Ukraine Crisis

How should society be organised, if at all?

Moderators: AMod, iMod

promethean75
Posts: 4881
Joined: Sun Nov 04, 2018 10:29 pm

Re: Ukraine Crisis

Post by promethean75 »

the bible mentions nothing about omniscience becuz the guys who wrote it were neither philosophers or logicians, and any philosopher or logician will tell you that omniscience is a logical necessity of God's nature... that you can't be a god unless you are omniscient.

one could argue that if god had a reason for creating the natural laws like he did, it must have meant that he knew in advance that those natural laws would work to accomplish the thing that was the reason for creating them in the first place. this means that god would be an intelligent and aware designer who knows what will happen before it happens, or else he wouldn't have chosen the natural laws that he did.

God is guilty of omniscient through association, as it were. we can directly infer foreknowledge of, and permission for, everything that happens, by God.

this court is adjurned. baliff, escort this god to the holding cell for processing please. 
User avatar
Immanuel Can
Posts: 22140
Joined: Wed Sep 25, 2013 4:42 pm

Re: Ukraine Crisis

Post by Immanuel Can »

promethean75 wrote: Wed Sep 28, 2022 8:38 pm the bible mentions nothing about omniscience becuz the guys who wrote it were neither philosophers or logicians,
Ah, so your supposition is that if they were, they would have? :shock:

I'll have to see your evidence for that.
omniscience is a logical necessity of God's nature
I think you mean "omnipotence," not "omniscience." And the "omni" just means "all." But it doesn't specify in advance the "all" in question, as in "all things good and evil," or "all He wishes to do."

But it has to be the latter. Because any being that can be forced to do something He doesn't want to do is not God.
God is guilty of omniscient through association,
That's the goofiest thing you've written so far. I can't even make it make sense.
we can directly infer foreknowledge of, and permission for, everything that happens, by God.
Fine. But foreknowledge is not causality. Any philosopher can tell you that.

If I foreknow you will snark back, it does not mean I made you do it, or that you didn't choose to do it yourself. Foreknowledge is thus not the issue. One can foreknow what you will do, but not have made you do it.
User avatar
iambiguous
Posts: 7106
Joined: Mon Nov 22, 2010 10:23 pm

Re: Ukraine Crisis

Post by iambiguous »

iambiguous wrote: Tue Sep 27, 2022 8:23 pm How truly ridiculous -- stupid? -- do you have to be to insist that the Christian God and mere mortals here on planet Earth are in an identical position in regard to the horrors unfolding in Ukraine? God sees all there, God is powerful enough to end the terrible suffering in a heartbeat. We're neither one.
Mr. Snippet wrote: Tue Sep 27, 2022 10:34 pmNo, no obfuscation, and no trying to force me to accept your conclusions. Just answer the question.

I'll repeat it:

"The question is, do you think human beings can have any say about what happens to them, or is that exclusively something you blame on God?"
Pretty stupid then, I'd say. How can someone not be embarrassed with "arguments" and "questions" like this?

It's got to be a "condition". There is simply no other explanation. 8)

But you're actually going to stick with, in my view, this truly absurd thinking, aren't you? Of course mere mortals have some measure of input in the war there. But how does that make them any more omniscient and omnipotent? And what of the babies and infants and children who have been killed, maimed and suffered terribly...what did they have to say about what happened to them?

"The war has caused an acute child protection crisis, including family separation, violence, abuse, sexual exploitation, and trafficking. Some children have been forcibly deported to Russia, where children are placed in foster care or adopted in violation of international humanitarian law."
CBS news

"Children continue to be killed, wounded and deeply traumatized by the violence all around them. Schools, hospitals and other civilian infrastructure on which they depend continue to be damaged or destroyed. Families have been separated and lives torn apart." UNICEF

Run this by your loving, just, merciful, omniscient and omnipotent Christian God and get back to us.
Omnipotent: (of a deity) having unlimited power; able to do anything
Immanuel Can wrote: Mon Sep 26, 2022 8:41 pm That's not my question.

My question is "exactly how"? Exactly how should God, if He's good, prevent the war. What are you expecting Him to do? Or to put it another way, exactly what hasn't he done, that you have noticed and had reason to say something like, "God hasn't done his job," or "God has failed to be moral by not doing the thing he should have."
And I answered it:
How would "I", fractured and fragmented in regard to conflicting goods of this sort, even begin to tell an omniscient/omnipotent God what He should do?!!
No, the question for Christians is why an omnipotent, all powerful God said to be loving, just and merciful allows these terrible wars to start in the first place...and then to proceed sometimes for months and years. Encompassing everything all the way up to the Holocaust. Though, sure, if some are able to fall back on His mysterious ways, I'm in no position to demonstrate otherwise. If that works for them, comforts and consoles them, then it does. Good for them.

But here in a philosophy forum, we should at least expect more substantive, introspective assessments. Nothing at all like yours, in my opinion. From my frame of mind, you are a disgrace to intellectual depth. At least henry quirk is [from time to time] able to go deeper in his own posts.

Well, if I do say so myself, of course. With you, however, I respond more in the way of entertaining myself. "Cat and mouse" as it were.

And you claim I'm not in a position to say that He has in fact not ended the war there? And, again, you want exactness here from me as though any mere mortal can provide it!!
User avatar
iambiguous
Posts: 7106
Joined: Mon Nov 22, 2010 10:23 pm

Re: Ukraine Crisis

Post by iambiguous »

Immanuel Can wrote: Wed Sep 28, 2022 12:04 am
iambiguous wrote: Tue Sep 27, 2022 11:09 pm I tended to focus more on omnipotence as pointed out to IC:

Omnipotent: (of a deity) having unlimited power; able to do anything.
That word might be something claimed by, say, Pantheists or Panentheists. The definition does not refer to the Christian concept of God, however.

For Christians, "omnipotent" means, "able to do anything consistent with His own nature." It does not mean, "Able to do silly things." It does not mean, "Able to do inherently self-contradictory things." It also does not mean, "Able to do things that are evil, contrary to His own nature."
And this has exactly what to with ending wars among mere mortals? That's silly? Ending the terrible, terrible suffering endured just by the truly innocent children alone is not consistent with His nature? Putting an end to wars and all of this...

"...an endless procession of earthquakes and volcanic eruptions and tornadoes and hurricanes and great floods and great droughts and great fires and deadly viral and bacterial plagues and miscarriages and hundreds and hundreds of medical and mental afflictions and extinction events...making life on Earth a living hell for countless millions of men, women and children down through the ages..."


...is "self-contradictory"? Ending wars and natural disasters and deadly viruses and extinction events would be "evil and against His nature?"

Then [as always] back to this:
Immanuel Can wrote: Wed Sep 28, 2022 12:04 amSo the Bible itself says that God cannot lie, cannot deny Himself, cannot sin, cannot fail, or fail to be true to Himself, cannot break His word...and so on. If that's what you require from the word "omnipotence," then it doesn't apply to the Christian God.
The Bible must be true because it is the word of God. And it must be the word of God because it says so in the Bible.

And not all Christians agree with your own "private and personal" dogma regarding God: https://answersingenesis.org/who-is-god ... mnipotent/

"So, is God omnipotent? The clear, biblical answer is yes."

Then back to this:

"To say that nothing is impossible for the Lord is to say that nothing that is possible according to God’s character and purpose is impossible for the Creator of the universe."

So, in not ending all wars and in not ending all natural disasters, and medical afflictions and pandemics and plagues and extinction events, that must be an inherent component of His Character?
Age
Posts: 20043
Joined: Sun Aug 05, 2018 8:17 am

Re: Ukraine Crisis

Post by Age »

iambiguous wrote: Fri Sep 30, 2022 2:45 am
Immanuel Can wrote: Wed Sep 28, 2022 12:04 am
iambiguous wrote: Tue Sep 27, 2022 11:09 pm I tended to focus more on omnipotence as pointed out to IC:

Omnipotent: (of a deity) having unlimited power; able to do anything.
That word might be something claimed by, say, Pantheists or Panentheists. The definition does not refer to the Christian concept of God, however.

For Christians, "omnipotent" means, "able to do anything consistent with His own nature." It does not mean, "Able to do silly things." It does not mean, "Able to do inherently self-contradictory things." It also does not mean, "Able to do things that are evil, contrary to His own nature."
And this has exactly what to with ending wars among mere mortals? That's silly? Ending the terrible, terrible suffering endured just by the truly innocent children alone is not consistent with His nature? Putting an end to wars and all of this...

"...an endless procession of earthquakes and volcanic eruptions and tornadoes and hurricanes and great floods and great droughts and great fires and deadly viral and bacterial plagues and miscarriages and hundreds and hundreds of medical and mental afflictions and extinction events...making life on Earth a living hell for countless millions of men, women and children down through the ages..."


...is "self-contradictory"? Ending wars and natural disasters and deadly viruses and extinction events would be "evil and against His nature?"
To think or see natural occurrences, viruses, and/or non human made extinction events as "disasters", "deadly", and/or "evil" and "against (God's) Nature" is to have such a NARROWED, SHALLOW, and SHORT SIGHTED view of 'things', that to have these views is close enough to being a Truly CLOSED person and thus to also being BLINDED to what thee ACTUAL Truth IS, EXACTLY.

Also, ENDING 'wars' is WITH, and IS, (God's) Nature. But, God also NEVER 'forces' 'you', adult human beings, to do absolutely ANY thing AT ALL, which 'you' do NOT want to do. 'you' ALL are completely and utterly absolutely FREE to do completely and utterly absolutely ANY thing, of YOUR CHOOSING.
iambiguous wrote: Fri Sep 30, 2022 2:45 am Then [as always] back to this:
Immanuel Can wrote: Wed Sep 28, 2022 12:04 amSo the Bible itself says that God cannot lie, cannot deny Himself, cannot sin, cannot fail, or fail to be true to Himself, cannot break His word...and so on. If that's what you require from the word "omnipotence," then it doesn't apply to the Christian God.
The Bible must be true because it is the word of God. And it must be the word of God because it says so in the Bible.
The CIRCULAR ABSURDITY and RIDICULOUS so-called "reasoning" of this needs not to be repeated.
iambiguous wrote: Fri Sep 30, 2022 2:45 am And not all Christians agree with your own "private and personal" dogma regarding God: https://answersingenesis.org/who-is-god ... mnipotent/

"So, is God omnipotent? The clear, biblical answer is yes."
OF COURSE God IS OMNIPOTENT. But one HAS TO FIRST LEARN and UNDERSTAND what 'It' is that the 'God' word here is referring to EXACTLY, to then be ABLE TO UNDERSTAND, FULLY, what IS MEANT by the term God IS OMNIPOTENT.
iambiguous wrote: Fri Sep 30, 2022 2:45 am Then back to this:

"To say that nothing is impossible for the Lord is to say that nothing that is possible according to God’s character and purpose is impossible for the Creator of the universe."

So, in not ending all wars and in not ending all natural disasters, and medical afflictions and pandemics and plagues and extinction events, that must be an inherent component of His Character?
Wrong, Wrong, AND Wrong, ONCE AGAIN.

But this is just the result of MISINTERPRETING 'things', WITHOUT SEEKING and OBTAINING CLARITY FIRST.

AFTER GAINING CLARITY in who and what God IS, EXACTLY, then WHY what you CLAIM is here is just SO STUPID and ABSURD BECOMES CRYSTAL CLEAR.

Oh, and by the way, the reason WHY 'you' ONLY CHALLENGE and QUESTION "immanuel can" here is CRYSTAL CLEAR, and WHY 'you' RUN AWAY and HIDE "yourself" when being QUESTIONED and CHALLENGED is CRYSTAL CLEAR ALSO.
User avatar
Immanuel Can
Posts: 22140
Joined: Wed Sep 25, 2013 4:42 pm

Re: Ukraine Crisis

Post by Immanuel Can »

iambiguous wrote: Fri Sep 30, 2022 2:15 am
Mr. Snippet wrote: Tue Sep 27, 2022 10:34 pmNo, no obfuscation, and no trying to force me to accept your conclusions. Just answer the question.

I'll repeat it:

"The question is, do you think human beings can have any say about what happens to them, or is that exclusively something you blame on God?"
Pretty stupid then, I'd say.
No answer. Just rhetoric. Not surprising, but disappointing as a response.

Since you won't answer, we'll leave it there. No point in trying to get water from a rock.
User avatar
iambiguous
Posts: 7106
Joined: Mon Nov 22, 2010 10:23 pm

Re: Ukraine Crisis

Post by iambiguous »

henry quirk wrote: Wed Sep 28, 2022 12:11 am
Yeah, I thought so. Only I tended to focus more on omnipotence as pointed out to IC:
Omnipotent: (of a deity) having unlimited power; able to do anything.
While, from my frame of mind, your "omnipotence" revolves more around providing us with a set of "mere mortal" assumptions -- political prejudices rooted existentially in dasein -- about the conflict.
Nope, I told you what I, as a finite being thought of my havin' infinite power. That's it. That's all.
Yes, you are a finite being who was born at a particular time historically, in a particular place culturally and then accumulated a particular set of personal experiences, relationships and access to information and knowledge. Just like all the rest of us. Which explains in part why there are so many diverse and conflicting value judgments about any number of behaviors being championed around the globe.

Including diverse and conflicting assessments about the war in Ukraine.

Only the fulminating fanatic objectivists among us just shrug that part off and insist that their own moral and political value judgments are the optimal or even the only rational dogma to embrace. Re God or No God fonts. They think nothing of calling others "morons" if, after imparting their own arrogant, authoritarian and autocratic "pearls of wisdom" to them, they still have the temerity to actually disagree!

You picked that up from Satyr, right?
And then connecting the dots between that and your own pathetic Deity.
henry quirk wrote: Wed Sep 28, 2022 12:11 amEr, I never brought up the deist conception of God. I did suggest why a God might not interfere. If I were talkin' talkin' about mine all I woulda said is: He be gone (and also, mebbe, that I never said my God was omnipotent [or omniscient]).
Come on, henry, either the Deist God exists or He doesn't. Either you can demonstrate that He does in fact exist or it all revolves solely around what you believe about Him "in your head"...In a more or less blind leap of faith. Either your Deist God is omniscient and omnipotent or He isn't. Either it matters to Him which behaviors you choose on this side of the grave or it doesn't. Either you will be judged by Him when you shuffle off your mortal coil down here or you won't.

In other words, in the end, what matters more, what you say about Him or what is actually -- demonstrably -- true?
I mean, what God sets into motion all of this...

"...an endless procession of earthquakes and volcanic eruptions and tornadoes and hurricanes and great floods and great droughts and great fires and deadly viral and bacterial plagues and miscarriages and hundreds and hundreds of medical and mental afflictions and extinction events...making life on Earth a living hell for countless millions of men, women and children down through the ages..."

And then just skips town?
henry quirk wrote: Wed Sep 28, 2022 12:11 amOne who doesn't care? Has other things to do? Is six feet under? Is a sadist? Or mebbe -- once the game was in motion -- couldn't and can't intefere?

Hell if I know. Can't say I much care either.
That's just great, henry. Your God creates us. He creates a planet on which we can interact. Savagely if we wish. A planet that is often little more than a ghastly horror show. But why should any mere mortals actually care about that? Shit happens. Let's think of the Deist God as we would that.

Deism, however, is said to be based on reason. Yet Deists, just like the rest of us, "follow the dictates of reason and nature" all up and down the moral and political spectrum.

Or, perhaps, there is one and only one truly rational path to take in regard to the war in Ukraine and abortion and guns?

Yours?

But if you argue "no, not necessarily mine" then how is that not to suggest instead the "you're right from your side, I'm right from m ine" approach to conflicting goods? Even among Deists themselves, right?

Then back to your own political narrative derived [from my frame of mind] from your own political prejudices derived existentially from dasein...from the accumulation of your own uniquely personal experiences.
henry quirk wrote: Wed Sep 28, 2022 12:11 amJust to kinda, sorta stay on the formal topic...

Up-thread, I said: We're not watchin' a war: we're watchin' propaganda about a conflict we're told is a war. We're an audience to another scripted event.

Sumthin' violent is goin' over there. There's a conflict of some kind. There's also a helluva lot of massagin' of info goin' on. Different folks with different agendas are skewin' info then presenting it. It's reality television: real events are recorded then the footage is edited to fit a storyline...30 hours of raw and unscripted is turned into an hour of polished and scripted.

Why? To distract from domestic woes, yeah, but also: these folks can't help themselves...they're as autistic as you-know-who...for them, the storyline is real, and what's actual is just fodder for the storytellin'.
So, is this the definitive assessment of what is going on there? And, if others don't share it, does that make them "morons", or "simply wrong"?
henry quirk wrote: Wed Sep 28, 2022 12:11 amSome say Putin is justified; some say he isn't but all are assessn' based on the false notion The State is legitimate.
Right, the false notion about the legitimacy of The State. And, again, only "morons" don't think exactly as you do about all of this.

Indeed, no assessment of The State from any of these perspectives...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_p ... ideologies

...qualify as even being worthy of discussion.
User avatar
iambiguous
Posts: 7106
Joined: Mon Nov 22, 2010 10:23 pm

Re: Ukraine Crisis

Post by iambiguous »

ME:
iambiguous wrote: Tue Sep 27, 2022 8:23 pm How truly ridiculous -- stupid? -- do you have to be to insist that the Christian God and mere mortals here on planet Earth are in an identical position in regard to the horrors unfolding in Ukraine? God sees all there, God is powerful enough to end the terrible suffering in a heartbeat. We're neither one.
Mr. Snippet wrote: Tue Sep 27, 2022 10:34 pmNo, no obfuscation, and no trying to force me to accept your conclusions. Just answer the question.

I'll repeat it:

"The question is, do you think human beings can have any say about what happens to them, or is that exclusively something you blame on God?"
Pretty stupid then, I'd say. How can someone not be embarrassed with "arguments" and "questions" like this?

It's got to be a "condition". There is simply no other explanation. 8)

But you're actually going to stick with, in my view, this truly absurd thinking, aren't you? Of course mere mortals have some measure of input in the war there. But how does that make them any more omniscient and omnipotent? And what of the babies and infants and children who have been killed, maimed and suffered terribly...what did they have to say about what happened to them?

"The war has caused an acute child protection crisis, including family separation, violence, abuse, sexual exploitation, and trafficking. Some children have been forcibly deported to Russia, where children are placed in foster care or adopted in violation of international humanitarian law."
CBS news

"Children continue to be killed, wounded and deeply traumatized by the violence all around them. Schools, hospitals and other civilian infrastructure on which they depend continue to be damaged or destroyed. Families have been separated and lives torn apart." UNICEF

Run this by your loving, just, merciful, omniscient and omnipotent Christian God and get back to us.
Omnipotent: (of a deity) having unlimited power; able to do anything
Immanuel Can wrote: Mon Sep 26, 2022 8:41 pm That's not my question.

My question is "exactly how"? Exactly how should God, if He's good, prevent the war. What are you expecting Him to do? Or to put it another way, exactly what hasn't he done, that you have noticed and had reason to say something like, "God hasn't done his job," or "God has failed to be moral by not doing the thing he should have."
And I answered it:
How would "I", fractured and fragmented in regard to conflicting goods of this sort, even begin to tell an omniscient/omnipotent God what He should do?!!
No, the question for Christians is why an omnipotent, all powerful God said to be loving, just and merciful allows these terrible wars to start in the first place...and then to proceed sometimes for months and years. Encompassing everything all the way up to the Holocaust. Though, sure, if some are able to fall back on His mysterious ways, I'm in no position to demonstrate otherwise. If that works for them, comforts and consoles them, then it does. Good for them.

But here in a philosophy forum, we should at least expect more substantive, introspective assessments. Nothing at all like yours, in my opinion. From my frame of mind, you are a disgrace to intellectual depth. At least henry quirk is [from time to time] able to go deeper in his own posts.

Well, if I do say so myself, of course. With you, however, I respond more in the way of entertaining myself. "Cat and mouse" as it were.

And you claim I'm not in a position to say that He has in fact not ended the war there? And, again, you want exactness here from me as though any mere mortal can provide it!!
HIM:
Immanuel Can wrote: Fri Sep 30, 2022 3:04 pm
iambiguous wrote: Fri Sep 30, 2022 2:15 am
Mr. Snippet wrote: Tue Sep 27, 2022 10:34 pmNo, no obfuscation, and no trying to force me to accept your conclusions. Just answer the question.

I'll repeat it:

"The question is, do you think human beings can have any say about what happens to them, or is that exclusively something you blame on God?"
Pretty stupid then, I'd say.
No answer. Just rhetoric. Not surprising, but disappointing as a response.

Since you won't answer, we'll leave it there. No point in trying to get water from a rock.
Absolutely embarrassing!!!
User avatar
iambiguous
Posts: 7106
Joined: Mon Nov 22, 2010 10:23 pm

Re: Ukraine Crisis

Post by iambiguous »

'President Vladimir V. Putin on Friday asserted that Russia would take control of four Ukrainian regions and decried the United States for “Satanism” in a speech that marked an escalation in Moscow’s war against Ukraine and positioned Russia, in starkly confrontational terms, as fighting an existential battle with Western elites he deemed “the enemy.”

'Speaking to hundreds of Russian lawmakers and governors in a grand Kremlin hall, Mr. Putin said that the residents of the four regions — which are still partially controlled by Ukrainian forces — would become Russia’s citizens “forever.” He then held a signing ceremony with the Russian-installed heads of those regions to start the official annexation process, before clasping hands with them and chanting “Russia! Russia!”'


New York Times

Once the rhetoric goes beyond us vs. them in Ukraine to us vs. them in "the West", that can only be an ominous indicator of things to come.

How far will he go?

And, if you were Biden, how far would you go to stop him?

All the way?
Gary Childress
Posts: 7966
Joined: Sun Sep 25, 2011 3:08 pm
Location: Retirement Home for foolosophers

Re: Ukraine Crisis

Post by Gary Childress »

iambiguous wrote: Fri Sep 30, 2022 4:53 pm 'President Vladimir V. Putin on Friday asserted that Russia would take control of four Ukrainian regions and decried the United States for “Satanism” in a speech that marked an escalation in Moscow’s war against Ukraine and positioned Russia, in starkly confrontational terms, as fighting an existential battle with Western elites he deemed “the enemy.”

'Speaking to hundreds of Russian lawmakers and governors in a grand Kremlin hall, Mr. Putin said that the residents of the four regions — which are still partially controlled by Ukrainian forces — would become Russia’s citizens “forever.” He then held a signing ceremony with the Russian-installed heads of those regions to start the official annexation process, before clasping hands with them and chanting “Russia! Russia!”'


New York Times

Once the rhetoric goes beyond us vs. them in Ukraine to us vs. them in "the West", that can only be an ominous indicator of things to come.

How far will he go?

And, if you were Biden, how far would you go to stop him?

All the way?
Well, maybe Putin is right on that account. It's the Russian oligarchs vs. Western oligarchs with the rest of us stuck in the crossfire.
User avatar
Immanuel Can
Posts: 22140
Joined: Wed Sep 25, 2013 4:42 pm

Re: Ukraine Crisis

Post by Immanuel Can »

Gary Childress wrote: Fri Sep 30, 2022 5:12 pm Well, maybe Putin is right on that account. It's the Russian oligarchs vs. Western oligarchs with the rest of us stuck in the crossfire.
Absolutely right.

Americans don't want this war. Russians, Germans, Poles...etc. are not having fun with it, for sure. No way Ukrainians want it.

Putin, Zelenski, Biden and their backers and puppeteers...they want it.

They started it.

And they're keeping it going.
User avatar
henry quirk
Posts: 14706
Joined: Fri May 09, 2008 8:07 pm
Location: Right here, a little less busy.

Re: Ukraine Crisis

Post by henry quirk »

You picked that up from Satyr, right?
Sez the guy doin' the (bad) Satyr imitation.

*
Come on, henry, either the Deist God exists or He doesn't.
I believe He does.

*
Either you can demonstrate that He does in fact exist or it all revolves solely around what you believe about Him "in your head"...In a more or less blind leap of faith.
I can't, to your satisfaction, demonstrate He exists.

*
Either your Deist God is omniscient and omnipotent or He isn't.
I don't believe He is omniscient or omnipotent.

*
Either it matters to Him which behaviors you choose on this side of the grave or it doesn't.
It doesn't seem to me He's interested.

*
Either you will be judged by Him when you shuffle off your mortal coil down here or you won't.
It doesn't seem to me there's an afterlife or any Judgement levied by Him placin' me in some specific afterlife.

*
In other words, in the end, what matters more, what you say about Him or what is actually -- demonstrably -- true?
I believe what I say about Him is true; I can't demonstrate, to your satisfsction, that what I say about Him is true.

*
That's just great, henry. Your God creates us. He creates a planet on which we can interact. Savagely if we wish. A planet that is often little more than a ghastly horror show. But why should any mere mortals actually care about that? Shit happens. Let's think of the Deist God as we would that.
It is great. We're free wills, points of creative & causal power. We're free men with natural rights. This is a good deal.

You see ghastly horror show; I see challenge.

As for how any of us choose to think of Him: seems to me, He doesn't seem to care way or another.

*
Deism, however, is said to be based on reason.
Not by me.

*
Yet Deists, just like the rest of us, "follow the dictates of reason and nature" all up and down the moral and political spectrum.
Sez you, not me.

*
Or, perhaps, there is one and only one truly rational path to take in regard to the war in Ukraine and abortion and guns?
Morally...

Ukraine: free man, slaver, or slave. Pick which is best for you and live with the consequences.

Abortion: recognize & respect persons or murder them. Pick which is best for you and live with the consequences.

Guns: recognize & respect a man's natural, unalienable right to his property or rob him. Pick which is best for you and live with the consequences.

*
Yours?
Yep.

*
So, is this the definitive assessment of what is going on there?
Nope. I don't know what's goin' on there. Neither do you. I told you how, whatever it is that's goin' on there, it's bein' propagandized.

*

And, if others don't share it, does that make them "morons", or "simply wrong"?
Both.

*
Indeed, no assessment of The State from any of these perspectives...qualify as even being worthy of discussion.
That's correct.

*
from my frame of mind
That's an unhealthy place to be.

*
you are a finite being who was born at a particular time historically, in a particular place culturally and then accumulated a particular set of personal experiences, relationships and access to information and knowledge.
No matter where or when I am, I am always...

A free will. A free man with a natural, inalienable right to my, and no one else's, life, liberty, and property.

Where and when I'm situated has no bearing on these truths.

*
Including diverse and conflicting assessments about the war in Ukraine.
All these assessments mean squat. Fact: iterations of The State (an illegitimate construct no matter the iteration) vy with each other. What these iterations vy for: property, control of property (and property, as The State defines it, includes men).

That's it. That's all.

now, somebody ask me What is The State?
Gary Childress
Posts: 7966
Joined: Sun Sep 25, 2011 3:08 pm
Location: Retirement Home for foolosophers

Re: Ukraine Crisis

Post by Gary Childress »

Immanuel Can wrote: Fri Sep 30, 2022 5:19 pm
Gary Childress wrote: Fri Sep 30, 2022 5:12 pm Well, maybe Putin is right on that account. It's the Russian oligarchs vs. Western oligarchs with the rest of us stuck in the crossfire.
Absolutely right.

Americans don't want this war. Russians, Germans, Poles...etc. are not having fun with it, for sure. No way Ukrainians want it.

Putin, Zelenski, Biden and their backers and puppeteers...they want it.

They started it.

And they're keeping it going.
Because neither side wants to "lose face" or look "weaker" than the other. My first thought; call a cease-fire and let the Russian oligarchs annex the areas they occupy. Then all the oligarchs on both sides walk away with some victory and some defeat and call it even.
User avatar
Immanuel Can
Posts: 22140
Joined: Wed Sep 25, 2013 4:42 pm

Re: Ukraine Crisis

Post by Immanuel Can »

Gary Childress wrote: Fri Sep 30, 2022 6:12 pm
Immanuel Can wrote: Fri Sep 30, 2022 5:19 pm
Gary Childress wrote: Fri Sep 30, 2022 5:12 pm Well, maybe Putin is right on that account. It's the Russian oligarchs vs. Western oligarchs with the rest of us stuck in the crossfire.
Absolutely right.

Americans don't want this war. Russians, Germans, Poles...etc. are not having fun with it, for sure. No way Ukrainians want it.

Putin, Zelenski, Biden and their backers and puppeteers...they want it.

They started it.

And they're keeping it going.
Because neither side wants to "lose face" or look "weaker" than the other.
More than that, I think. I don't know exactly what, but I know Hunter Biden is no oil expert. What's he doing on the board of a Ukrainian oil consortium? And why are there germ labs in Ukraine? And why does Ukraine have to join NATO? And who bombed the Russian pipeline in the North Sea, with three high-explosive charges, creating the biggest environmental disaster in recent history?

There's a whole sordid story here, and the victims are Europeans citizens generally, and also Russians and the people of Ukraine.
Gary Childress
Posts: 7966
Joined: Sun Sep 25, 2011 3:08 pm
Location: Retirement Home for foolosophers

Re: Ukraine Crisis

Post by Gary Childress »

Immanuel Can wrote: Fri Sep 30, 2022 6:35 pm
Gary Childress wrote: Fri Sep 30, 2022 6:12 pm
Immanuel Can wrote: Fri Sep 30, 2022 5:19 pm
Absolutely right.

Americans don't want this war. Russians, Germans, Poles...etc. are not having fun with it, for sure. No way Ukrainians want it.

Putin, Zelenski, Biden and their backers and puppeteers...they want it.

They started it.

And they're keeping it going.
Because neither side wants to "lose face" or look "weaker" than the other.
More than that, I think. I don't know exactly what, but I know Hunter Biden is no oil expert. What's he doing on the board of a Ukrainian oil consortium? And why are there germ labs in Ukraine? And why does Ukraine have to join NATO? And who bombed the Russian pipeline in the North Sea, with three high-explosive charges, creating the biggest environmental disaster in recent history?

There's a whole sordid story here, and the victims are Europeans citizens generally, and also Russians and the people of Ukraine.
I think few of us probably know the answers to those questions above. And it probably does little good to speculate until we know for sure. I mean, I would hope the CIA would have learned by now that their "covert" ops in the past have accomplished nothing but worldwide humiliation and disgrace for the US, however, I wouldn't put it past some gung ho director looking for a promotion to come up with such a depraved plan. @#$%&!! They dare call it the "intelligence" community.
Post Reply