Ukraine Crisis

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Immanuel Can
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Re: Ukraine Crisis

Post by Immanuel Can »

iambiguous wrote: Sat Sep 24, 2022 5:32 am David Brooks at the NYT
'American officials don’t seem to know whether Putin will or won’t use nukes...
Does anybody really believe this line?

They must know.

Let's imagine ourselves being Putin (Weird, I know: but how else are we going to judge this?). Okay: so you're losing a war. The American president has announced that the goal of their war is regime change. That means you get ousted...your enemies and competitors, both inside the country and out, find you without defenses, without advocates, without power and without alternatives. You've not been popular with everybody...there are those with scores to settle...and ambitious men surround you...

You can imagine very easily how that is going to end, for you. You are not going to be retiring peacefully to a dacha on Lake Baikal. That's for sure.

You have lost your tank force. Your airforce cannot replenish itself fast enough to keep up with losses. Your ground forces are disspirited and fleeing. Your navy's irrelevant. You have only your stock of nuclear missiles left.

Do you fire them, or not?

Do you let your enemies have you, or do you not let them get to you until you have exhausted every means of negating your opposition? If you still have an arrow in your quiver, do you let them take you?

Now, Putin, by all reputation, is likely somewhat less stable emotionally and morally than the average poster here. Probably. :wink: And if the answer looks to us like, "fight until the last option is gone," then what must we suppose Putin's disposition toward that question is likely to be?

So how could the American government not know what they are pushing Putin to do?
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Re: Ukraine Crisis

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Immanuel Can wrote: Mon Sep 26, 2022 3:23 pm
iambiguous wrote: Sat Sep 24, 2022 5:32 am David Brooks at the NYT
'American officials don’t seem to know whether Putin will or won’t use nukes...
Does anybody really believe this line?

They must know.

Let's imagine ourselves being Putin (Weird, I know: but how else are we going to judge this?). Okay: so you're losing a war. The American president has announced that the goal of their war is regime change. That means you get ousted...your enemies and competitors, both inside the country and out, find you without defenses, without advocates, without power and without alternatives. You've not been popular with everybody...there are those with scores to settle...and ambitious men surround you...

You can imagine very easily how that is going to end, for you. You are not going to be retiring peacefully to a dacha on Lake Baikal. That's for sure.

You have lost your tank force. Your airforce cannot replenish itself fast enough to keep up with losses. Your ground forces are disspirited and fleeing. Your navy's irrelevant. You have only your stock of nuclear missiles left.

Do you fire them, or not?

Do you let your enemies have you, or do you not let them get to you until you have exhausted every means of negating your opposition? If you still have an arrow in your quiver, do you let them take you?

Now, Putin, by all reputation, is likely somewhat less stable emotionally and morally than the average poster here. Probably. :wink: And if the answer looks to us like, "fight until the last option is gone," then what must we suppose Putin's disposition toward that question is likely to be?

So how could the American government not know what they are pushing Putin to do?
Next up:

Where the 1] loving, just and merciful and 2] omniscient and omnipotent Christian God fits into all of this.

And the YouTube video proving it.
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Immanuel Can
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Re: Ukraine Crisis

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iambiguous wrote: Mon Sep 26, 2022 6:45 pm Next up: Where the 1] loving, just and merciful and 2] omniscient and omnipotent Christian God fits into all of this.
Well, that was a radical left-turn from the topic. :D

But it doesn't bother me any. What's your question? Do you want to make God responsible for Putin now? Or for Biden? Or for both? Or did you want Him to be responsible for what the Russian troops did, or what the Ukrainians did in return? Or did you want Him to take responsibility for Hunter Biden and Burisma, or for Afghanistan? Or maybe the Crimean War? Or the Napoleonic, maybe? :lol:

You're going to have to be more specific, because it's certainly not obvious how God is supposed to be responsible for what man does. But I'm sure you'll explain.
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iambiguous
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Re: Ukraine Crisis

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Immanuel Can wrote: Mon Sep 26, 2022 7:55 pm
iambiguous wrote: Mon Sep 26, 2022 6:45 pm Next up:

Where the 1] loving, just and merciful and 2] omniscient and omnipotent Christian God fits into all of this.
Well, that was a radical left-turn from the topic. :D

But it doesn't bother me any. What's your question? Do you want to make God responsible for Putin now? Or for Biden? Or for both? Or did you want Him to be responsible for what the Russian troops did, or what the Ukrainians did in return? Or did you want Him to take responsibility for Hunter Biden and Burisma, or for Afghanistan? Or maybe the Crimean War? Or the Napoleonic, maybe? :lol:

You're going to have to be more specific, because it's certainly not obvious how God is supposed to be responsible for what man does. But I'm sure you'll explain.
Specifics, eh?

Okay, an omniscient Christian God knows of the terrible, terrible suffering that has been inflicted upon millions and millions of men, women and children as a result of wars down through the ages.

And an omnipotent Christian God in the blink of an eye could have put a stop to it.

But this loving, just and merciful Christian God did and does nothing.

Just as He did and does nothing in regard to the terrible, terrible suffering inflicted upon millions and millions of men, women and children as a result of this...

"...an endless procession of earthquakes and volcanic eruptions and tornadoes and hurricanes and great floods and great droughts and great fires and deadly viral and bacterial plagues and miscarriages and hundreds and hundreds of medical and mental afflictions and extinction events...making life on Earth a living hell for countless millions of men, women and children down through the ages..."

But at least it doesn't bother you any.
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Immanuel Can
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Re: Ukraine Crisis

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iambiguous wrote: Mon Sep 26, 2022 8:29 pm Specifics, eh?

Okay, an omniscient Christian God knows of the terrible, terrible suffering that has been inflicted upon millions and millions of men, women and children as a result of wars down through the ages.
So "wars"? "Wars" are God's fault, are they? No human involvement there?
And an omnipotent Christian God in the blink of an eye could have put a stop to it.
No doubt. But let's think about that.

Maybe you can describe exactly how He'd do that. Let's play that out, and see how you think it would go.

Man wants to go to war. God's going to stop it.

How? What do you want Him to do?
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Re: Ukraine Crisis

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iambiguous wrote: Mon Sep 26, 2022 8:29 pm Specifics, eh?

Okay, an omniscient Christian God knows of the terrible, terrible suffering that has been inflicted upon millions and millions of men, women and children as a result of wars down through the ages.
Immanuel Can wrote: Mon Sep 26, 2022 8:41 pm So "wars"? "Wars" are God's fault, are they? No human involvement there?
Humans are involved, sure. But humans are neither omniscient nor omnipotent. Nope, not even the fulminating fanatic objectivists.

Note to the humans reading this:

If you were omnipotent and had the power to stop Putin in Ukraine, to end the terrible suffering -- https://central.asia-news.com/en_GB/art ... feature-01 -- of countless tens of thousands or truly innocent men, women and children, would you do it? If you knew someone who had this power and refused to use it, would this or would this not really piss you off?
And an omnipotent Christian God in the blink of an eye could have put a stop to it.

But this loving, just and merciful Christian God did and does nothing.
Immanuel Can wrote: Mon Sep 26, 2022 8:41 pm No doubt. But let's think about that.

Maybe you can describe exactly how He'd do that. Let's play that out, and see how you think it would go.

Man wants to go to war. God's going to stop it.

How? What do you want Him to do?


Huh?

Omnipotent: (of a deity) having unlimited power; able to do anything

How would any mere mortal describe how God would do it? That he could do it but does not need be as far as we go. After all, why do you suppose Rabbi Harold Kushner wrote a best seller suggesting that human pain and suffering continues precisely because the God of Abraham is indeed loving just and merciful, is indeed omniscient...just not omnipotent.

Some men want to go to war. Especially those who own and operate the military industrial complex. What, do you think the ghastly weapon systems employed by Putin and sent to Ukraine by Biden and NATO governments grow on trees? Do you think the arms manufactures just donated these weapons to Zelenskyy?

And what of those Christians who are trying to end the conflict? Shouldn't they be thinking to themselves, "if God wanted the war to end, He would end it. He doesn't so maybe I should do what I can to sustain it myself."
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Immanuel Can
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Re: Ukraine Crisis

Post by Immanuel Can »

iambiguous wrote: Tue Sep 27, 2022 1:53 am
iambiguous wrote: Mon Sep 26, 2022 8:29 pm Specifics, eh?

Okay, an omniscient Christian God knows of the terrible, terrible suffering that has been inflicted upon millions and millions of men, women and children as a result of wars down through the ages.
Immanuel Can wrote: Mon Sep 26, 2022 8:41 pm So "wars"? "Wars" are God's fault, are they? No human involvement there?
Humans are involved, sure. But humans are neither omniscient nor omnipotent.
That makes no difference. They could be knowledgeable or ignorant, powerful or only powerful in a limted way, and the problem would be identical.

The question is, do you think human beings can have any say about what happens to them, or is that exclusively something you blame on God?
Immanuel Can wrote: Mon Sep 26, 2022 8:41 pm No doubt. But let's think about that.

Maybe you can describe exactly how He'd do that. Let's play that out, and see how you think it would go.

Man wants to go to war. God's going to stop it.

How? What do you want Him to do?
Huh?
It's a very reasonable question. You are implying God is derelict in some aspect of what he "should have done," so to speak. It's only fair you tell us what you think he should have done, in detail.

If you didn't know, you could never accuse Him of having failed to have done it.

So what is that thing you think he should have done, when men decided they wanted to start a war?
Some men want to go to war.
Right. So exactly what would a "good" God, in your estimation, do in order to prevent that?
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Re: Ukraine Crisis

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Immanuel Can wrote: Tue Sep 27, 2022 3:10 am Right. So exactly what would a "good" God, in your estimation, do in order to prevent that?
1. Have Putin die peacefully in his sleep. That might give the Russian people an out to end the war.

2. Send Jesus to do to Putin what he did to Paul. If he can convert Paul, he can convert Putin.

3...
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Re: Ukraine Crisis

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If you were omnipotent and had the power to stop Putin in Ukraine, to end the terrible suffering of countless tens of thousands or truly innocent men, women and children, would you do it?
I've thought about this (it's a simple variation of the old sci fi chestnut if you could go back in time and end Hitler before he did his thing, would you?). First impulse -- with Hitler or Putin -- is to say hell yes I would!. But, if you think about it...

Keep in mind: we're not talkin' about a drug-addled wastrel waylayin' someone in a parkin' lot. At the moment, Putin is a pivotal figure. His actions, or absence, (would) affect the whole of the world. For example: the space left open by an ended Putin might very well get filled by someone worse than him.

So, end that one too, Henry might be the response. Or arrange things so someone better takes Putin's place, or, just step and do it yourself, omnipotent Quirk: run the world.

See how it goes? God, creatin' free wills with everything bein' a free will entails, interposin' Himself when things get dicey, can only lead to greater, more frequent, interposings. Free wills are negated. Men are rendered meat machines.

So, no, If I were omnipotent and had the power to stop Putin in Ukraine, to end the terrible suffering of countless tens of thousands or truly innocent men, women and children, I wouldn't do it, not if I spent five friggin' minutes thinkin' about the ultimate consequences.

If you knew someone who had this power and refused to use it, would this or would this not really piss you off?
It would piss me off if I were short-sighted and didn't value bein' a free will.
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Immanuel Can
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Re: Ukraine Crisis

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Gary Childress wrote: Tue Sep 27, 2022 10:58 am
Immanuel Can wrote: Tue Sep 27, 2022 3:10 am Right. So exactly what would a "good" God, in your estimation, do in order to prevent that?
1. Have Putin die peacefully in his sleep. That might give the Russian people an out to end the war.

2. Send Jesus to do to Putin what he did to Paul. If he can convert Paul, he can convert Putin.

3...
Okay, let's think about #1 and 2, Gary.

As for #1, let's assume God has a moral duty to kill Putin...maybe it has to be "peaceful" and "in his sleep," too, so we avoid unnecessary suffering, even for Putin. Is it just Putin, or is it the various seconds-in-command and potential supplanters that will takeover his role when he's gone? And should God have done the same with, say, Mao (who was, beyond question, worse than Putin) or Stalin or Hitler (both worse than Putin)? And how about Caesar, Napoleon, Charlemagne, Saladin, Gorbechev, Nixon, Kennedy...how far do we go with this policy of eliminating these sorts of people? How long is the list?

And as for #2, should God force Putin to believe in Him, or would it be enough if He made it perfectly possible and reasonable...maybe even emotionally-compelling...for Putin to choose to believe in Him, but left the final decision up to Putin?
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Re: Ukraine Crisis

Post by Gary Childress »

Immanuel Can wrote: Tue Sep 27, 2022 4:25 pm
Gary Childress wrote: Tue Sep 27, 2022 10:58 am
Immanuel Can wrote: Tue Sep 27, 2022 3:10 am Right. So exactly what would a "good" God, in your estimation, do in order to prevent that?
1. Have Putin die peacefully in his sleep. That might give the Russian people an out to end the war.

2. Send Jesus to do to Putin what he did to Paul. If he can convert Paul, he can convert Putin.

3...
Okay, let's think about #1 and 2, Gary.

As for #1, let's assume God has a moral duty to kill Putin...maybe it has to be "peaceful" and "in his sleep," too, so we avoid unnecessary suffering, even for Putin. Is it just Putin, or is it the various seconds-in-command and potential supplanters that will takeover his role when he's gone? And should God have done the same with, say, Mao (who was, beyond question, worse than Putin) or Stalin or Hitler (both worse than Putin)? And how about Caesar, Napoleon, Charlemagne, Saladin, Gorbechev, Nixon, Kennedy...how far do we go with this policy of eliminating these sorts of people? How long is the list?

And as for #2, should God force Putin to believe in Him, or would it be enough if He made it perfectly possible and reasonable...maybe even emotionally-compelling...for Putin to choose to believe in Him, but left the final decision up to Putin?
If God was willing to have a great flood to kill however many people for lust, homosexuality and other non homicidal crimes, then I would think putting an end to some of history's biggest homicidal maniacs might be warranted.
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Immanuel Can
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Re: Ukraine Crisis

Post by Immanuel Can »

Gary Childress wrote: Tue Sep 27, 2022 6:19 pm
Immanuel Can wrote: Tue Sep 27, 2022 4:25 pm
Gary Childress wrote: Tue Sep 27, 2022 10:58 am 1. Have Putin die peacefully in his sleep. That might give the Russian people an out to end the war.

2. Send Jesus to do to Putin what he did to Paul. If he can convert Paul, he can convert Putin.

3...
Okay, let's think about #1 and 2, Gary.

As for #1, let's assume God has a moral duty to kill Putin...maybe it has to be "peaceful" and "in his sleep," too, so we avoid unnecessary suffering, even for Putin. Is it just Putin, or is it the various seconds-in-command and potential supplanters that will takeover his role when he's gone? And should God have done the same with, say, Mao (who was, beyond question, worse than Putin) or Stalin or Hitler (both worse than Putin)? And how about Caesar, Napoleon, Charlemagne, Saladin, Gorbechev, Nixon, Kennedy...how far do we go with this policy of eliminating these sorts of people? How long is the list?

And as for #2, should God force Putin to believe in Him, or would it be enough if He made it perfectly possible and reasonable...maybe even emotionally-compelling...for Putin to choose to believe in Him, but left the final decision up to Putin?
If God was willing to have a great flood to kill however many people for lust, homosexuality and other non homicidal crimes, then I would think putting an end to some of history's biggest homicidal maniacs might be warranted.
Okay...so we can agree that the "homicidal maniacs" deserve stopping. Death, in sleep, painless.

But does one have to be a "homicidal maniac" before we would expect that a just God should stop them? What about rapists and child molestors: their crimes aren't genuinely "homicidal." Should God do anything about them?

What about, say, the bankers who bankrupted so many people during the Fanny Mae-Freddie Mac thing, and then took government bailouts and made themselves rich? Should they have been allowed to do that, or should God have stopped them, too? How about the owners of credit card companies, whose usury bankrupts and immiserates so many? Would a just God stop them, too?

How about the racists, the propagandists, the covetous, the greedy, or the gossips? They are all capable of significant, if not "homicidal" evil. If God is really just, should he do something to them, as well?

What about the famed 1% of the rich, or 10% of the world's rich (including us), who hoard their wealth to their own benefit, while others go hungry? Should a just God do something about that? And what about the lazy, the cruel and the dishonest...

Help me see where the line should be here, Gary. God is supposed to be just. At what point should His line be drawn, so that the genuinely evil are prevented?
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Re: Ukraine Crisis

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iambiguous wrote: Mon Sep 26, 2022 8:29 pm Specifics, eh?

Okay, an omniscient Christian God knows of the terrible, terrible suffering that has been inflicted upon millions and millions of men, women and children as a result of wars down through the ages.
Immanuel Can wrote: Mon Sep 26, 2022 8:41 pm So "wars"? "Wars" are God's fault, are they? No human involvement there?
Humans are involved, sure. But humans are neither omniscient nor omnipotent.

Note to the humans reading this:

If you were omnipotent and had the power to stop Putin in Ukraine, to end the terrible suffering -- https://central.asia-news.com/en_GB/art ... feature-01 -- of countless tens of thousands or truly innocent men, women and children, would you do it? If you knew someone who had this power and refused to use it, would this or would this not really piss you off?
Immanuel Can wrote: Mon Sep 26, 2022 8:41 pm That makes no difference. They could be knowledgeable or ignorant, powerful or only powerful in a limted way, and the problem would be identical.
How truly ridiculous -- stupid? -- do you have to be to insist that the Christian God and mere mortals here on planet Earth are in an identical position in regard to the horrors unfolding in Ukraine? God sees all there, God is powerful enough to end the terrible suffering in a heartbeat. We're neither one.
Immanuel Can wrote: Mon Sep 26, 2022 8:41 pm The question is, do you think human beings can have any say about what happens to them, or is that exclusively something you blame on God?
Yes, but some mere mortals, in lacking omniscience, say the war is rational and just, while others insist it is irrational and unjust. And both sincerely belief that they are right. But that's down here. "Up there" on Judgment Day is when God weighs in on what sends you up or what sends you down. In the end, it always comes down to God's Judgment...right?
Immanuel Can wrote: Mon Sep 26, 2022 8:41 pm No doubt. But let's think about that.

Maybe you can describe exactly how He'd do that. Let's play that out, and see how you think it would go.

Man wants to go to war. God's going to stop it.

How? What do you want Him to do?
Huh?

Omnipotent: (of a deity) having unlimited power; able to do anything

How would any mere mortal describe how God would do it? That he could do it but does not need be as far as we go. After all, why do you suppose Rabbi Harold Kushner wrote a best seller suggesting that human pain and suffering continues precisely because the God of Abraham is indeed loving just and merciful, is indeed omniscient...just not omnipotent.
Immanuel Can wrote: Mon Sep 26, 2022 8:41 pm It's a very reasonable question. You are implying God is derelict in some aspect of what he "should have done," so to speak. It's only fair you tell us what you think he should have done, in detail.
How would "I", fractured and fragmented in regard to conflicting goods of this sort, even begin to tell an omniscient God what He should do?!!

Do you even think through your points at all?
Immanuel Can wrote: Mon Sep 26, 2022 8:41 pm If you didn't know, you could never accuse Him of having failed to have done it.
Again, how could I possibly know this when, from my frame of mind, what I do think I know of the Ukrainian conflict is derived existentially from dasein. Same as you. That's the part that revolves around the fact that, unlike the Christian God, we are not omniscient.

Really, really think about that okay?
Some men want to go to war. Especially those who own and operate the military industrial complex. What, do you think the ghastly weapon systems employed by Putin and sent to Ukraine by Biden and NATO governments grow on trees? Do you think the arms manufactures just donated these weapons to Zelenskyy?

And what of those Christians who are trying to end the conflict? Shouldn't they be thinking to themselves, "if God wanted the war to end, He would end it. He doesn't so maybe I should do what I can to sustain it myself."
Immanuel Can wrote: Mon Sep 26, 2022 8:41 pm Right. So exactly what would a "good" God, in your estimation, do in order to prevent that?
Well, this is only a particular political prejudice of mine derived existentially from dasein, but He could frown of those who profit from the terrible suffering that He refuses to end in Ukraine. He could end the war so that they are no longer able to.






Note to others:

Here it comes...

"You refuse to DEFINE dasein so anything that you have to say about it is irrelevant."

Also, he is back to "snipping" again, isn't he? Why do you suppose he does that? 8)
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Re: Ukraine Crisis

Post by iambiguous »

henry quirk wrote: Tue Sep 27, 2022 1:55 pm
So, no, If I were omnipotent and had the power to stop Putin in Ukraine, to end the terrible suffering of countless tens of thousands or truly innocent men, women and children, I wouldn't do it, not if I spent five friggin' minutes thinkin' about the ultimate consequences.
Huh?

For IC's Christian God, the ultimate consequences are whatever the fuck He wants them to be. That's what being omnipotent means. In the interim, however, Christians still get to insist that this God who does nothing to stop all wars period among His flocks of sheep down here is "loving, just and merciful". Why? Because His ways are ultimately "mysterious".

But what of henry's God?

How "mysterious" are they?

After all, He provided mere mortals with the free will to "follow the dictates of Reason and Nature". On the other hand, some mere mortals think that means justifying Putin's invasion, while others insist it means quite the opposite. Many in Russia, after all, are pissed off at him not for invading but for not winning the damn thing in a few days.

While for others still, they "follow the dictates of Reason and Nature" all the way to the bank. Win or lose, they still profit as arms manufacturers. Those who manufacture bazookas for example.

But here's our very own fulminating fanatic objectivist henry quirk insisting that if he did have the power to end the war there -- all wars? -- he wouldn't. The terrible suffering would just drag on -- all the way to a nuclear war? -- while His God continues the abandonment of His own Creation.

I mean how pathetic is that?

At least with IC's Christian God, you can argue as Rabbi Kushner did.
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Re: Ukraine Crisis

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Your questions...
iambiguous wrote: Tue Sep 27, 2022 1:53 am*If you were omnipotent and had the power to stop Putin in Ukraine, to end the terrible suffering of countless tens of thousands or truly innocent men, women and children, would you do it?

**If you knew someone who had this power and refused to use it, would this or would this not really piss you off?
My answers...
henry quirk wrote: Tue Sep 27, 2022 1:55 pm*I've thought about this (it's a simple variation of the old sci fi chestnut if you could go back in time and end Hitler before he did his thing, would you?). First impulse -- with Hitler or Putin -- is to say hell yes I would!. But, if you think about it...

Keep in mind: we're not talkin' about a drug-addled wastrel waylayin' someone in a parkin' lot. At the moment, Putin is a pivotal figure. His actions, or absence, (would) affect the whole of the world. For example: the space left open by an ended Putin might very well get filled by someone worse than him.

So, end that one too, Henry might be the response. Or arrange things so someone better takes Putin's place, or, just step and do it yourself, omnipotent Quirk: run the world.

See how it goes? God, creatin' free wills with everything bein' a free will entails, interposin' Himself when things get dicey, can only lead to greater, more frequent, interposings. Free wills are negated. Men are rendered meat machines.

So, no, If I were omnipotent and had the power to stop Putin in Ukraine, to end the terrible suffering of countless tens of thousands or truly innocent men, women and children, I wouldn't do it, not if I spent five friggin' minutes thinkin' about the ultimate consequences.
henry quirk wrote: Tue Sep 27, 2022 1:55 pm**It would piss me off if I were short-sighted and didn't value bein' a free will.
Your response...
iambiguous wrote: Tue Sep 27, 2022 8:51 pm...here's our very own fulminating fanatic objectivist henry quirk insisting that if he did have the power to end the war there -- all wars? -- he wouldn't.

I mean how pathetic is that?
Great analysis, nice refutation... 👎
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