The Great Reset

How should society be organised, if at all?

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Gary Childress
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Re: The Great Reset

Post by Gary Childress »

Immanuel Can wrote: Tue Feb 08, 2022 4:28 am
Gary Childress wrote: Tue Feb 08, 2022 2:18 am Socialism is little more than a state of affairs whereby society is democratic and all its members are equal, not just "big government".
Would that that were true. But of course, it's not. Socialism requires government to own the means of production, and thus also to take direct, regulatory control of all aspects of civic and personal life. So it automatically means bloated and increasingly bloated bureaucracy. And because it's opposed to anything that makes people "unequal," it's opposed to personal responsibility, personal achievement and quality. And, of course, economically, it's a disaster: because it requires copious amounts of money, but produces no capital.

It has nothing whatsoever to do with "democracy," because equality of opportunity, rather than equality of outcome, is the democratic option. If you opt for equality of outcome, it means the use of force and compulsion are required. To create equality of outcome, one has to prevent success, achievement, distinction, hierarchy and so on, and drive everything down to the lowest common denominator.
So what you are saying is that you would rather fall on the side of private ownership of economic entities and not democracy and equality.
False dichotomy, Gary.

Democracy and equality of opportunity are not related to Socialism. Big-government totalitarianism, and equality of outcome are. So yes, I would most certainly rather lean to the side of small government, equality of opportunity, non-racism, private property, free speech, and so on. Those are all very good things...things that going too far toward laissez-faire capitalism can ruin, of course; but things which Socialism is guaranteed not even to permit.
All I'm saying is that you have a different definition of "socialism" than what thinkers like Noam Chomsky, Rosa Luxemburg and other classic leftist political thinkers have. Few serious intellectual proponents of socialism would say when they talk of socialism they are referring to "big government and totalitarianism. They're referring to a society where there's equality and democracy for its members. How to get there is a question that is difficult for socialists to agree on.

As far as socialism requiring government, that is not necessarily the case. There are anarcho-socialists who believe that the way to socialism is the elimination of all hierarchy in society. It's really a matter of definitions and your definitions just aren't the same as theirs and you're always going to talk past one another.
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Immanuel Can
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Re: The Great Reset

Post by Immanuel Can »

Gary Childress wrote: Tue Feb 08, 2022 5:44 am Few serious intellectual proponents of socialism would say when they talk of socialism they are referring to "big government and totalitarianism.
Of course not. They use words like "democracy" and "equality," but never really explain what they mean by them. The very last thing they'll ever do is refer to Socialism's dismal historical record, even though it has inevitably involved both big government and totalitarianism.

They're "selling," not informing people. They're not going to unveil Socialism's ugly underbelly.

Just read history, instead. Socialism cannot stand on its record...anywhere.
promethean75
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Re: The Great Reset

Post by promethean75 »

Work Gary! You got em on the ropes man! And when he starts waving the Bible around, foaming at the mouth, mumbling in tongues, and calling totalitarian dictators 'marxists', you just keep repeating:

THE POWER OF MARX COMPELS YOU
THE POWER OF MARX COMPELS YOU
THE POWER OF MARX COMPELS YOU
promethean75
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Re: The Great Reset

Post by promethean75 »

Yeah G reading over it again everything's pretty much good, but you gotta drop the equality stuff because Marx and Engels never said anything like that. That's one of those caricatures of Marxism produced by the right to dissuade people away from it; diminish any incentive by fabricating a lie that people would not be rewarded by their efforts and unique talents (garbage men make as much a brain surgeons, right?), make it sound like an impossible utopian pipe dream and nobody will buy it. And if nobody buys it, no worker revolution. And if no worker revolution, the parasites and their cheerleaders (Hannitys, Limbaughs, Becks, etc.) get to keep their unearned wealth and livelihood.

In your research you'll begin to see just how distorted Marxism has been made to appear by master right-wing propagandists for centuries. The memes are almost unstoppable.

Little more about that equality crap:

https://youtu.be/pzQZ_NDEzVo

https://youtu.be/SIhIM-jge2c

p.s. apologies for the stupid stick analogy in that first one, but the matter is so dumb it literally has to be spoon fed to the imbeciles on the right.
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Immanuel Can
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Re: The Great Reset

Post by Immanuel Can »

promethean75 wrote: Tue Feb 08, 2022 8:46 am Work Gary! THE POWER OF MARX COMPELS YOU
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Gary Childress
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Re: The Great Reset

Post by Gary Childress »

promethean75 wrote: Tue Feb 08, 2022 10:26 am Yeah G reading over it again everything's pretty much good, but you gotta drop the equality stuff because Marx and Engels never said anything like that. That's one of those caricatures of Marxism produced by the right to dissuade people away from it; diminish any incentive by fabricating a lie that people would not be rewarded by their efforts and unique talents (garbage men make as much a brain surgeons, right?), make it sound like an impossible utopian pipe dream and nobody will buy it. And if nobody buys it, no worker revolution. And if no worker revolution, the parasites and their cheerleaders (Hannitys, Limbaughs, Becks, etc.) get to keep their unearned wealth and livelihood.

In your research you'll begin to see just how distorted Marxism has been made to appear by master right-wing propagandists for centuries. The memes are almost unstoppable.

Little more about that equality crap:

https://youtu.be/pzQZ_NDEzVo

https://youtu.be/SIhIM-jge2c

p.s. apologies for the stupid stick analogy in that first one, but the matter is so dumb it literally has to be spoon fed to the imbeciles on the right.
Yeah. I suppose Marx is right. Perfect equality is impossible. Probably only an imbecile like me would believe in it.

So if we dispense with the ideal of equality, then what would we end up with? I mean, when I think of the term, I usually think of equality of opportunity or equality before the law. I don't think anyone believes that everyone literally is or can be equal in all senses. I mean, laws and ideals are usually vague and unmeasurable. I can't think of any ideal that doesn't conflict with others or even itself sometimes. And just because something is impossible in reality doesn't mean we humans shouldn't strive to achieve something relatively close to it. If we dispensed with vague or unquantifiable terms, then it seems to me that we'd be dispensing with ideals like 'fairness', 'liberty', 'democracy' (even 'justice' itself), and every other ideal that is impossible in practice or impossible to quantify or measure, I don't know.

I don't know if it's worth noting that Bakunin famously disagreed with Marx on some things--as have others on the left. So I've had a difficult time idolizing Marx as the last word on things. I do think he was rightfully outraged by what he saw in his day in the treatment of the underclass. But I wonder if he really had all the best answers.
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Immanuel Can
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Re: The Great Reset

Post by Immanuel Can »

Gary Childress wrote: Wed Feb 09, 2022 6:33 am Yeah. I suppose Marx is right.
If he was right about anything, it was rare.
Perfect equality is impossible.
If you think about it, Gary, you'll realize that perfect equality isn't even remotely desirable. It's actually very bad. It can only be produced by violence, by forcing people who try to exceed or do something special or rise on their own creativity and effort to be deprived of any benefit of so doing; to have their rewards stripped and handed over to those who have done nothing at all.

That's totally unjust. And it kills creativity, excellence, achievement, aspiration and hope...which is precisely why Marxist places are so bloody awful.

But we have an experiment in the truth of this going on right before our eyes. It's in the contrast of North and South Korea. Same people, same history, same genetics, same location on the planet...everything the same. Only one is Marxist, and one is not. And look at the difference.

I wish everybody could see this video. I think you'll like it, Gary, because you're a sympathetic guy. Warning: it's very sad. But it's still things we all need to know. Anyway, it stars a very pretty, smart woman, so if nothing else, it's easy on the eyes. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1RrdxIqDmTA
So if we dispense with the ideal of equality, then what would we end up with?
Freedom. Responsibility. Opportunity. Hope.
I don't think anyone believes that everyone literally is or can be equal in all senses.
SJW types think they not only can, but must. And they don't care whom they have to harm to get it to come out that way.
If we dispensed with vague or unquantifiable terms, then it seems to me that we'd be dispensing with ideals like 'fairness', 'liberty', 'democracy' (even 'justice' itself), and every other ideal that is impossible in practice or impossible to quantify or measure, I don't know.
But there's nothing wrong with "equality," so long as we understand it as "equality of opportunity," not "forced equality of outcomes." It's a perfectly good word, and a perfectly good thing, if it's a product of opportunity and responsibility not force.

But you've hit on the core problem with "equality of outcome." It's that people are different. And they both choose and use their opportuntities differently, even if we give them all the same opportunities. That's why equality must be judged at the level of opportunity not of outcome; we have to leave people free to rise or fall as they choose to do. They have a right to attempt success, and to fail as well; because failure is often the most important thing that teaches us how to succeed.
I wonder if he really had all the best answers.
If he had, then we'd have to wonder why, in almost two centuries now, no human being has proved smart enough to figure out how to make his ideology work, and to produce anything but misery, poverty and death.
promethean75
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Re: The Great Reset

Post by promethean75 »

"Probably only an imbecile like me would believe in it."

Now you stop that, Gary! Self deprication is for christians, comedians and french existentialists (with the exception of Biggs, who is a Baltimorean).
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