Ukraine Crisis

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MagsJ
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Re: Ukraine Crisis

Post by MagsJ »

Gary Childress wrote: Mon Sep 05, 2022 2:16 am Oh. Sorry, I guess I got that wrong. Go Putin! Let's hope his "denazification" works--razing cities in the name of peace and goodness.
Yes you did get it wrong.. because what I said, does not imply I was leaning towards what you just said.
Gary Childress
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Re: Ukraine Crisis

Post by Gary Childress »

MagsJ wrote: Mon Sep 05, 2022 11:45 am
Gary Childress wrote: Mon Sep 05, 2022 2:16 am Oh. Sorry, I guess I got that wrong. Go Putin! Let's hope his "denazification" works--razing cities in the name of peace and goodness.
Yes you did get it wrong.. because what I said, does not imply I was leaning towards what you just said.
Who is to say which country is innocent in all of this.. so a resolution, needed.

I’ve read of horrors.. on both sides, so both sides need to rectify their problems, imo.
Your statement above seems to contradict your reply. But perhaps you just need to word things better, then.
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MagsJ
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Re: Ukraine Crisis

Post by MagsJ »

Gary Childress wrote: Mon Sep 05, 2022 1:45 pm
Who is to say which country is innocent in all of this.. so a resolution, needed.

I’ve read of horrors.. on both sides, so both sides need to rectify their problems, imo.
Your statement above seems to contradict your reply. But perhaps you just need to word things better, then.
Ahhh.. that doesn’t automatically lead to me thinking that Putin is the good guy, otherwise I would have stated that, if I did.
Gary Childress
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Re: Ukraine Crisis

Post by Gary Childress »

MagsJ wrote: Mon Sep 05, 2022 2:05 pm
Gary Childress wrote: Mon Sep 05, 2022 1:45 pm
Who is to say which country is innocent in all of this.. so a resolution, needed.

I’ve read of horrors.. on both sides, so both sides need to rectify their problems, imo.
Your statement above seems to contradict your reply. But perhaps you just need to word things better, then.
Ahhh.. that doesn’t automatically lead to me thinking that Putin is the good guy, otherwise I would have stated that, if I did.
When you said, "which country is innocent in all this" it sounded to me like you were putting responsibility for the current war up in the air between Ukraine and Russia. It seems pretty clear to me that Putin is responsible for current hostilities. This is his war that he alone can do the right thing and call off or continue to do evil and prosecute the war. Is it not?
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iambiguous
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Re: Ukraine Crisis

Post by iambiguous »

https://www.nytimes.com/2022/09/12/worl ... e-war.html

Ivan Nechepurenko at the NYT

'As Russia suffered its most humiliating defeat since the initial stage of the war in Ukraine, cracks emerged in the official narrative as lawmakers and pundits on state television cast doubt on Moscow’s prospects.

'While some urged the Kremlin to start peace negotiations, others demanded that its forces double down. The divergence of views, even on tightly controlled state television networks, highlighted how Moscow’s narrative has quickly shifted from a conviction that it was only a matter of time before Russia subjugated Ukraine to a sense of alarm over the rapid progress of Kyiv’s forces. And it was a contrast from the muted response after Russia’s drive to take Kyiv failed in the spring.'


As the war drags on month after month, what does all of this mean?

Or, more to the point, given my own interest in this -- "dasein and thermo-nuclear war" -- how will Putin react if the news doesn't start getting better? Back to the options that revolve around using much more dangerous weapons. As in nuclear bombs. That way Russian forces wouldn't have to "double down". They could just go in and pick up the pieces.

And since Ukraine's success revolves in large part around America and its NATO allies arming the Ukrainians with advanced weapons systems, when does Putin start to take that into account? Maybe issue an ultimatum that this must stop...or else.

Stay tuned.
promethean75
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Re: Ukraine Crisis

Post by promethean75 »

Team Ukraine made some major gains recently and we'd like to congratulate them as well as give them our continued support.

Іди з'їж пеніс, Путіне!
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MagsJ
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Re: Ukraine Crisis

Post by MagsJ »

Gary Childress wrote: Mon Sep 05, 2022 2:18 pm When you said, "which country is innocent in all this" it sounded to me like you were putting responsibility for the current war up in the air between Ukraine and Russia. It seems pretty clear to me that Putin is responsible for current hostilities. This is his war that he alone can do the right thing and call off or continue to do evil and prosecute the war. Is it not?
Failed talks and constant supplies of weaponry, aren't helping.

Resolve the situation quickly, and/to move on.
Gary Childress
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Re: Ukraine Crisis

Post by Gary Childress »

MagsJ wrote: Wed Sep 14, 2022 1:52 pm
Gary Childress wrote: Mon Sep 05, 2022 2:18 pm When you said, "which country is innocent in all this" it sounded to me like you were putting responsibility for the current war up in the air between Ukraine and Russia. It seems pretty clear to me that Putin is responsible for current hostilities. This is his war that he alone can do the right thing and call off or continue to do evil and prosecute the war. Is it not?
Failed talks and constant supplies of weaponry, aren't helping.

Resolve the situation quickly, and/to move on.
Russia invaded. Is Ukraine supposed to not resist and let them roll through and then talk to them afterward and hope they leave? I mean, I don't blame countries for defending themselves against unjust invasions by our corrupt leaders, does Putin get a free pass for some seemingly odd reason?
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MagsJ
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Re: Ukraine Crisis

Post by MagsJ »

Gary Childress wrote: Wed Sep 14, 2022 10:55 pm Russia invaded. Is Ukraine supposed to not resist and let them roll through and then talk to them afterward and hope they leave? I mean, I don't blame countries for defending themselves against unjust invasions by our corrupt leaders, does Putin get a free pass for some seemingly odd reason?
I’ve had my say, otherwise I’ll just be repeating myself.

Good day.
popeye1945
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Re: Ukraine Crisis

Post by popeye1945 »

The American empire is quite insane and its aggression toward Russia and the rest of the world has made bedfellows of Russia and China, the balance of power is shifting. A dying American empire is a dangerous empire for the rest of the globe. The American empire has not been a kind master in the world and the world knows it even if American citizens cannot see the writing on the wall. America is putting the whole earth in jeopardy and could be compared to a global crime family.
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phyllo
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Re: Ukraine Crisis

Post by phyllo »

Blame the Americans for everything. That's just silly. :shock:
popeye1945
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Re: Ukraine Crisis

Post by popeye1945 »

phyllo wrote: Fri Sep 16, 2022 8:51 pm Blame the Americans for everything. That's just silly. :shock:
Of all the major and minor conflicts in the world, America has been involved in eighty percent of these incidents. You sound very much the innocent, if you get your information through the corporate-owned news television, papers, etc.., you never will hear the voice of the global community, not really their fault but the American people do have their heads up their asses. American's as run by the power elite are not allowed to think, and have lost that power.
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iambiguous
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Re: Ukraine Crisis

Post by iambiguous »

From the NYT:

'KYIV, Ukraine — President Biden has once again warned President Vladimir V. Putin of Russia against using unconventional or nuclear weapons to try to turn the tide of the war in Moscow’s favor, saying that such an action would “change the face of war unlike anything since World War II.”

'Speaking in an interview with the CBS News program “60 Minutes” that is scheduled to air on Sunday, Mr. Biden said that the United States’ response would be “consequential,” though he declined to go into detail.'


On the other hand...

From the NYT:

'WASHINGTON — Flush with success in northeast Ukraine, President Volodymyr Zelensky is pressing President Biden for a new and more powerful weapon: a missile system with a range of 190 miles, which could reach far into Russian territory.

'Mr. Zelensky insists to U.S. officials that he has no intention of striking Russian cities or aiming at civilian targets, even though President Vladimir V. Putin’s forces have hit apartment blocks, theaters and hospitals in Ukraine throughout the war. The weapon, Mr. Zelensky says, is critical to launching a wider counteroffensive, perhaps early next year.

'Mr. Biden is resisting, in part because he is convinced that over the past seven months, he has successfully signaled to Mr. Putin that he does not want a broader war with the Russians — he just wants them to get out of Ukraine.

'A shipment of long-range guided missiles, which could also give Ukraine new options for striking Crimea, the territory Russia annexed in 2014, would likely be seen by Moscow as a major provocation, Mr. Biden has concluded.'


Again, what is most crucial here for me is how so much of this revolves around how these two individual men will react to each other.

The highly problematic existential factors that can take this war in any number of "consequential" directions.

In some respects, international conflicts are "institutionalized". And both Buden and Putin are, no doubt, up to a point, embedded in them. On the other hand, who knows what's really going on inside their heads? And who can be absolutely certain that something that one of them chooses to do [for whatever reason] won't ignite a nuclear war.
Gary Childress
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Re: Ukraine Crisis

Post by Gary Childress »

popeye1945 wrote: Fri Sep 16, 2022 9:09 pm
phyllo wrote: Fri Sep 16, 2022 8:51 pm Blame the Americans for everything. That's just silly. :shock:
Of all the major and minor conflicts in the world, America has been involved in eighty percent of these incidents. You sound very much the innocent, if you get your information through the corporate-owned news television, papers, etc.., you never will hear the voice of the global community, not really their fault but the American people do have their heads up their asses. American's as run by the power elite are not allowed to think, and have lost that power.
I'll ask you the same thing that I asked MagsJ and which he ran away from, would you prefer that Ukraine not be able to defend itself? I mean, I'm not seeing the timeliness of your remark. It sounds like something out of Russian propaganda. Blame America for literally EVERYTHING even when we're not to blame? I'm not seeing the good that it does to shift the focus on the US for aiding Ukraine. I mean, if you want to slam the Bush Administrations (including Bush Sr.) for their disgraceful regimes, then it would probably be appropriate to do so in a more appropriate thread. Otherwise, you're pretty much off-topic or else engaging in an ad hominem--take your pick.
Gary Childress
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Re: Ukraine Crisis

Post by Gary Childress »

popeye1945 wrote: Fri Sep 16, 2022 8:06 pm The American empire is quite insane and its aggression toward Russia and the rest of the world has made bedfellows of Russia and China, the balance of power is shifting. A dying American empire is a dangerous empire for the rest of the globe. The American empire has not been a kind master in the world and the world knows it even if American citizens cannot see the writing on the wall. America is putting the whole earth in jeopardy and could be compared to a global crime family.
What American "aggression" toward Russia are you talking about?
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