Ukraine Crisis

How should society be organised, if at all?

Moderators: AMod, iMod

Gary Childress
Posts: 8117
Joined: Sun Sep 25, 2011 3:08 pm
Location: Retirement Home for foolosophers

Re: Ukraine Crisis

Post by Gary Childress »

popeye1945 wrote: Wed Feb 08, 2023 1:29 am
Gary Childress wrote: Wed Feb 08, 2023 1:12 am
popeye1945 wrote: Wed Feb 08, 2023 1:05 am

Precisely, America is invading the security space of Russia what if Russia set up military bases in Canada on its borders. You have a blind spot when it comes to America. Do you believe an individual has the right to defend themselves in the face of aggression, for Christ's sake America is aggression. Our dialogue seems an act of futility, which seems to be the general case around this thing; to bad, it may mean our demise.
OK. So you apparently believe preemptively invading other countries for security reasons is justified under "special circumstances"? Do you think Israel was justified to invade Gaza, the US to invade Cuba? I don't.
I already told you, America passed legislation during the younger Bush administration for preemptive strikes not for what another country is doing, but for what they might do, or what they have a capacity to do. Is the fact the America has forty military bases with nuclear weapons surrounding China not aggression? It is my understanding that Israel is behaving in a fascist manner in this regard and keep in mind that the world community is against the continuation of the embargo against Cuba all but, the United States and Israel; they are bed fellows and might makes right.
Might does not make right and bad legislation is bad legislation. Again, you lack any principled stand on this. If you want peace then take away the tools of fearmongers. Take away their ability to justify what is not justifiable and you lay something that can be universalized and upheld. Otherwise, you're just going to swamp yourself with special pleas by anyone and everyone who wants to justify starting a war. Draw a sensible line and stand by it.
popeye1945
Posts: 2130
Joined: Sun Sep 12, 2021 2:12 am

Re: Ukraine Crisis

Post by popeye1945 »

Gary Childress wrote: Wed Feb 08, 2023 1:35 am
popeye1945 wrote: Wed Feb 08, 2023 1:29 am
Gary Childress wrote: Wed Feb 08, 2023 1:12 am

OK. So you apparently believe preemptively invading other countries for security reasons is justified under "special circumstances"? Do you think Israel was justified to invade Gaza, the US to invade Cuba? I don't.
I already told you, America passed legislation during the younger Bush administration for preemptive strikes not for what another country is doing, but for what they might do, or what they have a capacity to do. Is the fact the America has forty military bases with nuclear weapons surrounding China not aggression? It is my understanding that Israel is behaving in a fascist manner in this regard and keep in mind that the world community is against the continuation of the embargo against Cuba all but, the United States and Israel; they are bed fellows and might makes right.
Might does not make right and bad legislation is bad legislation. Again, you lack any principled stand on this. If you want peace then take away the tools of fearmongers. Take away their ability to justify what is not justifiable and you lay something that can be universalized and upheld. Otherwise, you're just going to swamp yourself with special pleas by anyone and everyone who wants to justify starting a war. Draw a sensible line and stand by it.
So, you think this war is between Ukraine and Russia-- yes? Well, we are not even in the same ballpark and if you continue in this belief discussion can go nowhere. According to your understanding was the Vietnam war between the north and south?
Last edited by popeye1945 on Wed Feb 08, 2023 5:16 am, edited 1 time in total.
Gary Childress
Posts: 8117
Joined: Sun Sep 25, 2011 3:08 pm
Location: Retirement Home for foolosophers

Re: Ukraine Crisis

Post by Gary Childress »

popeye1945 wrote: Wed Feb 08, 2023 5:07 am
Gary Childress wrote: Wed Feb 08, 2023 1:35 am
popeye1945 wrote: Wed Feb 08, 2023 1:29 am

I already told you, America passed legislation during the younger Bush administration for preemptive strikes not for what another country is doing, but for what they might do, or what they have a capacity to do. Is the fact the America has forty military bases with nuclear weapons surrounding China not aggression? It is my understanding that Israel is behaving in a fascist manner in this regard and keep in mind that the world community is against the continuation of the embargo against Cuba all but, the United States and Israel; they are bed fellows and might makes right.
Might does not make right and bad legislation is bad legislation. Again, you lack any principled stand on this. If you want peace then take away the tools of fearmongers. Take away their ability to justify what is not justifiable and you lay something that can be universalized and upheld. Otherwise, you're just going to swamp yourself with special pleas by anyone and everyone who wants to justify starting a war. Draw a sensible line and stand by it.
So, you think this war is between Ukraine and Russia-- yes? Well, we are not even in the same ballpark and if you continue in this belief discussion can go nowhere.
Have it your way. If you don't want to stand for anything worth standing for, that's up to you. I've pointed out what should be obvious. :|
popeye1945
Posts: 2130
Joined: Sun Sep 12, 2021 2:12 am

Re: Ukraine Crisis

Post by popeye1945 »

Gary Childress wrote: Wed Feb 08, 2023 5:09 am
popeye1945 wrote: Wed Feb 08, 2023 5:07 am
Gary Childress wrote: Wed Feb 08, 2023 1:35 am

Might does not make right and bad legislation is bad legislation. Again, you lack any principled stand on this. If you want peace then take away the tools of fearmongers. Take away their ability to justify what is not justifiable and you lay something that can be universalized and upheld. Otherwise, you're just going to swamp yourself with special pleas by anyone and everyone who wants to justify starting a war. Draw a sensible line and stand by it.
So, you think this war is between Ukraine and Russia-- yes? Well, we are not even in the same ballpark and if you continue in this belief discussion can go nowhere.
Have it your way. If you don't want to stand for anything worth standing for, that's up to you. I've pointed out what should be obvious. :|
Does that mean you think the war is between Ukraine and Russia, and the Vietnam war was between the north and the south? It is an extremely important distinction to make here. Have the decency to answer the question.
Gary Childress
Posts: 8117
Joined: Sun Sep 25, 2011 3:08 pm
Location: Retirement Home for foolosophers

Re: Ukraine Crisis

Post by Gary Childress »

popeye1945 wrote: Wed Feb 08, 2023 5:21 am
Gary Childress wrote: Wed Feb 08, 2023 5:09 am
popeye1945 wrote: Wed Feb 08, 2023 5:07 am

So, you think this war is between Ukraine and Russia-- yes? Well, we are not even in the same ballpark and if you continue in this belief discussion can go nowhere.
Have it your way. If you don't want to stand for anything worth standing for, that's up to you. I've pointed out what should be obvious. :|
Does that mean you think the war is between Ukraine and Russia, and the Vietnam war was between the north and the south? It is an extremely important distinction to make here.
Why do you think that's an important distinction? I would say Russia was clearly more justified in helping N. Vietnam than the US was justified in personally taking a hand in destroying it. By the same Token, the US is clearly more justified in helping Ukraine than Russia is justified in personally attacking it. You're grasping at straws for what reason I don't know. I appreciate that you're critical of horrendous foreign policy on the part of the US during much of the cold war and after but you have some kind of unnatural fixation on supporting Russia over the US in the Ukraine conflict. I'm curious why that is? Do you have a personal stake in it somewhere?
popeye1945
Posts: 2130
Joined: Sun Sep 12, 2021 2:12 am

Re: Ukraine Crisis

Post by popeye1945 »

Gary Childress wrote: Wed Feb 08, 2023 5:34 am
popeye1945 wrote: Wed Feb 08, 2023 5:21 am
Gary Childress wrote: Wed Feb 08, 2023 5:09 am

Have it your way. If you don't want to stand for anything worth standing for, that's up to you. I've pointed out what should be obvious. :|
Does that mean you think the war is between Ukraine and Russia, and the Vietnam war was between the north and the south? It is an extremely important distinction to make here.
Why do you think that's an important distinction? I would say Russia was clearly more justified in helping N. Vietnam than the US was justified in personally taking a hand in destroying it. By the same Token, the US is clearly more justified in helping Ukraine than Russia is justified in personally attacking it. You're grasping at straws for what reason I don't know. I appreciate that you're critical of horrendous foreign policy on the part of the US during much of the cold war and after but you have some kind of unnatural fixation on supporting Russia over the US in the Ukraine conflict. I'm curious why that is? Do you have a personal stake in it somewhere?
South Vietnamese were ponds just a Ukrainians are ponds, there would be no war but for the United States. You've soft-shoed around the question, was the Vietnam war between the north and the south, and is the Ukrainian war between Ukraine and Russia? Was the French war on the Vietnamese people between just the French and Vietnamese even though eighty percent of the war's cost came from America?
Gary Childress
Posts: 8117
Joined: Sun Sep 25, 2011 3:08 pm
Location: Retirement Home for foolosophers

Re: Ukraine Crisis

Post by Gary Childress »

popeye1945 wrote: Wed Feb 08, 2023 7:00 am
Gary Childress wrote: Wed Feb 08, 2023 5:34 am
popeye1945 wrote: Wed Feb 08, 2023 5:21 am

Does that mean you think the war is between Ukraine and Russia, and the Vietnam war was between the north and the south? It is an extremely important distinction to make here.
Why do you think that's an important distinction? I would say Russia was clearly more justified in helping N. Vietnam than the US was justified in personally taking a hand in destroying it. By the same Token, the US is clearly more justified in helping Ukraine than Russia is justified in personally attacking it. You're grasping at straws for what reason I don't know. I appreciate that you're critical of horrendous foreign policy on the part of the US during much of the cold war and after but you have some kind of unnatural fixation on supporting Russia over the US in the Ukraine conflict. I'm curious why that is? Do you have a personal stake in it somewhere?
South Vietnamese were ponds just a Ukrainians are ponds, there would be no war but for the United States. You've soft-shoed around the question, was the Vietnam war between the north and the south, and is the Ukrainian war between Ukraine and Russia? Was the French war on the Vietnamese people between just the French and Vietnamese even though eighty percent of the war's cost came from America?
OK. So is it your take on this that this is a civil war between Russians? I suppose that might be a fair take on it. I mean, Russia gobbling up Ukraine would basically be Russia exerting its superior military might against its other half in order to unite once again behind a common flag for reasons of protecting itself from American military might. I guess we end up with a bipolar world once again. Fallout bunkers for the rich. Shakey nerves for the rest. Or perhaps it will be America's demise and the world marches to the drum of Russia and China? Or are Russia and China going to save us all from America and give us a tenureship of peace and stability?
popeye1945
Posts: 2130
Joined: Sun Sep 12, 2021 2:12 am

Re: Ukraine Crisis

Post by popeye1945 »

Gary Childress wrote: Wed Feb 08, 2023 12:24 pm
popeye1945 wrote: Wed Feb 08, 2023 7:00 am
Gary Childress wrote: Wed Feb 08, 2023 5:34 am

Why do you think that's an important distinction? I would say Russia was clearly more justified in helping N. Vietnam than the US was justified in personally taking a hand in destroying it. By the same Token, the US is clearly more justified in helping Ukraine than Russia is justified in personally attacking it. You're grasping at straws for what reason I don't know. I appreciate that you're critical of horrendous foreign policy on the part of the US during much of the cold war and after but you have some kind of unnatural fixation on supporting Russia over the US in the Ukraine conflict. I'm curious why that is? Do you have a personal stake in it somewhere?
South Vietnamese were ponds just a Ukrainians are ponds, there would be no war but for the United States. You've soft-shoed around the question, was the Vietnam war between the north and the south, and is the Ukrainian war between Ukraine and Russia? Was the French war on the Vietnamese people between just the French and Vietnamese even though eighty percent of the war's cost came from America?
OK. So is it your take on this that this is a civil war between Russians? I suppose that might be a fair take on it. I mean, Russia gobbling up Ukraine would basically be Russia exerting its superior military might against its other half in order to unite once again behind a common flag for reasons of protecting itself from American military might. I guess we end up with a bipolar world once again. Fallout bunkers for the rich. Shakey nerves for the rest. Or perhaps it will be America's demise and the world marches to the drum of Russia and China? Or are Russia and China going to save us all from America and give us a tenure ship of peace and stability?
Either you're having difficulty understanding me or you're dodging the question, but here goes. It is not a civil war it is a war between Russia and the United States, with the United States the aggressor. I feel you are getting a bit silly and wonder if it is not disparate avoidance to the question presented. You do see this war as between Ukraine and Russia- yes? Then you must also feel that the Vietnam war was between the north and the south; and nobody is pulling the strings and it is not a puppet show. You're also missing the point that Russia, China, India, the Middle East and Southeast Asian as well as many other countries do not wish to be governed by the United States. Try to look below the surface of things.
Gary Childress
Posts: 8117
Joined: Sun Sep 25, 2011 3:08 pm
Location: Retirement Home for foolosophers

Re: Ukraine Crisis

Post by Gary Childress »

popeye1945 wrote: Wed Feb 08, 2023 2:54 pm
Gary Childress wrote: Wed Feb 08, 2023 12:24 pm
popeye1945 wrote: Wed Feb 08, 2023 7:00 am

South Vietnamese were ponds just a Ukrainians are ponds, there would be no war but for the United States. You've soft-shoed around the question, was the Vietnam war between the north and the south, and is the Ukrainian war between Ukraine and Russia? Was the French war on the Vietnamese people between just the French and Vietnamese even though eighty percent of the war's cost came from America?
OK. So is it your take on this that this is a civil war between Russians? I suppose that might be a fair take on it. I mean, Russia gobbling up Ukraine would basically be Russia exerting its superior military might against its other half in order to unite once again behind a common flag for reasons of protecting itself from American military might. I guess we end up with a bipolar world once again. Fallout bunkers for the rich. Shakey nerves for the rest. Or perhaps it will be America's demise and the world marches to the drum of Russia and China? Or are Russia and China going to save us all from America and give us a tenure ship of peace and stability?
Either you're having difficulty understanding me or you're dodging the question, but here goes. It is not a civil war it is a war between Russia and the United States, with the United States the aggressor. I feel you are getting a bit silly and wonder if it is not disparate avoidance to the question presented. You do see this war as between Ukraine and Russia- yes? Then you must also feel that the Vietnam war was between the north and the south; and nobody is pulling the strings and it is not a puppet show. You're also missing the point that Russia, China, India, the Middle East and Southeast Asian as well as many other countries do not wish to be governed by the United States. Try to look below the surface of things.
I thought I was charitably interpreting your position. Apparently not. So apparently the US is still the "aggressor" for helping Ukraine respond to the Russian attack. Was the Soviet Union likewise an "aggressor" for supplying North Vietnam with arms to defeat the South? I think you're doing a lot of special pleading. If it's not a civil war then what business is it of Russia what alliances or treaties Ukraine enters? I was charitably giving you the benefit of a stronger position. I mean, if you want to say that Ukraine and Russia are like North and South Vietnam, then it seems to me that the US would be ultimately interfering in a civil war. If not, then I don't see how you have a principled position.
popeye1945
Posts: 2130
Joined: Sun Sep 12, 2021 2:12 am

Re: Ukraine Crisis

Post by popeye1945 »

Gary Childress wrote: Thu Feb 09, 2023 3:01 am
popeye1945 wrote: Wed Feb 08, 2023 2:54 pm
Gary Childress wrote: Wed Feb 08, 2023 12:24 pm

OK. So is it your take on this that this is a civil war between Russians? I suppose that might be a fair take on it. I mean, Russia gobbling up Ukraine would basically be Russia exerting its superior military might against its other half in order to unite once again behind a common flag for reasons of protecting itself from American military might. I guess we end up with a bipolar world once again. Fallout bunkers for the rich. Shakey nerves for the rest. Or perhaps it will be America's demise and the world marches to the drum of Russia and China? Or are Russia and China going to save us all from America and give us a tenure ship of peace and stability?
Either you're having difficulty understanding me or you're dodging the question, but here goes. It is not a civil war it is a war between Russia and the United States, with the United States the aggressor. I feel you are getting a bit silly and wonder if it is not disparate avoidance to the question presented. You do see this war as between Ukraine and Russia- yes? Then you must also feel that the Vietnam war was between the north and the south; and nobody is pulling the strings and it is not a puppet show. You're also missing the point that Russia, China, India, the Middle East and Southeast Asian as well as many other countries do not wish to be governed by the United States. Try to look below the surface of things.
I thought I was charitably interpreting your position. Apparently not. So apparently the US is still the "aggressor" for helping Ukraine respond to the Russian attack. Was the Soviet Union likewise an "aggressor" for supplying North Vietnam with arms to defeat the South? I think you're doing a lot of special pleading. If it's not a civil war then what business is it of Russia what alliances or treaties Ukraine enters? I was charitably giving you the benefit of a stronger position. I mean, if you want to say that Ukraine and Russia are like North and South Vietnam, then it seems to me that the US would be ultimately interfering in a civil war. If not, then I don't see how you have a principled position.
Perhaps you could tell me why when Russia requested membership in NATO it was denied, you still don't get it, America wants war, its goal is world domination. In Vietnam America was making war on the Vietnamese through its French puppet, I've already told you that America was financing that war of re-colonization by the French. Perhaps you approve of colonization/slavery as long as it's of an American brand of slavery. Perhaps you could also explain to me why after the Vietnamese defeated the French at Diem Biem Phou and the international community agreed that free elections were to be held in Vietnam, why America did not allow that to happen but began its own war on the Vietnamese people. As far as America intervening in a civil war in Vietnam there was no civil war to intervene in, there was only the failure of the French to re-enslave the Vietnamese people after World War two. You need to get over seeing America as a pillar of virtue; it is far from that; it is a blight upon the world. Good grief look at what America did in Vietnam; it was genocide a crime against humanity, utterly devoid of all humanity.
popeye1945
Posts: 2130
Joined: Sun Sep 12, 2021 2:12 am

Re: Ukraine Crisis

Post by popeye1945 »

Dubious,

State your case, we can all submit endless links as homework for our fellows, it is a competition I do not wish to engage in. Again, tell us what you think.
Gary Childress
Posts: 8117
Joined: Sun Sep 25, 2011 3:08 pm
Location: Retirement Home for foolosophers

Re: Ukraine Crisis

Post by Gary Childress »

popeye1945 wrote: Thu Feb 09, 2023 11:17 pm
Dubious,

State your case, we can all submit endless links as homework for our fellows, it is a competition I do not wish to engage in. Again, tell us what you think.
Looks like your BS has perhaps been debunked. Accept it and move on or show its falsity. Or do you have some vested interest in seeing Russia successfully annex Ukraine?
popeye1945
Posts: 2130
Joined: Sun Sep 12, 2021 2:12 am

Re: Ukraine Crisis

Post by popeye1945 »

Gary Childress wrote: Fri Feb 10, 2023 12:37 am
popeye1945 wrote: Thu Feb 09, 2023 11:17 pm
Dubious,

State your case, we can all submit endless links as homework for our fellows, it is a competition I do not wish to engage in. Again, tell us what you think.
Looks like your BS has perhaps been debunked. Accept it and move on or show its falsity. Or do you have some vested interest in seeing Russia successfully annex Ukraine?

Nothing to say for yourself!!---lol!! I could send you links all day long. Yeah, we are not going anywhere here, too bad, that is the general situation, that might just end up in a great mushroom cloud. Take Care!!
Gary Childress
Posts: 8117
Joined: Sun Sep 25, 2011 3:08 pm
Location: Retirement Home for foolosophers

Re: Ukraine Crisis

Post by Gary Childress »

popeye1945 wrote: Fri Feb 10, 2023 1:08 am
Gary Childress wrote: Fri Feb 10, 2023 12:37 am
popeye1945 wrote: Thu Feb 09, 2023 11:17 pm

Dubious,

State your case, we can all submit endless links as homework for our fellows, it is a competition I do not wish to engage in. Again, tell us what you think.
Looks like your BS has perhaps been debunked. Accept it and move on or show its falsity. Or do you have some vested interest in seeing Russia successfully annex Ukraine?

Nothing to say for yourself!!---lol!! I could send you links all day long.
Then send a link that debunks the claims made in the ones dubious provided. Otherwise, I suspect you have issues. You're fixated on an argument at all costs that doesn't appear to be worth fixating on. It's been debunked. Accept that you're wrong or show that you are not. TBH, I hope you're a Russian Internet troll spreading propaganda and not some idiot living outside Russia who is more interested in personal success in winning an argument than in understanding right and wrong. You realize Russia invading Ukraine, right? You realize two wrongs don't make a right, correct? You realize diverting attention away from an injustice performed by one by using a past injustice of another is an ad hominem or red herring, correct? Unless this can be shown to be a civil war or something (certainly an arguable case), then it seems pretty clear to me that Russia is in the wrong.

So do yourself a favor and show that the post by Dubious possesses false claims, or tell me why this should be considered a justifiable civil war.
Last edited by Gary Childress on Fri Feb 10, 2023 1:35 am, edited 2 times in total.
Post Reply