Collective Corruption

How should society be organised, if at all?

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simplicity
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Re: Collective Corruption

Post by simplicity »

promethean75 wrote: Sun Dec 26, 2021 9:35 amThat dreaded question I hoped would never be asked, because the truth is, there will be no more real revolutions. Save for the occasional coup by some soft pseudo-leftist party in a small, half-wit country somewhere - which ends up fundamentally changing nothing - anything more would undoubtedly be a pathological mockery provided and sold to us by some capitalist who's captured the image on a t-shirt or in a movie....
Actually, revolutions are on-going and in a period as turbulent as the one we now find ourselves, there are a myriad of major ones out there now.

Capitalism will change [or disappear] when something better comes along. I've read a lot of economics but there isn't anybody who has a clue what might eventually replace it. It's much like transportation...we all know it's going to radically change in the future, but nobody knows exactly how [because the infinite steps leading up to such transformation (that control the process) are too far out]. The human mind is simply not capable of this type of understanding [or any for that matter].

Everything is changing all the time. Where you are correct is in your appreciation that true revolution is internal. Gain the skills necessary so you can most efficiently and effectively go with the change...moment by moment.
Skepdick
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Re: Collective Corruption

Post by Skepdick »

simplicity wrote: Sun Dec 26, 2021 9:57 pm So all the time, effort and treasure spent to influence people is for naught?
What does that have to do with my point?

You are influenced by everything and everyone you interact with hence control has no particular locus.
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RCSaunders
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Re: Collective Corruption

Post by RCSaunders »

simplicity wrote: Sat Dec 25, 2021 9:15 pm There are so many issues with collectivism that it might take until next Christmas to list and discuss them all, but perhaps the worst of the lot is the inherent corruption that defines every collective effort. After all, what is the purpose of a "collective" if it if not to pool resources and power to effect change...change that is only in-line with those who control the collective.

It has become quite popular [since the 1840's and Marx/Engels contribution to political economy] to criticize the only viable economic system that exists...capitalism. And considering the scope of a system as vast, there is certainly plenty to take issue with, but no more than any other system conjured up by the human mind. Paradoxes and disparities abound, but the main point is that this economic system has been able to propel the productivity of human beings beyond the stratosphere. Literally billions of people have been lifted out of abject poverty and now have the chance to live meaningful lives. Believe what you wish, people a century ago would not thought that this was possible [except the Utopians who always see the promised land just beyond the next massive tax increase].

If you study the capitalist system [leaving out the political non-sense], you will find a system that does several things incredibly well...allocation of resources, a democratic process deciding which products/services win or lose, and the creation of a surplus that has afforded many countries to construct infrastructure that is truly remarkable [ e.g., the American interstate highway system and the Japanese (and Chinese) bullet train systems].

The current economic problems we are having [that has been brewing for 100 years] finds its etiology almost exclusively with the corruption of the system [not the system itself]. As we stand in 2021, it is truly a miracle that the system can still operate considering the monkey wrenches politicians and the elite have thrown into the machinery of capitalist production. The introduction of full fiat currencies in the early 70's leading to the debasement and confiscation of wealth of the middle and lower classes should have been enough on its own to bring this system down, but the system has shown amazing resilience. Add in the corruption of nearly all markets [commodity and financial] and certainly you have a recipe for total disaster...and the piper must be paid [sooner or later].

It has always been my appreciation that when more than two adults gather, almost certainly trouble is on the horizon. The rise of collectivism once again is adding gasoline to a raging wildfire set by the very same forces. Even in it's nascent contemporary efforts, look at the mess that so-called progressives have brought to ordinary problems. Their inability to get beyond a single narrative condemns them to the failure that every collective has experienced. De-fund the police? Really? Could anything be more moronic? Is anybody surprised that crime has surged in the areas where politicians have bought into this lunacy?

The problem is corruption. The answer is transparency that comes with freedom and the dissemination of power. Further collectivization will only change the name in the box which indicates who is the beneficiary of the crimes against society. Apparently the Left believes it is their turn to help themselves to others' productivity [as a solution to the current corruption]. Interestingly, they might have gotten away with it but they are complete fools as anybody with an IQ over 50 can easily discern.

Collectivism should be about getting a group together to pick-up litter by the side of the road or organize a child's sporting event but never something as important as deciding how adults are the live and conduct their lives. This experiment has been tried over and over with the same disastrous result. Groups are not your friends. They want what you have and they can never obtain...human dignity that comes only from striking out on your own and facing life head-on.

Corruption is the enemy and collectivism breeds it like a blood ager Petri dish incubating at 98.6F.
There is no such form of government as capitalism.

Capitalism is an economic theory, not an ideology or social/political theory. There is not now and has never been a capitalist government.

All political systems are corrupt. To paraphrase Mark Twain, "if there is a government, and if that government is corrupt--but I repeat myself." No political system can correct corruption because every political system is corruption--a systematic attempt to use coercive force to further the ends of politicians.
promethean75
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Re: Collective Corruption

Post by promethean75 »

"All political systems are corrupt."

Perhaps, but attention should be given to the question of how to prevent it, or quickly rectify it, where and when it can't be prevented. To do this, you have to collapse the hierarchical structures upon which it is built and open up routes of direct control, for the governed.

While the economic and political models of monarchism and feudalism gave way to a more decentralized model of power with the inception of free market capitalism, history inadvertently replaced an old despotic mode of tyranny with another more subtle one. The royal family of tyrants who ruled the peasants and serfs as slaves to the land, became the capitalist parasites that ruled the modern working class as slaves to the wage. Different economic model, same bullshit.

As long as capitalism remains, governments that rule in countries that practice capitalism, will become corrupt in ways that can't be interfered with by the working classes who are ruled by that government. The solution is to make the working classes the government itself. I mean goddamn it can't be made any simpler than that, folks.

But again this wisdom belongs to the proletariat, not the bourgeoisie. This is not a solution or change in government that the bourgeoisie would want, since clearly it would jeopardize their privilege of living for free as parasites on the back of the working classes.
simplicity
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Re: Collective Corruption

Post by simplicity »

RCSaunders wrote: Mon Dec 27, 2021 2:33 am
There is no such form of government as capitalism.

Capitalism is an economic theory, not an ideology or social/political theory. There is not now and has never been a capitalist government.
Of course that is correct, but capitalism is an economic system glued together by laws [particularly property rights]** and therefore the two are joined at the hip...and is also why it was so easy to predict that the two forces would eventually combine into the present corporatism [or fascism, if you prefer] that dominates today. The Ministry of Truth has certainly revealed its ugly self for all to see in the form of social and other media.

**This is why capitalism does best in societies with the strongest traditions of legal enforcement [U.K., U.S., Canada, etc.]
RCSaunders wrote: Mon Dec 27, 2021 2:33 am All political systems are corrupt.
Yes, it's simply a matter of degree.
RCSaunders wrote: Mon Dec 27, 2021 2:33 am To paraphrase Mark Twain, "if there is a government, and if that government is corrupt--but I repeat myself." No political system can correct corruption because every political system is corruption--a systematic attempt to use coercive force to further the ends of politicians.
Yes, and this is why all thinking people should be philosophical anarchists, but just the same, there must be laws to control the mobs. I am sure you might agree that it would be for the betterment of most if there was just a little corruption as opposed to what we are experiencing today...a shitload.

Mark Twain is perhaps the most American person this country has yet brought forth. My favorite quote of his...

"Some of the worst things in my life never happened."

Does it get any more insightful than that?
simplicity
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Re: Collective Corruption

Post by simplicity »

promethean75 wrote: Mon Dec 27, 2021 4:46 pm "All political systems are corrupt."

Perhaps, but attention should be given to the question of how to prevent it, or quickly rectify it, where and when it can't be prevented. To do this, you have to collapse the hierarchical structures upon which it is built and open up routes of direct control, for the governed.
Corruption emanates from human nature. Although it can be attenuated, it can never be eliminated. There have ALWAYS been and will ALWAYS be hierarchies [and thank God for that]. There are people who do things a great deal better than others. That's why it's the captain who flies the plane.
promethean75 wrote: Mon Dec 27, 2021 4:46 pmWhile the economic and political models of monarchism and feudalism gave way to a more decentralized model of power with the inception of free market capitalism, history inadvertently replaced an old despotic mode of tyranny with another more subtle one. The royal family of tyrants who ruled the peasants and serfs as slaves to the land, became the capitalist parasites that ruled the modern working class as slaves to the wage. Different economic model, same bullshit.
Well, everything you enjoy today has been brought to you by all that bullshit.

Yes, history suggests that systems get better [on the whole], but you will always have a pecking order. And why shouldn't there be. People who are willing to do more should receive more. Otherwise, why do it? If you have been paying attention as you matured, you should have taken notice of how people seems to operate in groups [most (given their way) want to sit around and do nothing].
promethean75 wrote: Mon Dec 27, 2021 4:46 pmAs long as capitalism remains, governments that rule in countries that practice capitalism, will become corrupt in ways that can't be interfered with by the working classes who are ruled by that government. The solution is to make the working classes the government itself. I mean goddamn it can't be made any simpler than that, folks.
Great idea. Then we can all live happily ever after. You want the best people doing what they do best. That's pretty simple.
promethean75 wrote: Mon Dec 27, 2021 4:46 pmBut again this wisdom belongs to the proletariat, not the bourgeoisie. This is not a solution or change in government that the bourgeoisie would want, since clearly it would jeopardize their privilege of living for free as parasites on the back of the working classes.
You need to change your calendar from 1850 to 2021.

Look out the window, most people are complete morons [you believe in a social theory that only six other people still believed in after the fall of the USSR]. You want people like yourself deciding the future?
promethean75
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Re: Collective Corruption

Post by promethean75 »

"Of course that is correct, but capitalism is an economic system glued together by laws [particularly property rights]** and therefore the two are joined at the hip..."

Well eventually, yeah, but first the ruling aristocratic classes had to disenfranchise all the lower classes by kicking them off their land and force them to migrate to the cities so that they could labor for wages that equaled less than the value of what they produced, or risk being drawn and quartered by valiant knights on horseback.

Only then was a government propped up with the primary purpose of protecting the property of the wealthy after it was designed, produced and distributed by the working class.

""Some of the worst things in my life never happened."

Does it get any more insightful than that?"

Um, yes. Yes it does. Quite, as a matter of fact.
promethean75
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Re: Collective Corruption

Post by promethean75 »

"Well, everything you enjoy today has been brought to you by all that bullshit."

Ho lee shit, you just said that to moi? ROFLing. Capitalism is the WORST thing to ever happen to me. Imma holla atcha... hold on I'm at Snoopy's. Order #52.
Age
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Re: Collective Corruption

Post by Age »

simplicity wrote: Sun Dec 26, 2021 10:07 pm
Age wrote: Sun Dec 26, 2021 12:31 pmThe purpose of 'collective' might be to keep things 'the same' and to not 'effect change', at all.
Exactly. Collectivization is anti-democratic [in absolute terms]. It matters not what the interests are, only that the process consolidates resources/power to specific ends.

Collectivization is just not a tactic the Left has embraced, as groups and group-think is ubiquitous, it's just that they take it to the extreme. Anything taken to the extremely is doomed to failure.
Are you saying here that if the WHOLE group takes 'peaceful behaviour', for an example, to the so-called "extreme", then this is doomed to failure?

If yes, then WHY?
Age
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Re: Collective Corruption

Post by Age »

simplicity wrote: Sun Dec 26, 2021 10:32 pm
promethean75 wrote: Sun Dec 26, 2021 9:35 amThat dreaded question I hoped would never be asked, because the truth is, there will be no more real revolutions. Save for the occasional coup by some soft pseudo-leftist party in a small, half-wit country somewhere - which ends up fundamentally changing nothing - anything more would undoubtedly be a pathological mockery provided and sold to us by some capitalist who's captured the image on a t-shirt or in a movie....
Actually, revolutions are on-going and in a period as turbulent as the one we now find ourselves, there are a myriad of major ones out there now.

Capitalism will change [or disappear] when something better comes along. I've read a lot of economics but there isn't anybody who has a clue what might eventually replace it.
I KNOW EXACTLY what WILL and DOES replace 'economics/capitalism'
simplicity wrote: Sun Dec 26, 2021 10:32 pm It's much like transportation...we all know it's going to radically change in the future, but nobody knows exactly how [because the infinite steps leading up to such transformation (that control the process) are too far out].
REALLY, and you KNOW this HOW?
simplicity wrote: Sun Dec 26, 2021 10:32 pmThe human mind is simply not capable of this type of understanding [or any for that matter].
Well considering thee Fact that there is NO "human mind" this is one pretty BIG CLAIM you have made here. Are you now ABLE to back up and support this CLAIM of yours with some ACTUAL evidence, let alone REAL PROOF?
simplicity wrote: Sun Dec 26, 2021 10:32 pmEverything is changing all the time. Where you are correct is in your appreciation that true revolution is internal. Gain the skills necessary so you can most efficiently and effectively go with the change...moment by moment.
And what, EXACTLY, are those 'skills', which you speak of here?
Age
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Re: Collective Corruption

Post by Age »

promethean75 wrote: Mon Dec 27, 2021 4:46 pm "All political systems are corrupt."

Perhaps, but attention should be given to the question of how to prevent it, or quickly rectify it, where and when it can't be prevented.
ALL corruption can ALWAYS be prevented.
promethean75 wrote: Mon Dec 27, 2021 4:46 pmTo do this, you have to collapse the hierarchical structures upon which it is built and open up routes of direct control, for the governed.

While the economic and political models of monarchism and feudalism gave way to a more decentralized model of power with the inception of free market capitalism, history inadvertently replaced an old despotic mode of tyranny with another more subtle one. The royal family of tyrants who ruled the peasants and serfs as slaves to the land, became the capitalist parasites that ruled the modern working class as slaves to the wage. Different economic model, same bullshit.

As long as capitalism remains, governments that rule in countries that practice capitalism, will become corrupt in ways that can't be interfered with by the working classes who are ruled by that government. The solution is to make the working classes the government itself. I mean goddamn it can't be made any simpler than that, folks.
Actually it CAN.
promethean75 wrote: Mon Dec 27, 2021 4:46 pm But again this wisdom belongs to the proletariat, not the bourgeoisie. This is not a solution or change in government that the bourgeoisie would want, since clearly it would jeopardize their privilege of living for free as parasites on the back of the working classes.
simplicity
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Re: Collective Corruption

Post by simplicity »

Age wrote: Mon Dec 27, 2021 11:00 pm
simplicity wrote: Sun Dec 26, 2021 10:07 pm
Age wrote: Sun Dec 26, 2021 12:31 pmThe purpose of 'collective' might be to keep things 'the same' and to not 'effect change', at all.
Exactly. Collectivization is anti-democratic [in absolute terms]. It matters not what the interests are, only that the process consolidates resources/power to specific ends.

Collectivization is just not a tactic the Left has embraced, as groups and group-think is ubiquitous, it's just that they take it to the extreme. Anything taken to the extremely is doomed to failure.
Are you saying here that if the WHOLE group takes 'peaceful behaviour', for an example, to the so-called "extreme", then this is doomed to failure?

If yes, then WHY?
This is the argument that ever group makes [particularly those who wreck the most havoc]. For example, look at the Black Lives Matter protests in the US last year where the MSM reported all the peaceful protests in the middle of riots, looting, arson, murder, and all kinds of other mayhem.

Can you name for me any group that has not used their power to enforce their agenda on others?
simplicity
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Re: Collective Corruption

Post by simplicity »

Age wrote: Mon Dec 27, 2021 11:08 pm I KNOW EXACTLY what WILL and DOES replace 'economics/capitalism'
I'll take the bait.

Age wrote: Mon Dec 27, 2021 11:08 pmWell considering thee Fact that there is NO "human mind" this is one pretty BIG CLAIM you have made here. Are you now ABLE to back up and support this CLAIM of yours with some ACTUAL evidence, let alone REAL PROOF?
This is just an intellectual exercise. If you desire something real, that's [hopefully] on your path [to be discovered].
simplicity wrote: Sun Dec 26, 2021 10:32 pmEverything is changing all the time. Where you are correct is in your appreciation that true revolution is internal. Gain the skills necessary so you can most efficiently and effectively go with the change...moment by moment.
Age wrote: Mon Dec 27, 2021 11:08 pmAnd what, EXACTLY, are those 'skills', which you speak of here?
Adopt a technique which will allow you see things as close to the truth as is possible.
Age
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Re: Collective Corruption

Post by Age »

simplicity wrote: Mon Dec 27, 2021 9:45 pm
promethean75 wrote: Mon Dec 27, 2021 4:46 pm "All political systems are corrupt."

Perhaps, but attention should be given to the question of how to prevent it, or quickly rectify it, where and when it can't be prevented. To do this, you have to collapse the hierarchical structures upon which it is built and open up routes of direct control, for the governed.
Corruption emanates from human nature. Although it can be attenuated, it can never be eliminated.
Here is a GREAT EXAMPLE of WHY corruption persisted for so long, back in the "olden days", when this was being written.

Those people would, literally, 'try to' "justify" absolutely ANY and ALL of their Wrong behaviors, no matter how blatantly OBVIOUS those behaviors were Wrong or bad.

On just about EVERY occasion when people were pulled up, in the days when this was being written, for their Wrong behaving they continually used the "this is just human natural behavior" EXCUSE, with the further "rationalization" of "it can never be eliminated" added on, like above.

If those people, back in those days, had spend half as much time and effort into just CHANGING their Wrong ways, instead of 'trying to' "justify" or "rationalize" those Wrong behaviors, then human beings would have moved forward a LONG TIME AGO, and would ALREADY be living thee Truly peaceful and harmonious life, which 'you', human beings, are eventually bound to end up living in.

The corruption you ARE DOING, CAN BE ELIMINATED. You just have to Honest, and OPEN, about the corruption you do while just seriously WANTING TO eliminate it, and seriously WANTING TO CHANGE for the better.

That, with Honest reflection, is about all it takes to eliminate corruption and ALL of the other Wrong that 'you', adult human beings, do do.
simplicity wrote: Mon Dec 27, 2021 9:45 pm There have ALWAYS been and will ALWAYS be hierarchies [and thank God for that].
So what? This is certainly NO justification AT ALL for the Wrong ANY one does in the hierarchy.
simplicity wrote: Mon Dec 27, 2021 9:45 pm There are people who do things a great deal better than others. That's why it's the captain who flies the plane.
So what? Does this then give that one the right to be corrupt?
simplicity wrote: Mon Dec 27, 2021 9:45 pm
promethean75 wrote: Mon Dec 27, 2021 4:46 pmWhile the economic and political models of monarchism and feudalism gave way to a more decentralized model of power with the inception of free market capitalism, history inadvertently replaced an old despotic mode of tyranny with another more subtle one. The royal family of tyrants who ruled the peasants and serfs as slaves to the land, became the capitalist parasites that ruled the modern working class as slaves to the wage. Different economic model, same bullshit.
Well, everything you enjoy today has been brought to you by all that bullshit.
But, just as OBVIOUS is the Fact that EVERY thing you enjoy today could have been brought to you WITHOUT corruption, greed, NOR selfishness.
simplicity wrote: Mon Dec 27, 2021 9:45 pm Yes, history suggests that systems get better [on the whole], but you will always have a pecking order.
ONLY IF 'you' continue to make a so-called "pecking order".
simplicity wrote: Mon Dec 27, 2021 9:45 pm And why shouldn't there be. People who are willing to do more should receive more.
LOL ANOTHER GREAT EXAMPLE of just how these ones would 'try' just about ANY thing to "justify" or "rationalize" their Wrong, greedy, and selfish behaviors and ways.

simplicity wrote: Mon Dec 27, 2021 9:45 pm Otherwise, why do it?
BECAUSE one wants to HELP OUT in their community, for the benefit of ALL, which is ultimately "ourself", by the way.
simplicity wrote: Mon Dec 27, 2021 9:45 pm If you have been paying attention as you matured, you should have taken notice of how people seems to operate in groups [most (given their way) want to sit around and do nothing].
Is this REALLY what they WANT TO DO?

Is it NOT possible that they just do NOT want to do what ultimately just causes MORE GREED and SELFISHNESS to breed, which OBVIOUSLY means "others" MISS OUT on MORE or AGAIN?
simplicity wrote: Mon Dec 27, 2021 9:45 pm
promethean75 wrote: Mon Dec 27, 2021 4:46 pmAs long as capitalism remains, governments that rule in countries that practice capitalism, will become corrupt in ways that can't be interfered with by the working classes who are ruled by that government. The solution is to make the working classes the government itself. I mean goddamn it can't be made any simpler than that, folks.
Great idea. Then we can all live happily ever after. You want the best people doing what they do best. That's pretty simple.
There is NO such thing as "best people". There is, however, and IN FACT, just 'people',
simplicity wrote: Mon Dec 27, 2021 9:45 pm
promethean75 wrote: Mon Dec 27, 2021 4:46 pmBut again this wisdom belongs to the proletariat, not the bourgeoisie. This is not a solution or change in government that the bourgeoisie would want, since clearly it would jeopardize their privilege of living for free as parasites on the back of the working classes.
You need to change your calendar from 1850 to 2021.

Look out the window, most people are complete morons [you believe in a social theory that only six other people still believed in after the fall of the USSR]. You want people like yourself deciding the future?
Age
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Re: Collective Corruption

Post by Age »

simplicity wrote: Mon Dec 27, 2021 11:20 pm
Age wrote: Mon Dec 27, 2021 11:00 pm
simplicity wrote: Sun Dec 26, 2021 10:07 pm
Exactly. Collectivization is anti-democratic [in absolute terms]. It matters not what the interests are, only that the process consolidates resources/power to specific ends.

Collectivization is just not a tactic the Left has embraced, as groups and group-think is ubiquitous, it's just that they take it to the extreme. Anything taken to the extremely is doomed to failure.
Are you saying here that if the WHOLE group takes 'peaceful behaviour', for an example, to the so-called "extreme", then this is doomed to failure?

If yes, then WHY?
This is the argument that ever group makes [particularly those who wreck the most havoc].
WHY do 'you', adult human beings, in the days when this is being written, ASSUME the MOST IDIOTIC, RIDICULOUS, and ABSURD things from the words that I ACTUALLY USE?

WHAT ARGUMENT? I NEVER made ANY ARGUMENT. I JUST asked you a CLARIFYING QUESTION, with a FURTHER CLEAR CLARIFYING QUESTION for you to ELABORATE from.

PLEASE, STOP ASSUMING I am MEANING ANY thing, and just take my words, literally, on FACE VALUE, ONLY.

Also, YOUR CLAIM here could NOT BE MORE RIDICULOUS and IDIOTIC even if you WANTED IT TO BE.
simplicity wrote: Mon Dec 27, 2021 11:20 pm For example, look at the Black Lives Matter protests in the US last year where the MSM reported all the peaceful protests in the middle of riots, looting, arson, murder, and all kinds of other mayhem.
If they were NOT peaceful, then there were JUST 'NOT PEACEFUL'. No matter what ANY one says. End of story. But what you wrote here has ABSOLUTELY NOTHING WHATSOEVER AT ALL to do with what I ACTUALLY SAID, and MEANT.
simplicity wrote: Mon Dec 27, 2021 11:20 pm Can you name for me any group that has not used their power to enforce their agenda on others?
A Truly PEACEFUL GROUP.

Also, you are 'trying to' MANIPULATE the answer by asking, "... has not used THEIR POWER to enforce their agenda on others". To you, is there ANY way ANY one could use THEIR POWER, which would NOT be enforcing their agenda on others?

If yes, then how, EXACTLY?
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