Collective Corruption

[simplicity]

There are so many issues with collectivism that it might take until next Christmas to list and discuss them all, but perhaps the worst of the lot is the inherent corruption that defines every collective effort. After all, what is the purpose of a "collective" if it if not to pool resources and power to effect change...change that is only in-line with those who control the collective.

It has become quite popular [since the 1840's and Marx/Engels contribution to political economy] to criticize the only viable economic system that exists...capitalism. And considering the scope of a system as vast, there is certainly plenty to take issue with, but no more than any other system conjured up by the human mind. Paradoxes and disparities abound, but the main point is that this economic system has been able to propel the productivity of human beings beyond the stratosphere. Literally billions of people have been lifted out of abject poverty and now have the chance to live meaningful lives. Believe what you wish, people a century ago would not thought that this was possible [except the Utopians who always see the promised land just beyond the next massive tax increase].

If you study the capitalist system [leaving out the political non-sense], you will find a system that does several things incredibly well...allocation of resources, a democratic process deciding which products/services win or lose, and the creation of a surplus that has afforded many countries to construct infrastructure that is truly remarkable [ e.g., the American interstate highway system and the Japanese (and Chinese) bullet train systems].

The current economic problems we are having [that has been brewing for 100 years] finds its etiology almost exclusively with the corruption of the system [not the system itself]. As we stand in 2021, it is truly a miracle that the system can still operate considering the monkey wrenches politicians and the elite have thrown into the machinery of capitalist production. The introduction of full fiat currencies in the early 70's leading to the debasement and confiscation of wealth of the middle and lower classes should have been enough on its own to bring this system down, but the system has shown amazing resilience. Add in the corruption of nearly all markets [commodity and financial] and certainly you have a recipe for total disaster...and the piper must be paid [sooner or later].

It has always been my appreciation that when more than two adults gather, almost certainly trouble is on the horizon. The rise of collectivism once again is adding gasoline to a raging wildfire set by the very same forces. Even in it's nascent contemporary efforts, look at the mess that so-called progressives have brought to ordinary problems. Their inability to get beyond a single narrative condemns them to the failure that every collective has experienced. De-fund the police? Really? Could anything be more moronic? Is anybody surprised that crime has surged in the areas where politicians have bought into this lunacy?

The problem is corruption. The answer is transparency that comes with freedom and the dissemination of power. Further collectivization will only change the name in the box which indicates who is the beneficiary of the crimes against society. Apparently the Left believes it is their turn to help themselves to others' productivity [as a solution to the current corruption]. Interestingly, they might have gotten away with it but they are complete fools as anybody with an IQ over 50 can easily discern.

Collectivism should be about getting a group together to pick-up litter by the side of the road or organize a child's sporting event but never something as important as deciding how adults are the live and conduct their lives. This experiment has been tried over and over with the same disastrous result. Groups are not your friends. They want what you have and they can never obtain...human dignity that comes only from striking out on your own and facing life head-on.

Corruption is the enemy and collectivism breeds it like a blood ager Petri dish incubating at 98.6F.

[promethean75]

"There are so many issues with collectivism that it might take until next Christmas to list and discuss them all"

Perhaps, but there are so many problems with capitalism that it might take until next Christmas just to convince people that it might take until next Christmas to get them to read about them all....

https://www.quora.com/Do-you-hate-capit ... chtenstein

[promethean75]

Note to the above link: if and when anyone begins to realize just how little they know, and how wrong they may have been, just stop reading. Nobody said an unexamined life is not worth living, but Socrates. You ain't gotta examine anything, really.

[simplicity]

Perhaps, but there are so many problems with capitalism that it might take until next Christmas just to convince people that it might take until next Christmas to get them to read about them all....

Complaining about capitalism is like choosing to live in Iowa and then wondering why you can never find the exit off the 80 for the beach.

The system is what it is. It has good points and not so good points just like everything else. It is the challenge for humanity is to minimize the bad points [e.g., do what you can to enact freer, fairer financial laws, considerably limit the scope and power of corporations, and cut the size of government by 90%] and maximize the good points [which has been accomplished]. If you like stuff, organisations like Amazon and Costco have made this a consumer's paradise [as well as making basic commodities much more affordable for hundreds of millions].

If you only choose to see the negative, that becomes your life. Instead, put your energy in helping to ease the burden of those who are not as fortunate.

[promethean75]

"The system is what it is."

Are you saying the system is not what it isn't? Wait a minute wait a minute. This is that Aristotle stuff about A=A, right?

"It has good points and not so good points just like everything else."

Except collectivism, which only has not so good points. In fact, it would take until next Christmas to list them all.

"It is the challenge for humanity is to minimize the bad points [e.g., do what you can to enact freer, fairer financial laws, considerably limit the scope and power of corporations, and cut the size of government by 90%] and maximize the good points"

This is exactly what revolutionaries are not trying to do, right?

"If you like stuff, organisations like Amazon and Costco have made this a consumer's paradise [as well as making basic commodities much more affordable for hundreds of millions]."

Multiple choice. This is because:

1) bezos, brotman and sinegal and such nice guys.

2) commodities grow on trees

3) employees who produce products and services for these companies are paid so little, selling price can be relatively low and still generate astronomical profits.

"If you only choose to see the negative"

You don't mean like this, do you:

"There are so many issues with collectivism that it might take until next Christmas to list and discuss them all, but perhaps the worst of the lot is the inherent corruption that defines every collective effort."

"Instead, put your energy in helping to ease the burden of those who are not as fortunate."

Wait a minute. I thought that was what revolutionaries are trying to do. Fuck this is confusing.

[simplicity]

This is exactly what revolutionaries are not trying to do, right?

Wait a minute. I thought that was what revolutionaries are trying to do. Fuck this is confusing.

Allow me to assist you.

You see yourself as a revolutionary? Who [or what] exactly are you revolting against? Other than income redistribution, what exactly would you about any problem in particular [and what are you doing about it now]?

[Skepdick]

There are so many issues with collectivism that it might take until next Christmas to list and discuss them all, but perhaps the worst of the lot is the inherent corruption that defines every collective effort. After all, what is the purpose of a "collective" if it if not to pool resources and power to effect change...change that is only in-line with those who control the collective.

Nobody controls the collective. Top-down control is the illusion of most right-wingers which is why their knee-jerk response is misguided anti-authoritarianism.

Control is an illusion - society is self-organising. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self-organization

Also capitalism happens when collectives (humans) interact. I am not entirely certain what capitalism without collectivism looks like.

[promethean75]

"You see yourself as a revolutionary? Who [or what] exactly are you revolting against? Other than income redistribution, what exactly would you do about any problem in particular [and what are you doing about it now]?"

That dreaded question I hoped would never be asked, because the truth is, there will be no more real revolutions. Save for the occasional coup by some soft pseudo-leftist party in a small, half-wit country somewhere - which ends up fundamentally changing nothing - anything more would undoubtedly be a pathological mockery provided and sold to us by some capitalist who's captured the image on a t-shirt or in a movie....

"A revolutionary age is an age of action; ours is the age of advertisement and publicity. Nothing ever happens but there is immediate publicity everywhere. In the present age a rebellion is, of all things, the most unthinkable. Such an expression of strength would seem ridiculous to the calculating intelligence of our times. On the other hand a political virtuoso might bring off a feat almost as remarkable. He might write a manifesto suggesting a general assembly at which people should decide upon a rebellion, and it would be so carefully worded that even the censor would let it pass. At the meeting itself he would be able to create the impression that his audience had rebelled, after which they would all go quietly home--having spent a very pleasant evening." - Kierkegaard

Regarding revolutionary forum-talk, well, this is only a consequence of there being nothing more relevant to talk about. Because there really are no genuine philosophical problems, there is nothing left to do but... well, talk about the real problems the world is facing, which are economic and political. But such discourse never lasts for long before dissembling back into talking nonsense about Aquinas, paganism, platonic forms, monads, and meditating french philosophers who can't distinguish between their own dreams and waking life. I mean it's really bad, dude, the intellectual state of the world today. I believe there has been a permanent brain-freeze since the 19th century, largely induced by capitalism's hegemonic death grip on education and ideology.

But now a personal revolution is a different matter altogether, and always quite possible if one has a Ferrari (the Italian anarchist-illegalist, not the car)...

"You are waiting for the revolution! Very well! My own began a long time ago! When you are ready – God, what an endless wait! – it won’t nauseate me to go along the road awhile with you! But when you stop, I will continue on my mad and triumphant march toward the great and sublime conquest of Nothing!" - Renzo Novatore

[Age]

There are so many issues with collectivism that it might take until next Christmas to list and discuss them all, but perhaps the worst of the lot is the inherent corruption that defines every collective effort. After all, what is the purpose of a "collective" if it if not to pool resources and power to effect change...change that is only in-line with those who control the collective.

The purpose of 'collective' might be to keep things 'the same' and to not 'effect change', at all.

It has become quite popular [since the 1840's and Marx/Engels contribution to political economy] to criticize the only viable economic system that exists...capitalism.

'viable' in relation to 'what', EXACTLY?

And considering the scope of a system as vast, there is certainly plenty to take issue with, but no more than any other system conjured up by the human mind.

What, exactly, is this so-called "human mind" thing?

Paradoxes and disparities abound, but the main point is that this economic system has been able to propel the productivity of human beings beyond the stratosphere.

Well that could have been just as easily and just as simply done without 'capitalism'.

Literally billions of people have been lifted out of abject poverty and now have the chance to live meaningful lives.

LOL There was NO 'poverty' previously, and 'poverty' only came into existence partly because of things like 'capitalism', itself.

Believe what you wish, people a century ago would not thought that this was possible [except the Utopians who always see the promised land just beyond the next massive tax increase].

And, you are FREE to BELIEVE whatever you like as well.

If you study the capitalist system [leaving out the political non-sense], you will find a system that does several things incredibly well...allocation of resources, a democratic process deciding which products/services win or lose, and the creation of a surplus that has afforded many countries to construct infrastructure that is truly remarkable [ e.g., the American interstate highway system and the Japanese (and Chinese) bullet train systems].

And, if you study the capitalist system, you will find a system that does several things incredibly unwell, stupid, and idiotic.

The current economic problems we are having [that has been brewing for 100 years] finds its etiology almost exclusively with the corruption of the system [not the system itself].

But WHO created 'that system' where corruption is allowed to flourish and breed?

As we stand in 2021, it is truly a miracle that the system can still operate considering the monkey wrenches politicians and the elite have thrown into the machinery of capitalist production.

But there are only so-called "elites" because of a system like the capitalist system

The introduction of full fiat currencies in the early 70's leading to the debasement and confiscation of wealth of the middle and lower classes should have been enough on its own to bring this system down, but the system has shown amazing resilience. Add in the corruption of nearly all markets [commodity and financial] and certainly you have a recipe for total disaster...and the piper must be paid [sooner or later].

It has always been my appreciation that when more than two adults gather, almost certainly trouble is on the horizon. The rise of collectivism once again is adding gasoline to a raging wildfire set by the very same forces. Even in it's nascent contemporary efforts, look at the mess that so-called progressives have brought to ordinary problems. Their inability to get beyond a single narrative condemns them to the failure that every collective has experienced. De-fund the police? Really? Could anything be more moronic? Is anybody surprised that crime has surged in the areas where politicians have bought into this lunacy?

The problem is corruption. The answer is transparency that comes with freedom and the dissemination of power. Further collectivization will only change the name in the box which indicates who is the beneficiary of the crimes against society. Apparently the Left believes it is their turn to help themselves to others' productivity [as a solution to the current corruption]. Interestingly, they might have gotten away with it but they are complete fools as anybody with an IQ over 50 can easily discern.

Collectivism should be about getting a group together to pick-up litter by the side of the road or organize a child's sporting event but never something as important as deciding how adults are the live and conduct their lives. This experiment has been tried over and over with the same disastrous result. Groups are not your friends. They want what you have and they can never obtain...human dignity that comes only from striking out on your own and facing life head-on.

Corruption is the enemy and collectivism breeds it like a blood ager Petri dish incubating at 98.6F.

[Gary Childress]

Corruption is the enemy and collectivism breeds it like a blood ager Petri dish incubating at 98.6F.

I think I agree with a lot of your sentiments but for what I believe are some differences with our usage of various words. In my vocabulary, "capitalism" essentially means private ownership over the means of production (potentially as well as private ownership over other prominent social institutions such as media and services). Where private individuals control public institutions for their own benefit there will (almost by definition) inevitably be corruption. (Think how capitalists created monopolies in the 1800s over things like oil, banking, steel and railroads and then used their economic power to further manipulate public policy to perpetuate their monopolies) I think it would be more accurate to say that corruption is the enemy of collectivism. "Collectivism" implies something being administered for the common benefit of all. That is all the word means. It doesn't imply anything about whether or not there is a government or how a government works. If a public institution is being administered for the private benefit of a few, then it would be false to call it "collectivist." So, what the Democratic Party in the US does for the sake of its few insiders is not "collectivism" any more than North Korea is a "democratic" peoples' republic.

[promethean75]

"Corruption is the enemy and collectivism breeds it like a blood ager Petri dish incubating at 98.6F."

In fact, it's a system of vertical government and separation of powers that does this, not a horizontal Marxist government run by direct mandate and recall.

The former system - fake-ass representational democracy - creates a hierarchy of special interest groups that can lobby for control and manipulate the natural course of things against the best interests of the people. Problem here is you got too many chiefs and not enough indians, running things.

The latter system puts control directly in the hands of the peeps. And governing commenses through a sophisticated process of immediate democratic communication and decision making. Everybody would have a proleshariat app on their phone. The best ideas for solving any given problem emerge through a natural selection. Very pragmatic and effective. Niggas get immediate results. None of this filibuster and gerrymandering bullshit.

[Impenitent]

the ministry of truth has done its job

-Imp

[simplicity]

Nobody controls the collective. Top-down control is the illusion of most right-wingers which is why their knee-jerk response is misguided anti-authoritarianism.

Control is an illusion - society is self-organising. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self-organization

So all the time, effort and treasure spent to influence people is for naught?

[simplicity]

The purpose of 'collective' might be to keep things 'the same' and to not 'effect change', at all.

Exactly. Collectivization is anti-democratic [in absolute terms]. It matters not what the interests are, only that the process consolidates resources/power to specific ends.

Collectivization is just not a tactic the Left has embraced, as groups and group-think is ubiquitous, it's just that they take it to the extreme. Anything taken to the extremely is doomed to failure.

[simplicity]

I think it would be more accurate to say that corruption is the enemy of collectivism. "Collectivism" implies something being administered for the common benefit of all. That is all the word means. It doesn't imply anything about whether or not there is a government or how a government works. If a public institution is being administered for the private benefit of a few, then it would be false to call it "collectivist." So, what the Democratic Party in the US does for the sake of its few insiders is not "collectivism" any more than North Korea is a "democratic" peoples' republic.

All groups corrupt despite the fact that they might have started off with the best intentions. One of the least corrupt institutions I can think of might be the Buddhist religion [which has still had its fair share of corruption over the centuries]. Can you imagine Jesus or Moses coming back to check out how their flocks were making out?

In the political sphere [and although you might have the occasional honorable guy/gal trying to do their best, the political process really doesn't allow anybody to get anywhere near power unless you have been vetted as corruptible. Look at Biden [and his family]...50 years with their mouths at the trough.

It comes down to the notion that only individuals are capable of true compassion where groups are relieved of this "burden."