mounting that the war in Ukraine will spill across its borders.

'...And with increasing frequency, the Russians are reminding the world of the size and power of their nuclear arsenal, an unsubtle warning that if President Vladimir V. Putin’s conventional forces face any more humiliating losses, he has other options. American and European officials say they see no evidence the Russians are mobilizing their battlefield nuclear forces, but behind the scenes, the officials are already gaming out how they might react to a Russian nuclear test, or demonstration explosion, over the Black Sea or on Ukrainian territory.

“Nobody wants to see this war escalate any more than it already has,” John Kirby, the Pentagon spokesman, said on Wednesday when asked about Russia’s nuclear threats. “Certainly nobody wants to see, or nobody should want to see, it escalate into the nuclear realm.”'


Is Putin a "madman" here, with a very real propensity to take this conflict "all the way"?

And what about Biden? Mad he may not be but is he altogether there from the neck up?

How can it not be unnerving knowing that these two guys are ones who can launch us into a nuclear Armageddon.

Then the part where the only thing scarier than Russia under Putin may well be a Russia that starts to crumble altogether.
popeye1945
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Re: Ukraine Crisis

Post by popeye1945 »

The Americans manipulating NATO as a means of aggression has put the entire world in danger of extinction. FUCK AMERICAN APPLE PIE, THE APPLES/ THE MILITARY INDUSTRIAL COMPLEX! Business is Business!!
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Dontaskme
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Re: Ukraine Crisis

Post by Dontaskme »

popeye1945 wrote: Thu Apr 28, 2022 7:06 am The Americans manipulating NATO as a means of aggression has put the entire world in danger of extinction. FUCK AMERICAN APPLE PIE, THE APPLES/ THE MILITARY INDUSTRIAL COMPLEX! Business is Business!!
HAHA...oh the irony...I'd love to watch the red button pushers make an apple pie from scratch...because that's basically what they are setting themselves up for.

Carl Sagan says that if you wish to make an apple pie from scratch, you must first invent the universe.

American Pie and Patriotism
The (above mentioned) article The Boston Daily Globe published during World War I played a significant role in establishing apple pie as a symbol for patriotism. After 1918, people started associating apple pie with the freedom and prosperity they enjoyed as Americans.
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Dontaskme
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Re: Ukraine Crisis

Post by Dontaskme »

iambiguous wrote: Thu Apr 28, 2022 2:50 am
Is Putin a "madman" here, with a very real propensity to take this conflict "all the way"?

There is one thing for certain once the first domino is pushed... we all know what chain reactions mean.

We are now living in a time where uncertainty is our only certainty, as to where all this will end..that end will be very very very unclear....
Belinda
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Re: Ukraine Crisis

Post by Belinda »

RCSaunders wrote: Wed Apr 27, 2022 9:29 pm
Belinda wrote: Wed Apr 27, 2022 10:16 am When no humans are left alive and no humans or dogs exist to remember humans then there will still exist absolute human experience which is not bound to past and future times.
---the White Queen said. "Of course it exits. It exists nowhere, at no time, in no possible way, and is just as sensible as that," she continued.

Time to put Alice away, Belinda.
The Absolute is not a where, a when, or a finite event. Lewis Carroll was a very clever man and if he decided to present the White Queen as a naive realist he had his reasons.
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iambiguous
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Re: Ukraine Crisis

Post by iambiguous »

From the NYT:

West’s Resolve to Block Russia Grows Amid Fears of a Protracted War

'Britain said on Friday it would deploy 8,000 soldiers to Europe to join tens of thousands of troops from NATO countries in exercises meant to deter further Russian aggression. The announcement came a day after President Biden asked Congress to authorize $33 billion more in aid for Ukraine.'

And...

'Even as the Kremlin stepped up warnings that it would respond swiftly and harshly to Western interference with its war in Ukraine, the United States and its allies deepened their commitment this week to supporting Ukraine’s ability not only to defend itself but to drive Russia from its territory.'

How is this not bringing us closer and closer to a possible nuclear war? It's not a "protracted war" that floats ominously above us here. Instead, it's that "Sword of Damocles" hovering ever so perilously over our actual existence itself.

We can only hope that Biden and the European leaders are better informed about Putin's intentions than we are. That they actually know what they are doing...and grasp just how far they can go with him.
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Sculptor
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Re: Ukraine Crisis

Post by Sculptor »

I was out and about driving today. On radio 3 they have managed to dig up yet another Ukrainian composer that no one has previous heard of, and on Radio 4 a poetic tract about freedom from a country bordering Ukraine. I was forced to select Classics FM.
I reflect that Radio 3 particularly (I have them on my clock radio each morn), have been miraculously finding Ukrainian musicians, and composers recently.
This sort of passive propaganda is no less effective than the shit that the Russians are getting.
This is not going to end well.

I reflect that during the first Gulf War the BBC banned John Lennon's "Imagine" and The Beates "Give Peace a Chance".

I when the napalm was failing on Vietnamese children I do not remember a sudden interest in SE Asian Music, nor for any of the dodgy incursions the West have perpetrated.

I have a low tolerance for hypocrisy.

I would not mind but what has happened to broadcasts of Dmitri Hvorostovsky, Borodin, Nikolai Rimsky-Korsakov, Mussorgsky or Tchaikovsky?
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iambiguous
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Re: Ukraine Crisis

Post by iambiguous »

From the NYT:

'In a sign of the United States’ deepening commitment to Ukraine, Speaker Nancy Pelosi became the most senior American official to visit Kyiv, announcing on Sunday that she had met with President Volodymyr Zelensky and had pledged “to help the Ukrainian people as they defend democracy for their nation and for the world.”

'The visit on Saturday by Ms. Pelosi and a few fellow Democratic lawmakers was kept secret until they returned to Poland, where they held a news conference on Sunday morning and vowed to back Ukraine “until victory is won.”'


What, even if that means the advent of a nuclear war?

But let's be practical about that. Suppose there is a nuclear war. Isn't it a fact that in the event of it those like Biden and Pelosi [and their families] will be whisked away to some underground bunker somewhere? Meanwhile the likes of you and I are vaporized?

It's easy to talk tough when there are contingency plans in place to take you and your loved ones away from the consequences of an all-out nuclear exchange.

That's why I'm sticking with giving Putin what he wants if what he wants is not anywhere near in the vicinity of an Adolph Hitler.

Historically, the whole Russia/Soviet Union/Ukraine narrative is bursting at the seams with conflicting interpretations.

It's the possibility of nuclear war that is by far the biggest threat to most of us. So, realpolitik by all means please.
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